Why aren't you a vegan!?

gozunda

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I never heard of the China Study until now a little bit of internet searching and you get the likes of this.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-china-study-revisited/

The China Study is based on a study first undertaken in 1973–75 which has since been widely debunked by academics and others. Unfortunately that does not stop been endlessly mined for the usual propaganda.

Unearthly

gozunda wrote: »

From who? - Repeating some alleged personal style attack? I wasnt engaged in any discussion at that point and I did not see my name mentioned before that. And yes it's also incorrect. If someone has then that's attacking the poster and against boards ToU afaik.

I was called a preachy vegan for using 'appeal to nature fallacy'

You then agreed with me later on in this very thread. I was making a point that it couldn't possibly be a preachy vegan if you agreed with me. Nothing more to it. Cross wires

Xcellor

Morris Moss wrote: »

Yep totally agree a physically demanding job and veganism are not compatible at all.

Rubbish. Plant based foods have carbohydrates which convert to usable energy much easier than meat / fat.

Unearthly

decky1 wrote: »

Have worked on the building sites all my life, never met a Vegan on one yet. Reason ---they would'nt have the physical strength to lay blocks or plaster all day long, you need to eat meat to give you strength, not this false strength they get in Gym's etc. spoke on similar subject here before 2 vegans on oil rig , lasted a week had to be airlifted home as they were both on death's door both bodybuilder's and vegan.

You are using anecdotal evidence to form an opinion. In science this is not a credible form of evidence

Unearthly

atticu wrote: »

Did you mean preachy posts like this?

All I see is an opinion. Are opinions being preachy now?

Is the person who said eating meat is mandatory to be healthy being preachy or just having an opinion?

gozunda

Unearthly wrote: »

I was called a preachy vegan for using 'appeal to nature fallacy'
You then agreed with me later on in this very thread. I was making a point that it couldn't possibly be a preachy vegan if you agreed with me. Nothing more to it. Cross wires

I think mine was mainly a tongue in cheek comment about the whole 'appeal to nature' thing as the same is regularly used to promote veganism lol.

Look I dont want any beef with anyone (sorry!) And that tidbit is complete bolloxology and news to me btw! Eitherway anyone throwing around that type of rubbish simply shows where the real aggression lies ...

IrishKev

ted1 wrote: »

Only 18% of calories come from livestock but it takes up 83% of farmland. Is that not concerning?

Source? If this were true (which is probably isn't) why would it be concerning? Calories aren't the enemy.

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I am sorry this is just ridiculous we are humans top of the chain, the most intelligent mammal that is why we can cook other animals before we eat them. An animal is a resource the leather on your shoes, coat and belt, the meat, the milk, eggs etc.
If you want to behave like a herbivore that is fine by me.
But don't go coming out with ridiculous analogies. It is almost as if you are apologising for being human!

I don't believe that animals are resources. I used to, then I saw where leather came from. It's a cruel industry and one that we don't need. But that's my view.

decky1 wrote: »

Have worked on the building sites all my life, never met a Vegan on one yet. Reason ---they would'nt have the physical strength to lay blocks or plaster all day long, you need to eat meat to give you strength, not this false strength they get in Gym's etc. spoke on similar subject here before 2 vegans on oil rig , lasted a week had to be airlifted home as they were both on death's door both bodybuilder's and vegan.

The 'real men eat meat' marketing strategy has been fed to us for years - but it's simply not true. Case in point would be 'Steak for breakfast' McGregor getting well beaten by Nate Diaz, who follows a plant-based diet.

emaherx wrote: »

Also, we are not the only animals that will drink another animals milk and nearly all animals will eat eggs. Poor Kevs mind would be blown wide open if he looked around. We are also not the only creatures on this planet to keep another species as livestock.

On the cooking of food humans don't particularly on a raw vegetable diet either.

'Poor' me is just fine thanks.

Name me another species that consistently forcibly impregnants another animal in order to take its breastmilk.

emaherx

IrishKev wrote: »

Source? If this were true (which is probably isn't) why would it be concerning? Calories aren't the enemy.



