End to homelessness group on Facebook

kenmm

Deleted User wrote: »

whitewashing is also of no use, however.

Absolutely - hence wanting to know if there any reliable published sources of facts.

Stories about someone on the internet reading other stories on facebook doenst help.

kenmm

is_that_so wrote: »

The numbers aren't really known until Welfare investigate. I regularly see fraud figures of €500m bandied about. Welfare are always investigating.


https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0916/1076240-fraud-welfare/

ye - I dont think there are any hard stats published- that 500mil covers a lot - including bogus self employment - class S directors (acting as employees) and other situations.

Only 95million on SW over payment, which is obviously not a small amount of money, but in the business of gov spending and as a % of all that social welfare covers isnt so much.

kenmm

kenmm wrote: »

Absolutely - hence wanting to know if there any reliable published sources of facts.

Stories about someone on the internet reading other stories on facebook doenst help.

no, its true

but you're also never going to get a study that cleanly enumerates the number of people:

- sleeping rough but really its mental health/drugs
- in emergency accommodation but would not be so if they didnt see a forever home at the end of it
- on a housing list but likewise as above
- in receipt of rent subsidies but working, or have undeclared income or partner
- in receipt of rent subsidies but well fit to work and earn if this was enforced

all of these are real and add significantly to the declaration of figures, making the problem very difficult to define and address.

and thats my experience as a not-totally unsympathetic frontline officer of several years.

if you are concerned about the overall issue, the above instances have to be addressed for any number of good reasons

if you are especially concerned about the genuine cases, then the above cases have to be addressed with all the more urgency, because they are the chancers obfuscating the issues and clogging the limited resources available

kenmm

Deleted User wrote: »

no, its true

but you're also never going to get a study that cleanly enumerates the number of people:

- sleeping rough but really its mental health/drugs
- in emergency accommodation but would not be so if they didnt see a forever home at the end of it
- on a housing list but likewise as above
- in receipt of rent subsidies but working, or have undeclared income or partner
- in receipt of rent subsidies but well fit to work and earn if this was enforced

all of these are real and add significantly to the declaration of figures, making the problem very difficult to define and address.

and thats my experience as a not-totally unsympathetic frontline officer of several years.

if you are concerned about the overall issue, the above instances have to be addressed for any number of good reasons

if you are especially concerned about the genuine cases, then the above cases have to be addressed with all the more urgency, because they are the chancers obfuscating the issues and clogging the limited resources available

ye - and I am just trying to work out what problems our society has.

It seems every boards thread on homelessness jumps right on (what I guess) are a minority of people living in emergency accommodating to somehow scam the system.
Of course there will always be a few a-holes with an over inflated sense of entitlement.. but there are still (surely) a majority of emergency accommodation individuals who are genuinely homeless, with all the effects that has on a persons health and well being.

kenmm

And lets face it - its Ireland we are talking about - there seems to be a level of p!ss taking and abuse of systems here that is more generally accepted than in other countries (and I mean this across the board, in all walks of life).

Bigmac1euro

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

Just thought I’d share this, it has 60k members and looks like lots of people are planning a march on the 5th of December. I think it’s about time people hit the streets. But I’m not sure how this problem is solved. This group appears to have gained momentum.
Thoughts ?

Link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/487072738687586/?ref=share


Also I’m in no way affiliated with organisers etc of this group and I’m a long time poster here but just thought I’d share as I joined the group and keep reading posts and it makes for pretty depressing reading how badly some are struggling.
It actually put me in bad humour this morning.

I see they are getting stick for saying that a girl passed out drunk is homeless!

dartboardio

Umm quick update.

On the Facebook group there are people sharing stories of being evicted, due to not paying rent etc fair enough.. Yet there are others egging on eachother, telling eachother 'don't dare move out it'll take years for the landlord to bring you to court' encouraging them to make the landlords life hell basically?




Illegally squatting, encouraging this behaviour. Absolutely crazy!

Bigmac1euro

Had to leave that group... People haven’t got their priorities right. Hopefully a protest can push the government about less tax for LL’s and sticking a rent cap per square meter but it’s never going to happen. The group has been taken over by freegaff4lifers by the looks of it. Although some really really decent people still there bringing food to the homeless and people donating items. It is a positive group overall. I’m still stuck in the middle about the whole thing.

_Brian

_Brian wrote: »

I was in doctors maybe two years ago and two people were talking across the waiting room to each other.

Are you still living in same house?
Yea, it’s basically free so we’d be mad to move.
Any other news?
No, we were in Spain last week.
What’s x doing with himself?
He’s working away for cash, it’s handy as we keep entitlements
Dead right, any other plans?
Yea we’ll get away for two weeks in the summer.

Is this verbatim, paraphrased or just made up?

Always Tired

_Brian wrote: »

Ireland’s “entitlement to free stuff” crisis is way bigger than its homelessness crisis.

We’re into a viscous cycle not as the feeling entitled brigade have sufficient numbers that we have politicians who pander to their needs, promoting being entitled to everything free as a decent lifestyle choice and so more and more choose it, giving said politicians a bigger voting base supporting them.

