New boiler installation issues

katief101

We had a new boiler installed in August. The guy we rang to do it is very reputable in the area we live in and we assumed he would do the job - he never mentioned otherwise. On the day it was being installed, another guy turned up and did the work and then the original guy came in when the work was complete and commissioned it. He didn’t really check any of the work though, was in our house maybe 5 minutes or even less.

We then noticed the radiators weren’t heating properly, most were lukewarm and the rest cold. After a few days of different fixes, he came back and flushed the radiators. These radiators were only 4 years old and had inhibitor added (which we told him). This didn’t work. He then came back and added a valve, drained the boiler and I’m not sure what else. The radiators were finally heating up however we now had another problem. The pressure on the boiler kept dropping and we had to keep topping up the water every week. After about a month of unanswered texts/calls he sent this same guy back to add a sealer. He added the sealer to the boiler and left.. all the rads in the house were now completely cold meaning we had no heating at all! No idea how this happened!

He came back and insisted on flushing rads again. He was very rude and told us that there is gunk in our system which isn’t his problem, also that the original guy we rang should have been doing this work anyway? Rads were lukewarm again and he left without even talking with us or giving an explanation. Told us he should be at another job and was very rude, aggressive even.

Got a call today from the original guy who wasn’t much better. Said he won’t be sending up anyone again, that there is gunk somewhere in the system and it’s nothing to do with the work they did and is our problem?! Asked him how we fix it and said we would pay for the fix as we just wanted it sorted and we’re desperate.. he said we would need to take up floorboards and he isn’t interested in doing that?

I’m so stressed and at a loss. I just had a baby and we need this sorted out before the cold weather comes in. Surely if he installed the boiler and we now have no heating he should fix it? I’m so confused.. Any advice? Should he be fixing it? Am I being unreasonable? Help!!

OwenM

If you keep having to add water then there is a leak, sadly this means digging up some floors. The plumbers you were dealing with are a disgrace TBH. Could you look at taking a claim in the small claims court or talk to a solicitor - maybe a solicitors letter would grab their attention.

Sleeper12

Adding fresh water constantly to the system can rot/rust the rads from the inside out. I'm not sure from the original post if the leak is sealed or not

Wearb

Why did you get a new boiler? Why the new Radiators? How old is the heating pipework?

Not having a go, just trying to get a handle on why this plumber is behaving like this.

katief101

Wearb wrote: »

Why did you get a new boiler? Why the new Radiators? How old is the heating pipework?

Not having a go, just trying to get a handle on why this plumber is behaving like this.

1) We had an old back boiler so replaced with a more efficient condensing boiler.
2) Bought the house 4 years ago and radiators needed to be replaced as they weren’t in good shape. We put in a new pump at the time and plumber recommended new rads new
3) They originally fed the boiler off the tank and they moved to a sealed system when we had the problem with the rads being cold
4) House was built in 1999

katief101

Also forgot to mention they added an auto Topup valve to keep water topped up. My husband is concerned about this as he thinks it will mask any problems and is a patch solution. I think he’s right. Am at a loss now as what to do, thinking maybe we should get RGII out to check the work maybe. Really don’t want the hassle of this though but don’t know what else to do. Also forgot to mention I can’t find the guy that actually did the work of the register on the RGII website. Feel like we have really been taken for mugs

K.Flyer

Was a magnetic filter fitted or the system power flushed clean?
If not, then from the sound of things its possible that dirt and hardened sludge has been disturbed during the installation and gone and blocked the system somewhere.
This is why so much emphasis is put on having central heating systems power flushed clean before installing a new boiler.
Otherwise they have made a serious error with the pipework.
The Auto filler is a mask and is not good for your heating system, especially if its known to be losing pressure.
RGII will only be concerned if the gas boiler has been installed in an un-safe manner and does not conform to regulations.

katief101

K.Flyer wrote: »

Was a magnetic filter fitted or the system power flushed clean?
If not, then from the sound of things its possible that dirt and hardened sludge has been disturbed during the installation and gone and blocked the system somewhere.
This is why so much emphasis is put on having central heating systems power flushed clean before installing a new boiler.
Otherwise they have made a serious error with the pipework.
The Auto filler is a mask and is not good for your heating system, especially if its known to be losing pressure.
RGII will only be concerned if the gas boiler has been installed in an un-safe manner and does not conform to regulations.