I don't believe that animals are resources. I used to, then I saw where leather came from. It's a cruel industry and one that we don't need. But that's my view.



The 'real men eat meat' marketing strategy has been fed to us for years - but it's simply not true. Case in point would be 'Steak for breakfast' McGregor getting well beaten by Nate Diaz, who follows a plant-based diet.



'Poor' me is just fine thanks.

Name me another species that consistently forcibly impregnants another animal in order to take its breastmilk.

Can't think of one which uses AI.
But some ants milk aphids, even keep them as livestock keeping productive ones alive while culling and eating the ones that become unproductive.


Edit: forcibly impregnate what a fantastic term. Do you think cows get a choice with a bull? You know the option to say no? #mootoo!
I have seen a bull force a cow to stand from lying down just to drink her milk.

gozunda

IrishKev wrote: »

Source? If this were true (which is probably isn't) why would it be concerning? Calories aren't the enemy.

It's inaccurate in that it selectively uses the data apparently for the purposes of pushing a plant based diet ...

This from the FAO:

Animal food sources make a vital contribution to global nutrition and are an excellent source of macro- and micronutrients. Livestock products make up 18% of global calories, 34% of global protein consumption and provides essential micro-nutrients, such as vitamin B12, iron and calcium. Livestock use large areas of pastures where nothing else could be produced. Animals also add to agricultural production through manure production and drought power. Further, keeping livestock provides a secure source of income for over 500 million poor people in many in rural areas...

This study determines that 86% of livestock feed is not suitable for human consumption. If not consumed by livestock, crop residues and by-products could quickly become an environmental burden as the human population grows and consumes more and more processed food. Animals also consume food that could potentially be eaten by people

http://www.fao.org/ag/againfo/home/en/news_archive/2017_More_Fuel_for_the_Food_Feed.html

I don't believe that animals are resources. I used to, then I saw where leather came from. It's a cruel industry and one that we don't need. But that's my view.

That's fine if thats your view. But leather here is simply the use of what cannot be eaten. Yes leather comes from cattle after they are killed for food - it always has.

Name me another species that consistently forcibly impregnants another animal in order to take its breastmilk.

What is this obsessive compulsion with how a cow gets pregnant? A cow will stand ready once in heat whether that is a bull or otherwise. Yes milk is a foodstuff that is a valuable food source to many millions of poor people worldwide. India alone has some 175 million 'dairy' farms - most with just a few animals which provide a valuable and nutritious source of food.

Do you know that ants capture, farm and milk aphids? Do you know that humans do many things other species do not - like drive cars. Can you imagine an animal which destroys other habitats to rip metal ores out of the ground to make into a box with wheels which they then run down other animals! Crazy eh?

Sir Guy who smiles

emaherx wrote: »

Can't think of one which uses AI.

They lack opposable thumbs.

emaherx

IrishKev wrote: »

Source? If this were true (which is probably isn't) why would it be concerning? Calories aren't the enemy.



I don't believe that animals are resources. I used to, then I saw where leather came from. It's a cruel industry and one that we don't need. But that's my view.



The 'real men eat meat' marketing strategy has been fed to us for years - but it's simply not true. Case in point would be 'Steak for breakfast' McGregor getting well beaten by Nate Diaz, who follows a plant-based diet.



'Poor' me is just fine thanks.

Name me another species that consistently forcibly impregnants another animal in order to take its breastmilk.

You said a horse milking a cow would blow your mind. Funny I couldn't find though I'm sure it's happened.


https://youtu.be/SBUNmqF04_A

Say my name

ted1 wrote: »

Only 18% of calories come from livestock but it takes up 83% of farmland. Is that not concerning?

I'm not sure that's true.

It would be interesting to see the figures on the breakdown of nutrients from each.

I'm not sure if it's been posted before but people have to eat and only a small percentage of land is suitable for tillage.

Sir Guy who smiles

emaherx wrote: »

You said a horse milking a cow would blow your mind. Funny I couldn't find though I'm sure it's happened.


https://youtu.be/SBUNmqF04_A

I posted a link to it earlier. Imagine my surprise when the goalposts had moved in the meantime!

