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Civil service monitoring time away from desk

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    #62
    channelsurfer2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,610 ✭✭✭channelsurfer2


    Sounds like a newly promoted manager trying to impress. Don't clock out. Watch your attendance and do contact forsa urgently


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    #63
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 35,029 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Chaos Black wrote: »
    I doubt the manager is doing it by stopwatch though- you could just have something count the time computers/IM are inactive/away.

    There is no way in hell they are doing that without co-operation of IT and they will have a dozen better things to be doing than facilitating a micromanaging little hitler who's just invented their own weirdo HR policy. That's before they mention GDPR.

    Anyway a PC won't lock for 5 or 10 minutes after you leave it idle so that won't work.

    Seems to me this is all empty threats - not that that makes it any less stupid and wrong.

    salonfire wrote: »
    You are not using it to count towards another day off though.

    It doesn't count towards another day off though, it's part of the standard hours, only time worked above standard hours counts towards 'another day off'.

    A lot of people seem to have real difficulty understanding this, but it's not at all hard - Flexi time does not change how many hours are worked, just when and on what days they are worked.


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    #64
    LegallyAbroad
    Registered Users Posts: 352 ✭✭LegallyAbroad


    salonfire wrote: »
    That's not correct.

    Only after 4.5 hours is a break required, and that's lunch.

    There is no basis for the morning break.
    Probably far longer than 15 mins taken as well that adds up nicely towards a day's flexitime.

    Multiply this piss taking across the civil service and it's costing a fortune.

    It's worth noting that only parts of the CS and only certain grades within the CS have flexi time and/or tea breaks.

    However, in both the private and public sector, people take informal tea breaks all the time, it's called going out for coffee. They also do informal flexi-time. If you work for weeks on a deal until the small hours, you might take a day or two off when it's finished.


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    #65
    Pauliedragon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,768 ✭✭✭Pauliedragon


    Can people not multi task anymore? Bring your tea to the jacks and make your calls whilst on the throne.


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    #66
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 35,029 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Could turn the office chairs into commodes. (Average age in the civil service is going through the roof so win-win)


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    #67
    Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Could turn the office chairs into commodes. (Average age in the civil service is going through the roof so win-win)

    Adult nappies are very affordable (apparently). No need for any bathroom breaks then.


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    #68
    doughef
    Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭doughef


    I think the OP and his cronies are a prime example of what’s rotten in the civil service.

    Obviously, someone is taking the piss ., but nobody addresses it ...
    So the whole ‘your entitled to this / that / go to the union etc ....

    Load of shyte ...

    It’s impossible to monitor everyone all the time - manager sounds like a clown too ...

    Clowns managing hot headed union lick arses !!

    And nobody doing any work except monitoring each other’s breaks (which ironically- is when there not working also)


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    #69
    whippet
    Registered Users Posts: 7,687 ✭✭✭whippet


    as someone who has only ever worked in the private sector I find this absolutely crazy on all levels

    This to me looks like the results of generations of unionisation and institutionalised suspicions - employers being suspicious of the employees and vice versa.

    Being at a desk is not being productive - all it proves is that the arse was in position. So when unions and management can only agree on a single factor to determine the level of work being done - as in being present - you get this notion that any time spent away from the desk isn't working and anytime at the desk is working.

    Where I work its like a alternate universe - my boss wouldn't have a clue where I was physically 80% of the time - and i'd say he couldn't care less where I am. He would have no idea when I start my days work or when I finish - but he does know exactly what I bring to the organisation in terms of value for money. And that is all that matters.

    But it seems stuff like this is impossible to implement in the CS due to this total disconnect between two opposing sets of people - the employees want to do just enough to satisfy what the union has agreed and the management who need to ensure that this is met. Whereby in the private sector it is in everyone interest for the good of the organisation to succeed and in the main everyone has skin in the game to ensure everyone works to achieve the overall goals


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    #70
    AulWan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭AulWan


    Please note, as has been been pointed out more than once on this thread, the case in the original post is very extreme and not at all typical of the Civil Service.