We can’t just keep giving out free or dirt cheap housing to everyone who classifies themselves as homeless. That’s banana republic stuff as someone has to pay for these houses with more and more taxation.

I was in doctors maybe two years ago and two people were talking across the waiting room to each other.

Are you still living in same house?
Yea, it’s basically free so we’d be mad to move.
Any other news?
No, we were in Spain last week.
What’s x doing with himself?
He’s working away for cash, it’s handy as we keep entitlements
Dead right, any other plans?
Yea we’ll get away for two weeks in the summer.

Yeah that happened.

banie01

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

Had to leave that group... People haven’t got their priorities right. Hopefully a protest can push the government about less tax for LL’s and sticking a rent cap per square meter but it’s never going to happen. The group has been taken over by freegaff4lifers by the looks of it. Although some really really decent people still there bringing food to the homeless and people donating items. It is a positive group overall. I’m still stuck in the middle about the whole thing.

Welcome back
Any input on your new improved number after your extensive research? and it's validity as a point of comparison?

Can I hope for an acknowledgement of it actually being an issue?
Don't even want an apology

Bigmac1euro

banie01 wrote: »

Welcome back
Any input on your new improved number after your extensive research? and it's validity as a point of comparison?

Can I hope for an acknowledgement of it actually being an issue?
Don't even want an apology

An apology ? For what ?
What on earth are you smoking ?
Are you ok ?
How’s your thesis going ? Lol

I had to laugh when I read this desperate reply looking for a good oul argument. Keep trying though. Appreciate the laugh I’ve gotten from your posts so far Haha!

banie01

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

An apology ? For what ?
What on earth are you smoking ?
Are you ok ?
How’s your thesis going ? Lol

I had to laugh when I read this desperate reply looking for a good oul argument. Keep trying though. Appreciate the laugh I’ve gotten from your posts so far Haha!

I'm not looking for an argument, you are the one who started the thread, spewed BS about numbers and disappeared when presented the proof of variance you asked for.

But you stay classy

VinLieger

Sounds like apollo house 2.0, no doubt brendan ogle is pushing the buttons for this somewhere just waiting to squirrel away whatever proceeds are gotten from this to help fund his next failed attempt at getting elected

Seth Brundle

VinLieger wrote: »

Sounds like apollo house 2.0, no doubt brendan ogle is pushing the buttons for this somewhere just waiting to squirrel away whatever proceeds are gotten from this to help fund his next failed attempt at getting elected

Was it ever revealed where the Apollo House money went?

Bigmac1euro

banie01 wrote: »

I'm not looking for an argument, you are the one who started the thread, spewed BS about numbers and disappeared when presented the proof of variance you asked for.

But you stay classy

Thanks for your terrible input to the conversation.
Numbers either you or I can prove, I won’t be spending time researching the figures either which aren’t easy to find. It’s done, let’s move on shall we.

banie01

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

Thanks for your terrible input to the conversation.
Numbers either you or I can prove, I won’t be spending time researching the figures either which aren’t easy to find. It’s done, let’s move on shall we.

Terrible input? Care to point out what was so terrible about looking for you to clarify and support your claim?
You claimed numbers as accurate.
You presented nothing to support them other than your feelings and a couple of homework websites.

You were provided an OECD document outlining why the numbers you pulled from Wiki are unreliable.
A document that was referenced in the 1st paragraph of the Wiki page you used, yet you ignored it.

I don't need to "prove" a number, as I've made no argument based on any.
You however, have!

I have said you are relying on poor data and even provided you a starting point for looking for the right data and I've presented evidence illustrating that.
I don't expect you to hold your hands up to being wrong or not having a notion of how to research, support or defend your position but others reading the thread are welcome to their own conclusions.

For the sake of the thread however, I do feel it's important to be clear that your feelings, impressions and guesses are not substantiated by any actual evidence nor do you seem to have the inclination or the strength of conviction to research, support or present actual evidence for the numbers you claimed.

I'm quite happy to leave it there.

weldoninhio

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Was it ever revealed where the Apollo House money went?

I only asked him that yesterday.

Bigmac1euro

banie01 wrote: »

Terrible input? Care to point out what was so terrible about looking for you to clarify and support your claim?
You claimed numbers as accurate.
You presented nothing to support them other than your feelings and a couple of homework websites.

You were provided an OECD document outlining why the numbers you pulled from Wiki are unreliable.
A document that was referenced in the 1st paragraph of the Wiki page you used, yet you ignored it.

I don't need to "prove" a number, as I've made no argument based on any.
You however, have!

I have said you are relying on poor data and even provided you a starting point for looking for the right data and I've presented evidence illustrating that.
I don't expect you to hold your hands up to being wrong or not having a notion of how to research, support or defend your position but others reading the thread are welcome to their own conclusions.

For the sake of the thread however, I do feel it's important to be clear that your feelings, impressions and guesses are not substantiated by any actual evidence nor do you seem to have the inclination or the strength of conviction to research, support or present actual evidence for the numbers you claimed.

