End to homelessness group on Facebook

Kermit.de.frog

Tony EH wrote: »

We have a low wage economy.

What is the average industrial wage in Ireland compared to our peers?

The high taxes that eat in to our high wages a lot of that is going in to the welfare system.

We need lower taxes and less expenditure.

Amirani

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

I’ve been to Berlin a few times and isn’t nearly as bad.

There's over 7000 people sleeping rough in Berlin. You must not have been looking hard enough or in the right places.

Germany has a total homeless population of about 650,000, of which about 48,000 sleep on the streets. It's not even close to being a problem unique to Ireland.

bobbysands81

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Counter march is required pronto. This country is very generous to those in need.

You do realise that some homeless people are working full time?

dartboardio

Guys, the issue here in the Facebook group we are speaking about, is not in relation to low wages.

Majority of the members on said Facebook group don't work, and majority are on social welfare payments and have been for years, the majority on that group are the typical 'sponge off the government' types.

I know that sounds awful, but nobody on that group is looking for change in regards to economy, low wages.. Etc. They are all saying 'poor me, I had my first kid at 16, three more since, never worked a day in my life, still waiting for my free house'


Its embarrassing and needs to be closed, imo.

The real problem of homelessness is as described above, people working their arse off and still unable to fund their own housing or rent. Or people having to leave because landlord unfairly raising rent.

Tony EH

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

What is the average industrial wage in Ireland compared to our peers?

Who gives a fuck. It's not good enough to live here properly and even hope for the basics in life, like a roof over one's head.

It shouldn't cost so much in the first place.

banie01

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

According to Wikipedia UK has double the amount of homeless as us and the US has quite a bit less than us.
Again this is nothing to go by. Why compare ourselves with other countries ? I mean that’s not addressing the issue.
The rental problem is out of control and this needs to be tackled head on. This is why your seeing homeless getting worse in recent times. We are feeling the effects of the unstable rental market imo.

One needs to be very careful comparing the homeless numbers.
The UK/US and most other countries count those in emergency accommodation as being housed.

Ireland doesn't, and the plethora of homeless charities that are reliant upon inflating the actual number of homeless to ensure funding will keep it that way.

There is a relatively low number of rough sleepers, that is what homelessness is.
There is a large cohort of strategic homelessness, that is advised and supported by those charities.
Similar to how we had a large cohort who chose to game their mortgage provider over the recent past.

The rental market is hugely distorted, and artificially inflated to a large extent by the subsidised HAP and other rental supports.
That needs to be addressed.
What also needs to be addressed is the gaming of the numbers by the homeless charities, aswell as the gaming of the social housing system and the sense of entitlement that many have to to subsidised homes.

collywobble7

Deleted User wrote:

I really hate the "end homelessness" argument. You can't just give the majority of homeless a house as they have no life skills and they will destroy it. Have any of ye ever seen the inner workings of a homeless hostel? It's like Beirut. Whilst I agree a lot can be done for them, the money would be better put into addiction services and mental health.

Away with you with your common sense

Berserker

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

I’ve been to Berlin a few times and isn’t nearly as bad.

Have to disagree with you on that. Berlin was horrific. Probably the worst I've seen Europe. Stuttgart was terrible also but I may have just seen the worst of both cities.

Eric Cartman

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

I understand you’ve been travelling on a professional basis well done for that but the stats are all over the internet and some of these cities don’t actually have as bad homelessness.
Here’s a list of cities doing better than ourselves.

Germany
Finland
Spain
Italy
Norway
Portugal
Poland
Romania.

Where have you actually travelled in Europe ?

in terms of rough sleepers, germany, portugal and romania are definitely infinitely worse off than we are in this regard.

in terms of people putting themselves on a list for a free house, yeah we have a pretty high number but we count differently and a lot more generously than most other countries.

Blaizes

Berserker wrote: »

Manchester has a massive issue with drugs. 'Spice' is a huge problem there for some reason. The number of homeless people around Picadilly Gardens is scary.



We've lost two lads of late in work. They've had enough of the cost of renting and they've decided to move to abroad for work. Both of them are software engineers with plenty of experience.

More power to them, my own nieces and nephews (two just finished college are going abroad after Christmas)as they just can’t afford to stay here.

banie01

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

I understand you’ve been travelling on a professional basis well done for that but the stats are all over the internet and some of these cities don’t actually have as bad homelessness.
Here’s a list of cities doing better than ourselves.

Germany
Finland
Spain
Italy
Norway
Portugal
Poland
Romania.

Where have you actually travelled in Europe ?

Far enough to know the difference between a city and a country for one.