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    #71
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    whippet wrote: »
    as someone who has only ever worked in the private sector I find this absolutely crazy on all levels

    This to me looks like the results of generations of unionisation and institutionalised suspicions - employers being suspicious of the employees and vice versa.

    Being at a desk is not being productive - all it proves is that the arse was in position. So when unions and management can only agree on a single factor to determine the level of work being done - as in being present - you get this notion that any time spent away from the desk isn't working and anytime at the desk is working.

    Where I work its like a alternate universe - my boss wouldn't have a clue where I was physically 80% of the time - and i'd say he couldn't care less where I am. He would have no idea when I start my days work or when I finish - but he does know exactly what I bring to the organisation in terms of value for money. And that is all that matters.

    But it seems stuff like this is impossible to implement in the CS due to this total disconnect between two opposing sets of people - the employees want to do just enough to satisfy what the union has agreed and the management who need to ensure that this is met. Whereby in the private sector it is in everyone interest for the good of the organisation to succeed and in the main everyone has skin in the game to ensure everyone works to achieve the overall goals

    I've met as many wasters in the private sector as I have in the civil service. Half my office aren't even in the union. The most dedicated people I've met have been in the civil service as if we screw something up it means the people we support have to sort it out and there is a genuine want not to let that particular group down.


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    #72
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 29,078 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    whippet wrote: »
    as someone who has only ever worked in the private sector I find this absolutely crazy on all levels

    This to me looks like the results of generations of unionisation and institutionalised suspicions - employers being suspicious of the employees and vice versa.

    Being at a desk is not being productive - all it proves is that the arse was in position. So when unions and management can only agree on a single factor to determine the level of work being done - as in being present - you get this notion that any time spent away from the desk isn't working and anytime at the desk is working.

    Where I work its like a alternate universe - my boss wouldn't have a clue where I was physically 80% of the time - and i'd say he couldn't care less where I am. He would have no idea when I start my days work or when I finish - but he does know exactly what I bring to the organisation in terms of value for money. And that is all that matters.

    But it seems stuff like this is impossible to implement in the CS due to this total disconnect between two opposing sets of people - the employees want to do just enough to satisfy what the union has agreed and the management who need to ensure that this is met. Whereby in the private sector it is in everyone interest for the good of the organisation to succeed and in the main everyone has skin in the game to ensure everyone works to achieve the overall goals

    Presenteeism isn't unique to the public sector. There are many kinds of jobs where being present at your desk or location IS essential, including call centres and customer service centres.

    This is a call centre.


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    #73
    whippet
    Registered Users Posts: 7,687 ✭✭✭whippet


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Presenteeism isn't unique to the public sector. There are many kinds of jobs where being present at your desk or location IS essential, including call centres and customer service centres.

    This is a call centre.

    that is true - however my point was more about the inherent suspicions that exist between employee and management.

    This is driven by hours / work productivity being negotiated by suits and beards ... especially when specific hours are the key to the negotiations ... this leaves next to no flexibility in actual work practices .. and encourages out of date management styles.


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    #74
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,990 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    whippet wrote: »
    as someone who has only ever worked in the private sector I find this absolutely crazy on all levels

    This to me looks like the results of generations of unionisation and institutionalised suspicions - employers being suspicious of the employees and vice versa.

    Being at a desk is not being productive - all it proves is that the arse was in position. So when unions and management can only agree on a single factor to determine the level of work being done - as in being present - you get this notion that any time spent away from the desk isn't working and anytime at the desk is working.

    Where I work its like a alternate universe - my boss wouldn't have a clue where I was physically 80% of the time - and i'd say he couldn't care less where I am. He would have no idea when I start my days work or when I finish - but he does know exactly what I bring to the organisation in terms of value for money. And that is all that matters.