Deebles McBeebles

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Obviously cats drink milk I have never seen a cat turn milk down because it came from a cow. Mice like cheese.

People like smoking and alcohol. Dogs sometimes eat sh*te. Whats your point?

IrishKev

emaherx wrote: »

Can't think of one which uses AI.
But some ants milk aphids, even keep them as livestock keeping productive ones alive while culling and eating the ones that become unproductive.


Edit: forcibly impregnate what a fantastic term. Do you think cows get a choice with a bull? You know the option to say no? #mootoo!
I have seen a bull force a cow to stand from lying down just to drink her milk.

There's a big difference between natural reproduction and forced reproduction for the benefit of profit through selling the cow's milk.

gozunda wrote: »

It's inaccurate in that it selectively uses the data apparently for the purposes of pushing a plant based diet ...

This from the FAO:



http://www.fao.org/ag/againfo/home/en/news_archive/2017_More_Fuel_for_the_Food_Feed.html



That's fine if thats your view. But leather here is simply the use of what cannot be eaten. Yes leather comes from cattle after they are killed for food - it always has.

Another myth - leather is not a byproduct of the meat industry. It's a massive industry and can be just as profitable as beef/dairy. Leather also has a large carbon footprint.

Sir Guy who smiles wrote: »

I posted a link to it earlier. Imagine my surprise when the goalposts had moved in the meantime!

I replied to your comment and your PM pal, so not sure what you mean there.



Everyone has different views and that's fine. But slating vegans before considering their reasons for changing is narrow-minded. I'd invite anyone who is curious to watch this documentary and see if it makes them think even slightly differently.

Dominion

emaherx

IrishKev wrote: »

There's a big difference between natural reproduction and forced reproduction for the benefit of profit through selling the cow's milk.

Yes you are of course right a Bull tortures a cow for about 48h and when he's too tired every other cow in the herd has a go. AI takes about 2 minutes.

Morris Moss

Xcellor wrote: »

Rubbish. Plant based foods have carbohydrates which convert to usable energy much easier than meat / fat.

What's rubbish, all I said was a physical job doesn't suit veganism, if I have meat with dinner I can power on till the evening, with a salad I'll be hungry in half an hour.

gozunda

IrishKev wrote: »

There's a big difference between natural reproduction and forced reproduction for the benefit of profit through selling the cow's milk.

Its called food production. It happens all over the world. Theres also a big difference between natural plant growth and forced cultivation of the soil for the benefit of profit through selling vegetables!

Another myth - leather is not a byproduct of the meat industry. It's a massive industry and can be just as profitable as beef/dairy. Leather also has a large carbon footprint.

Eerh no its not. What exactly do you think we do with the hide after a animal is processed for food??? In Ireland leather comes from the large meat plants

We do not have any agriculture here which produces animals solely for leather. Leather is a by product and is not wasted.

Tbh I reckon you may have been watching one to many whacky foreign based propaganda films pushed by various corporate and lifestyle plant food interests. Like the one you've linked to below about agriculture in Australia of all places :rolleyes:

Everyone has different views and that's fine. But slating vegans before considering their reasons for changing is narrow-minded. I'd invite anyone who is curious to watch this documentary and see if it makes them think even slightly differently.

https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko"]Dominion

Much like the China study - it's another load of poohey

Heres some alternative reading from someone who actually knows about animal farming in Australia. Give it a go...

https://permaculture.com.au/happen-animals-everyone-went-vegan/

Morris Moss

IrishKev wrote: »

There's a big difference between natural reproduction and forced reproduction for the benefit of profit through selling the cow's milk.



Another myth - leather is not a byproduct of the meat industry. It's a massive industry and can be just as profitable as beef/dairy. Leather also has a large carbon footprint.



I replied to your comment and your PM pal, so not sure what you mean there.



Everyone has different views and that's fine. But slating vegans before considering their reasons for changing is narrow-minded. I'd invite anyone who is curious to watch this documentary and see if it makes them think even slightly differently.