Your use and understanding of numbers and statistics is skewed by the criteria used to actually measure homelessness.
What is homeless in Ireland, is not homeless in the vast majority of other OECD members.

Tony EH

banie01 wrote: »

There is a relatively low number of rough sleepers, that is what homelessness is.

No, it isn't and it's never been counted like that.

Homeless is "without fixed abode".

It doesn't just mean sleeping rough.

dartboardio

Most in emergency accomodation are people who have never worked/and wait for a free house, going homeless rather than work to provide a home for their offspring.


Anyway, in relation to other eu countries.. Yes, just look at Germany and any of the main cities. I had families of six sleeping outside my hotel, buggies and all, on the cold hard ground.

banie01

Tony EH wrote: »

No, it isn't and it's never been counted like that.

Homeless is "without fixed abode".

It doesn't just mean sleeping rough.

You seem to have deliberately misunderstood my thrust?
Rough sleepers are how other countries collate their homeless numbers.


Living in a Shelter/Family Hub/Hotel or other form of emergency accommodation in Ireland means you are homeless
Which is the Irish standard for counting it.
It is not how it is counted elsewhere.
.

In other OECD countries, it doesn't.

Bigmac1euro

Amirani wrote: »

There's over 7000 people sleeping rough in Berlin. You must not have been looking hard enough or in the right places.

Germany has a total homeless population of about 650,000, of which about 48,000 sleep on the streets. It's not even close to being a problem unique to Ireland.

I wasn’t in Berlin looking for homeless people. While I did spot a small few it was nothing in comparison to Dublin. Dublin is a much smaller denser city though so that’s probably why it’s easier to spot.
Walk up Henry street or over the Liffey you’ll spot at least 10/15
Where as if you cover that distance in Berlin you might spot 2.

Eric Cartman

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

I wasn’t in Berlin looking for homeless people. While I did spot a small few it was nothing in comparison to Dublin. Dublin is a much smaller denser city though so that’s probably why it’s easier to spot.
Walk up Henry street or over the Liffey you’ll spot at least 10/15
Where as if you cover that distance in Berlin you might spot 2.

or if you stand in the middle of alexanderplatz you'll see about 20, if you go in to any park at night you'll have 6-7 rummaging for plastic bottles to get a return on. Berlin absolutely has a lot more rough sleepers than dublin in actuality, per capita whatever.

weldoninhio

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

I understand you’ve been travelling on a professional basis well done for that but the stats are all over the internet and some of these countries don’t actually have as bad homelessness.
Here’s a list of cities doing better than ourselves.

Germany
Finland
Spain
Italy
Norway
Portugal
Poland
Romania.

Where have you actually travelled in Europe ?

None of those are cities.

Bigmac1euro

banie01 wrote: »

Far enough to know the difference between a city and a country for one.

Your use and understanding of numbers and statistics is skewed by the criteria used to actually measure homelessness.
What is homeless in Ireland, is not homeless in the vast majority of other OECD members.

Clearly was a mistake I did mean country.
How do we know these countries don’t measure homelessness in a similar fashion ?

Tony EH

banie01 wrote: »

You seem to have deliberately misunderstood my thrust?
Rough sleepers are how other countries collate their homeless numbers.


Living in a Shelter/Family Hub/Hotel or other form of emergency accommodation in Ireland means you are homeless
Which is the Irish standard for counting it.
It is not how it is counted elsewhere.
.

In other OECD countries, it doesn't.

How Homelessness is collated varies from country to country and organisations, such as ETHOS, have been trying to come up with common definitions. It isn't just a case of the "OECD" doing it differently than here.

Bigmac1euro

dartboardio wrote: »

Most in emergency accomodation are people who have never worked/and wait for a free house, going homeless rather than work to provide a home for their offspring.

How do you know that ? I’m genuinely curious.

atilladehun

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

According to Wikipedia UK has double the amount of homeless as us and the US has quite a bit less than us.
Again this is nothing to go by. Why compare ourselves with other countries ? I mean that’s not addressing the issue.
The rental problem is out of control and this needs to be tackled head on. This is why your seeing homeless getting worse in recent times. We are feeling the effects of the unstable rental market imo.

I think you're kinda right asking why compare ourselves with other countries as it doesn't fix the problem. It's the first step in recognising that our government and country is caught up in an economic system of borrow and hope the cost of everything keeps going up to pay for the borrowing. It's not the current lots fault, and I don't think it's really fixable, the system is so big and we're so small but that's just the way it is.

dartboardio

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

How do you know that ? I’m genuinely curious.

Im on about this group on Facebook, most, or at least half or more, of the people on the group saying 'poor me' are people sharing their life stories, the usual, had a baby at sixteen, signed on the housing list straight away, stay at home minding their kids everyday and never plan on working, yet expect the government to fund the roof over their heads.