No magnetic filler or power flush done. I would have thought too that this was standard during these installations? According to the plumber the boiler and pipework going into into it is fine and the sludge/dirt in the system is our problem not his? Surely this is a load of rubbish. Would a power flush sort out the issue do you think?

Sleeper12

katief101 wrote: »

No magnetic filler or power flush done. I would have thought too that this was standard during these installations? According to the plumber the boiler and pipework going into into it is fine and the sludge/dirt in the system is our problem not his? Surely this is a load of rubbish. Would a power flush sort out the issue do you think?

Plumber might need to read installation instructions of the boiler so

K.Flyer

katief101 wrote: »

No magnetic filler or power flush done. I would have thought too that this was standard during these installations? According to the plumber the boiler and pipework going into into it is fine and the sludge/dirt in the system is our problem not his? Surely this is a load of rubbish. Would a power flush sort out the issue do you think?

Most boiler manufacturers state in their installation instructions that the heating system must be cleaned / flushed and a corrosion inhibitor added to the system, failure to do so may invalidate the warranty. You will need to look at the installation manual for your boiler for specific details. What is the make and model?
Irrespective, it is considered best practice to clean out the system beforehand and to add a magnetic filter, followed by inhibitors, balancing the system and ensuring all radiators are heading.
However, a new boiler installer cannot be held responsible if an existing heating system is already leaking in places that cannot be seen. Nor are they responsible for a poorly installed heating system that was badly done by someone else and will not work well unless the heating system is re-plumbed correctly.

katief101

K.Flyer wrote: »

Most boiler manufacturers state in their installation instructions that the heating system must be cleaned / flushed and a corrosion inhibitor added to the system, failure to do so may invalidate the warranty. You will need to look at the installation manual for your boiler for specific details. What is the make and model?
Irrespective, it is considered best practice to clean out the system beforehand and to add a magnetic filter, followed by inhibitors, balancing the system and ensuring all radiators are heading.
However, a new boiler installer cannot be held responsible if an existing heating system is already leaking in places that cannot be seen. Nor are they responsible for a poorly installed heating system that was badly done by someone else and will not work well unless the heating system is re-plumbed correctly.

He said there was no need to add inhibitor when we asked him. None of the above was done really. Also, I don’t know how we will know if the problem is with the old heating system or the install. We never had an issue with radiators heating with the old back boiler though, not once. When we said this he said that those issues wouldn’t have shown up on the old system? It’s all a bit of a mess. The boiler is a baxi megaflow

K.Flyer

See the outlined section in the attached image from the Baxi Megaflo Installation Manual..

katief101

K.Flyer wrote: »

See the outlined section in the attached image from the Baxi Megaflo Installation Manual..

Neither were done, don’t know where this leaves us next.. He is saying the problem is with the old system and not his problem and basically he is not calling again. He is getting more and more difficult to deal with. We could certainly bring this up with him as it’s in black and white but I don’t want to deal with another confrontation. If we were to get another plumber in does anyone know the cost of a power flush and to add inhibitor? Would this solve our problem? Our priority at the moment is to get the heating sorted with a baby in the house.

rightjob!

He really should have power flushed they system,or at least came to some sort agreement between you.
Inhibitor definitely should have been added.
Having an automatic filling valve on the system will only mask the problem and ruin the new boiler.
A power flush and magnaclean filter fitted to the boiler is a step in the right direction.
Where are you based?

John.G

katief101 wrote: »

We had a new boiler installed in August. The guy we rang to do it is very reputable in the area we live in and we assumed he would do the job - he never mentioned otherwise. On the day it was being installed, another guy turned up and did the work and then the original guy came in when the work was complete and commissioned it. He didn’t really check any of the work though, was in our house maybe 5 minutes or even less.

We then noticed the radiators weren’t heating properly, most were lukewarm and the rest cold. After a few days of different fixes, he came back and flushed the radiators. These radiators were only 4 years old and had inhibitor added (which we told him). This didn’t work. He then came back and added a valve, drained the boiler and I’m not sure what else. The radiators were finally heating up however we now had another problem. The pressure on the boiler kept dropping and we had to keep topping up the water every week. After about a month of unanswered texts/calls he sent this same guy back to add a sealer. He added the sealer to the boiler and left.. all the rads in the house were now completely cold meaning we had no heating at all! No idea how this happened!