Dominion

Any thoughts about the China study being debunked?

Unearthly

Morris Moss wrote: »

What's rubbish, all I said was a physical job doesn't suit veganism, if I have meat with dinner I can power on till the evening, with a salad I'll be hungry in half an hour.

Then your salad lacked the required calories/protein/fibre/carbs etc

Unless you think all the salads are equal, which would be a silly point of view now wouldn't it.

Look it's ok to lack knowledge in nutrition. I would recommend researching it and you would benefit a lot from it

emaherx

IrishKev wrote: »

Everyone has different views and that's fine. But slating vegans before considering their reasons for changing is narrow-minded. I'd invite anyone who is curious to watch this documentary and see if it makes them think even slightly differently.

Dominion

That video makes me think that factory farms are aweful places, but it's hardly representative of all animal farming is it?

Plenty of food production for humans has a lot to answer for whether it is plant or meat based. Do you think the insects sprayed off your Vegetables are any less deserving of life?

Morris Moss

Unearthly wrote: »

Then your salad lacked the required calories/protein/fibre/carbs etc

Unless you think all the salads are equal, which would be a silly point of view now wouldn't it.

Look it's ok to lack knowledge in nutrition. I would recommend researching it and you would benefit a lot from it

Ah how very condsending of you, it's ok though I don't generally eat salad, I get plenty of nutrition from meat so I'm good.

IrishKev

gozunda wrote: »

Tbh I reckon you may have been watching one to many whacky foreign based propaganda films pushed by various corporate and lifestyle plant food interests. Like the one you've linked to below about agriculture in Australia of all places :rolleyes:

Much like the China study - it's another load of poohey

Heres some alternative reading from someone who actually knows about animal farming in Australia Give it a go...

https://permaculture.com.au/happen-animals-everyone-went-vegan/

What exactly about it is a 'load of poohey'? It's not fictional. It's real footage.

Meat is a supply and demand business - the only reason the animals exist is due to the massive demands. No more demand = no more supply.

I won't lower myself to condescending remarks and rolled eyes emojis.

Morris Moss wrote: »

Any thoughts about the China study being debunked?

While there are some points that can be challenged - not debunked as you say, there are far more points that outweight the book's message.

emaherx wrote: »

That video makes me think that factory farms are aweful places, but it's hardly representative of all animal farming is it?

Plenty of food production for humans has a lot to answer for whether it is plant or meat based. Do you think the insects sprayed off your Vegetables are any less deserving of life?

Personally, I draw the line where the intention is. If I walk in a forest chances are I'll trod on some insects unintentionally. That's completely different to raising an animal specifically for profiting from their death.

Morris Moss wrote: »

Ah how very condsending of you, it's ok though I don't generally eat salad, I get plenty of nutrition from meat so I'm good.

Look up some of the Happy Pear recipes and see how many are 'salads'.

ted1

emaherx wrote: »

Not really, nature can live happily alongside livestock. Ploughs on the other hand do much more damage.

You’d think that, but first to have to deforest the land , and clear it to grown animal feed and for putting cows out to pasture .

You come across to me, as a NRA , oil or tobacco industry representative.

gormdubhgorm

ted1 wrote: »

You’d think that, but first to have to deforest the land , and clear it to grown animal feed and for putting cows out to pasture .

You come across to me, as a NRA , oil or tobacco industry representative.

Shouldn't that start with an 'I' instead of an N?
It amusing how you use an American reference it sums up the lack of awareness of Ireland. Ireland is a beef producing country one the best in the world at it. It is critical to the Irish economy.
It is also still a largely rural based society compared to many countries.

Yet you come out with statements about the NRA sums up veganism for me.
That 'veganised' people are largely influenced by outside forces, and they do not really appreciate thier own country.

emaherx

ted1 wrote: »

You’d think that, but first to have to deforest the land , and clear it to grown animal feed and for putting cows out to pasture .

You come across to me, as a NRA , oil or tobacco industry representative.