I dunno the actual statistic but I would not be surprised if most that are in emergency accomodation are on SW payments through choice.. Not having a physical or mental disability or similar.

I know there are many hard working families in emergency accomodation also, but not as much.

Bigmac1euro

Eric Cartman wrote: »

or if you stand in the middle of alexanderplatz you'll see about 20, if you go in to any park at night you'll have 6-7 rummaging for plastic bottles to get a return on. Berlin absolutely has a lot more rough sleepers than dublin in actuality, per capita whatever.

I literally only stayed in the Park inn.
That giant building in the middle of Alexanderplatz and I think I seen about 3.

banie01

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

Clearly was a mistake I did mean country.
How do we know these countries don’t measure homelessness in a similar fashion ?

Feel free to go to each countries relevant government department website and it will outline their statistical criteria.
There is no set formula and many countries with less exuberant charity sectors present very different criteria.

Surely before you would claim that there is an equivalence in the international homelessness rates, you would at least ensure that the data is all measures in the same basis?

Rather than making broad statistical claims, that when actually compared like for like are meaningless?

You have a strange eye for detail, not noticing 7000 rough sleepers in Berlin?
But automatically assuming that the 10-15 you passed near Henry st are indicative of Ireland having a far worse problem?

It's not often I'm ever on a thread where I find myself clicking like on one of Eric Cartman's posts...
Yet you lowered me to that.

You have started from a flawed thesis, you need to defend why your numbers are right.
You need to defend the equivalence you claim between the international rates, not ask "how do we know?"

banie01

Tony EH wrote: »

How Homelessness is collated varies from country to country and organisations, such as ETHOS, have been trying to come up with common definitions. It isn't just a case of the "OECD" doing it differently than here.

Tony, rather than waffle on.
Present the like for like numbers then?

kildare lad

As long as people drink and take drugs there'll always be homelessness, I know a few lads that ended up homeless and living in hostels, their families , friends etc just had enough of them . I'd love to know the actual number of people living on the street who arent addicts , I'd say it's very low.

banie01

kildare lad wrote: »

As long as people drink and take drugs there'll always be homelessness, I know a few lads that ended up homeless and living in hostels, their families , friends etc just had enough of them . I'd love to know the actual number of people living on the street who arent addicts , I'd say it's very low.

It's not that clear cut.
I know people who are clean, employed and qualified who are priced out of where they want to live.

kenmm

dartboardio wrote: »

I dunno the actual statistic but I would not be surprised if most that are in emergency accomodation are on SW payments through choice.. Not having a physical or mental disability or similar.

I would be surprised if anyone chose to put themselves under such stress. Its easy to repeat this claim over and over (Not saying there are no scammers or chancers) but generally people are not choosing this 'lifestyle'.

Tony EH

banie01 wrote: »

Tony, rather than waffle on.
Present the like for like numbers then?

I don't know the "like for like" numbers. Neither do you.

That's not what I'm getting at either. The point, which has flown over your head, is that being homeless doesn't just mean sleeping rough, neither in Ireland, the UK or many other countries.

Bigmac1euro

dartboardio wrote: »

Im on about this group on Facebook, most, or at least half or more, of the people on the group saying 'poor me' are people sharing their life stories, the usual, had a baby at sixteen, signed on the housing list straight away, stay at home minding their kids everyday and never plan on working, yet expect the government to fund the roof over their heads.

I dunno the actual statistic but I would not be surprised if most that are in emergency accomodation are on SW payments through choice.. Not having a physical or mental disability or similar.

I know there are many hard working families in emergency accomodation also, but not as much.

Look it pisses me off as much as the next person to see how people who can clearly work choose not to and are trying to get “the free house”
But I’m starting to think it’s not as common as some people on this forum make out. There’s students and people renting rooms out going to food shelters at night in Dublin City because they can’t afford food. I seen today in O’Connell street about 30 people surrounding a charity worker handing out doughnuts it was pretty grim. The people grabbing the doughnuts just gave me this overwhelming sad feeling. It’s tough out there. I think we need to be more aware of the issues around us at the moment and maybe a protest for the government to start taking more action is not such a bad thing and start incentivising LL’s. We need to keep the gov on their toes. I’ve had the comfort of always having a roof over my head but i cant imagine having nowhere to go, it must be terrifying and for the kids. Especially for the average working joe it’s so close for any single person to become homeless and struggle to get a place to live or am I just a sucker for now thinking this way ?
I literally just did a complete u-turn lately on what I thought about the homeless problem. I did think it was all social welfare sponges but I think I may have spent too long on certain threads on this forum.