    But it seems stuff like this is impossible to implement in the CS due to this total disconnect between two opposing sets of people - the employees want to do just enough to satisfy what the union has agreed and the management who need to ensure that this is met. Whereby in the private sector it is in everyone interest for the good of the organisation to succeed and in the main everyone has skin in the game to ensure everyone works to achieve the overall goals


    +1
    In the private sector myself following a couple of years in a semi state. Not exactly civil service but it's practically the same.


    Until recently I reported to someone not even based in this country so I could be at home (and was sometimes), in the office, or anywhere inbetween. Once my work was done it was irrelevant. This idea of "time served" is very prevalent in old school civil servants who had become institutionalised.


    I firmly believe that the vast majority of the civil service suffers from brain drain. The high achievers leave for the private sector, so you're left with the low achievers and the new entrants.


    I actually spend a lot of my time on boards.ie during the day and do most of my work at home in the evening. It aligns better with those in other locations who I dialog with. Yet some folks here would deem me unproductive because I'm only on site 2-4 days a week and usually on the internet for half of it!


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    #75
    AulWan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭AulWan


    It always amazes me how so many people who have never worked in the civil service, think they know so much about working in the civil service.


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    #76
    whippet
    Registered Users Posts: 7,687 ✭✭✭whippet


    AulWan wrote: »
    It always amazes me how so many people who have never worked in the civil service, think they know so much about working in the civil service.

    Cos most of us know people working in the CS and hear this sort of nonsense all the time.

    Plus .. this very thread gives an indication of what ‘managers’ can get away with in the CS !!

    It’s amazing how some CS workers can’t see the woods for the trees and how successful business actually operate


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    #77
    AulWan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭AulWan


    I guess you missed the whole bit about this NOT being at all typical in the CS, despite it being mentioned several times on thread. :rolleyes:


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    #78
    whippet
    Registered Users Posts: 7,687 ✭✭✭whippet


    AulWan wrote: »
    I guess you missed the whole bit about this NOT being at all typical in the CS, despite it being mentioned several times on thread. :rolleyes:

    No I didn’t ... I just said that nonsense management practices like what the OP is describing is a symptom of a culture like there is in the CS ... by its very nature it’s outdated and inefficient .. and that is the same around the world .. it won’t change and we can’t expect it to change but I will reserve the right to call it for what it is.


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    #79
    whippet
    Registered Users Posts: 7,687 ✭✭✭whippet


    Anyway this is veering off topic ...


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    #80
    AulWan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭AulWan


    whippet wrote: »
    No I didn’t ... I just said that nonsense management practices like what the OP is describing is a symptom of a culture like there is in the CS ... by its very nature it’s outdated and inefficient .. and that is the same around the world .. it won’t change and we can’t expect it to change but I will reserve the right to call it for what it is.

    I've been in the CS for over 30 years and there has been MASSIVE changes to the culture of the CS. The CS of today is unrecognisable from that of even 10 years ago, yet people still buy into all the old myths of lazy civil servants.

    It really gets old, listening to it. Especially if youve been listening to it for as long as I have.


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    #81
    whippet
    Registered Users Posts: 7,687 ✭✭✭whippet


    Ok point made .. but when you hear stories like the OP coupled with what I hear on a daily basis by a sibling who is in the CS I’d say there is plenty more reform needed


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    #82
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 29,078 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    whippet wrote: »
    that is true - however my point was more about the inherent suspicions that exist between employee and management.

    This is driven by hours / work productivity being negotiated by suits and beards ... especially when specific hours are the key to the negotiations ... this leaves next to no flexibility in actual work practices .. and encourages out of date management styles.
    whippet wrote: »
    Cos most of us know people working in the CS and hear this sort of nonsense all the time.

    Plus .. this very thread gives an indication of what ‘managers’ can get away with in the CS !!

    It’s amazing how some CS workers can’t see the woods for the trees and how successful business actually operate


    Read through other threads in this forum and you'll see similar mismanagement and mistrust in many private sector businesses, particularly those in lower pay environments, retail, hospitality, call centres and more.


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