No I'm a farmer who farms cattle extensively and have not hidden that fact. I don't own a gun, an oil well or any tobacco plants so that's a little unfair.

My cattle are fed only what grows on my farm. There is plenty of activity nature wise that is undisturbed by my cattle, if I grew serials or veg on my farm there would be far more destruction to nature.

I have not deforested any land, fairly sure the Britt's cut down our forests for commercial timber. I have planted many trees and plan on planting more but they won't be forest and don't have to be. Forest cover in this country is on the increase at 11% now up from 1% planted mostly by farmers.

gozunda

IrishKev wrote: »

What exactly about it is a 'load of poohey'? It's not fictional. It's real footage.Meat is a supply and demand business - the only reason the animals exist is due to the massive demands. No more demand = no more supply. I won't lower myself to condescending remarks and rolled eyes emojis.

It's cherry picked footage of farms allegedly showing poor animal farming practises in Australia. The entire storyline is heavily biased and solely designed to promote veganism. Balanced it ain't. One thing for sure it is certainly not representative of farming here. So no idea why you are pushing that as being somehow enlightening about farming on an Irish based discussion forum.

Where there are poor practises in any type of food production - it is not an excuse to use such instances as a stick to beat everyone else with - it should be the reason for those responsible to be held accountable. For example you might want to look up the abuse issues of migrant labour and exploitation on vegetable farms in Spain and elsewhere.

As for supply and demand - consider this for comparison.

"Vegetables are a supply and demand business - the only reason such vegetables exist is due to the massive demands. No more demand = no more supply"

I made no "condescending remarks" - what I said is a reflection of your content and links as for example the film you linked ..

And emojis are part and parcel of boards. Sorry you dont like them. But hey ...

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

IrishKev

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Yet you come out with statements about the NRA sums up veganism for me.
That 'veganised' people are largely influenced by outside forces, and they do not really appreciate thier own country.

It comes across as very narrow minded if you tar all 'veganised' people with the same brush from one person's comment.

Also, 'outside forces'? That just sounds like a conservative us against them mentality. Appreciation of your own country and dietary choices don't really line up either.

emaherx

IrishKev wrote: »

It comes across as very narrow minded if you tar all 'veganised' people with the same brush from one person's comment.

Also, 'outside forces'? That just sounds like a conservative us against them mentality. Appreciation of your own country and dietary choices don't really line up either.

Says the person who wants to tar all livestock farmers with the same brush and constantly post very misleading information about same.

IrishKev

gozunda wrote: »

It's cherry picked footage of farms allegedly showing poor animal farming practises in Australia. The entire storyline is heavily biased and solely designed to promote veganism. Balanced it ain't. One thing for sure it is certainly not representative of farming here. So no idea why you are pushing that as being somehow enlightening about farming on an Irish based discussion forum.

Where there are poor practises in any type of food production - it is not an excuse to use such instances as a stick to beat everyone else with - it should be the reason for those responsible to be held accountable. For example you might want to look up the abuse issues of migrant labour and exploitation on vegetable farms in Spain and elsewhere.

As for supply and demand - consider this for comparison.

"Vegetables are a supply and demand business - the only reason such vegetables exist is due to the massive demands. No more demand = no more supply"

I made no "condescending remarks" - what I said is a reflection of your content and links as for example the film you linked ..

And emojis are sort and parcel of boards. Sorry you dont like them. But hey ...

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Sorry mate but that makes zero sense. Replacing something I said with the word 'vegetables' and sticking italics around it to make it sound legible doesn't really make a valid counter-argument.

Your link was making a silly argument that if everyone went vegan we would have a massive overpopulation of animals which is just untrue. The animals wouldn't be there if there wasn't a demand for them. That's just simple logic.

Regarding mistreatment of workers on vegetable farms - as I've said earlier, buy in season - buy local, buy organic and buy from who you know.

Edit: implying somebody is watching 'whacky foreign based propaganda films' is condescending, and makes you look narrow-minded. Just because something is 'foreign-based' as you put it doesn't make it unrelatable to Ireland.