I'm quite happy to leave it there.

You’d argue with the wall if you thought it would argue back lol

banie01

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

You’d argue with the wall if you thought it would argue back lol

Highlighting a lack of factual basis or substantive basis for a poor hypothesis isn't arguing.
It's debate, its healthy, it opens paths to new ideas, new understanding and even compromise when one has a fuller grasp of a problem.

VinLieger

weldoninhio wrote: »

I only asked him that yesterday.

Fvcking LOL


The guy is scum

Eric Cartman

weldoninhio wrote: »

I only asked him that yesterday.

‘Spent on great causes’
So funding his pr campaign then....

Niallof9

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

According to Wikipedia UK has double the amount of homeless as us and the US has quite a bit less than us.
Again this is nothing to go by. Why compare ourselves with other countries ? I mean that’s not addressing the issue.
The rental problem is out of control and this needs to be tackled head on. This is why your seeing homeless getting worse in recent times. We are feeling the effects of the unstable rental market imo.

wait what....

stuff like this helps nobody. Yes its getting worse. yes its more visible. But lumping it all into emotive irish exceptionalism helps nobody. Then you need to separate the issues. High rents is one, high rents leading to homelessness another. Homelessness due to mental health, drugs anther and so on

https://www.thejournal.ie/fact-check-homeless-2-3693945-Nov2017/

there's no question we have a massive problem. But there's also no doubt in the age of unfettered capitalism, peace and full globalization homelessness isn't a full blown crisis worldwide.

there's no ending homelessness unless we do away with things like capitalism and globalisation

Niallof9

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

Broken record.
Back up your point, you can do it I believe in you.
Show us that we measure homelessness different to most other countries in the world.

https://www.thejournal.ie/fact-check-homeless-2-3693945-Nov2017/

banie01

Niallof9 wrote: »

wait what....

stuff like this helps nobody. Yes its getting worse. yes its more visible. But lumping it all into emotive irish exceptionalism helps nobody. Then you need to separate the issues. High rents is one, high rents leading to homelessness another. Homelessness due to mental health, drugs anther and so on

https://www.thejournal.ie/fact-check-homeless-2-3693945-Nov2017/

there's no question we have a massive problem. But there's also no doubt in the age of unfettered capitalism, peace and full globalization homelessness isn't a full blown crisis worldwide.

there's no ending homelessness unless we do away with things like capitalism and globalisation

Ah now don't go confusing him with actual evidence
He feels like it's worse and won't be doing any research to back up those feelings...

He's the Jedi empath of homeless research and he just knows!

Funnily enough when asked to back up his feelings with evidence gets a bit shirty and deflective.

biko

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

An apology ? For what ?
What on earth are you smoking ?
Are you ok ?
How’s your thesis going ?

A helpful page here on How to Use Question Marks
https://www.wikihow.com/Use-Question-Marks

Bigmac1euro

Niallof9 wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/fact-check-homeless-2-3693945-Nov2017/

In fairness it quotes multiple times that they can’t actually compare the data because it’s a mess. Verdict: Unproven is mentioned a number of times.

The study which was carried out by a student from trinity used a similar method for the way Ireland calculates homeless data and this graph showed Ireland getting worse year on year. (More dole 4 lifers or genuine cases is anyone’s guess)

Every country has problems with welfare fraud though we aren’t as bad as people make out imo even though it might seem like it. The Finnish argue the same problems we do week in week out. The difference though is they actually gave a lot of homeless people apartments and there wasn’t as many on the street as there is in Dublin it so it seems.
These apartments weren’t very desirable or in a desirable location but that seems fair enough to me. I was in a few fairly run down apartments but still they kept a roof over the heads of people with serious mental and addiction problems.
They also housed their students and the military youth during their conscription.

It’s clearly obvious the data is not available but using your own eyes is probably more accurate when comparing rough sleepers.

And comparing Germany and Finland I felt Ireland was worse. Again I could be wrong. I was only in Berlin in Germany and 2 cities in Finland when I lived there.
But when comparing all 3 capitals
Berlin, Helsinki and Dublin
I seen a lot worse problems in terms of accommodation in Dublin and what seemed like homeless on the streets.

What I previously speculated but didn’t say for fact was that maybe we are quite bad in terms of people being homeless and living on the streets.
I quoted a Wikipedia article as a rough reference to homeless figures.

Sloppy_Joe

This is a tricky one because one one hand I think we should all take to the streets over the state of the property market here.

But on the other hand, I know it's nigh on impossible for these protests about the property market to happen without being taken over and seen as people wanting free houses in the city.

CatFromHue

weldoninhio wrote: »

I only asked him that yesterday.

on great causes, really great ones, the best

punisher5112

Them nights out do take a toll so a day or 2 in a spa might have helped him you just never know and as there is no transparency then can any believe anything he is spouting out.....

All these charities imo are the same and maybe some were set up originally for the good but it's big business and the pay to staff especially CEO and so on are laughing all the way to the bank.