He came back and insisted on flushing rads again. He was very rude and told us that there is gunk in our system which isn’t his problem, also that the original guy we rang should have been doing this work anyway? Rads were lukewarm again and he left without even talking with us or giving an explanation. Told us he should be at another job and was very rude, aggressive even.

Got a call today from the original guy who wasn’t much better. Said he won’t be sending up anyone again, that there is gunk somewhere in the system and it’s nothing to do with the work they did and is our problem?! Asked him how we fix it and said we would pay for the fix as we just wanted it sorted and we’re desperate.. he said we would need to take up floorboards and he isn’t interested in doing that?

I’m so stressed and at a loss. I just had a baby and we need this sorted out before the cold weather comes in. Surely if he installed the boiler and we now have no heating he should fix it? I’m so confused.. Any advice? Should he be fixing it? Am I being unreasonable? Help!!

Re topping boiler up, just to rule out any safety valve/expansion vessel problems, you might do the following checks, you will see a small bore pipe coming out of the wall behind or to the side of the boiler, just make sure that this isn't any water "leaking" out there. Preferably but not vital, turn off the supply to the auto fill valve, note the cold pressure and hot pressure when boiler/rads fully hot. Its unlikely but easily checked by doing the above that the leak is/isn't from your pipework.

katief101

Thanks for the advice, will try that. I’m based in the Tipperary area. Got up this morning (heating was on timed) and we now have only one radiator hot upstairs and one downstairs. The rest are cold. So stressful..

Dtp1979

I’m curious, how much was the install?

I Am The Law

In order to reduce stress,
break ties with the original plumbers,
find an RGI plumber to assess the fault,
Agree a plan to repair the fault,
If you still want to report the original plumbers, here's the link http://www.rgii.ie/help/report-an-illegal-gas-worker.2681.html

K.Flyer

Did you get a receipt / invoice and RGI Cert 2 after completion?

katief101

We got a cert (the boiler was commissioned.) Didn’t get a receipt but have the quote via text and we paid by cheque. Will have to try and find someone to come out today and will probably cost an arm and a leg. I’m on maternity leave so money is tight but have no other option by looks of things.

scamalert

had boiler install around same time this summer picked <mod snip> company, and was amazed, magna flow, valves replaced new boiler setup properly, BER cert, hive controls, all the fittings tagged signed off, pvr to outside done, think my one is auto filling, as pvr does flush sometimes a bit of excess, logic 25 combi boiler, total cost was 2.2k but most professional job ive seen done in 8 hours.


and any issues free call out. granted got lucky on who were the contractors but having company behind seems worth every cent.


Just advise if someone is looking to replace boiler.

as your story seems a bit like a quick one off, where even main installer couldnt be botherd - cash is main interest for such people not quality.


also my rads are like 20 years old but after initial check minimum amount of gunk was collected, did clean it 6mo later and it was small amount of sludge.

katief101

scamalert wrote: »

had boiler install around same time this summer picked <snip> company, and was amazed, magna flow, valves replaced new boiler setup properly, BER cert, hive controls, all the fittings tagged signed off, pvr to outside done, think my one is auto filling, as pvr does flush sometimes a bit of excess, logic 25 combi boiler, total cost was 2.2k but most professional job ive seen done in 8 hours.


and any issues free call out. granted got lucky on who were the contractors but having company behind seems worth every cent.


Just advise if someone is looking to replace boiler.

as your story seems a bit like a quick one off, where even main installer couldnt be botherd - cash is main interest for such people not quality.


also my rads are like 20 years old but after initial check minimum amount of gunk was collected, did clean it 6mo later and it was small amount of sludge.

Our job cost 2100. Where are this company based? Do you have contact details for them?
MOD NOTE. Details by PM please.

scamalert

NAME SNIPED dunno if it will be any help at this point thou, otherwise seems they operate country wide.


as found it hard to find decent company, but they had live chat phone support etc, and took less then 2 weeks since call to get everything done in single day, but as said they do use contractors who they hire, and yes some had bad cases but nothing major as you looking at reviews, as they do follow up on any issues.


not advertising in any way thou, as plenty to choose from, just finding right is the hardest part.

Dtp1979

scamalert wrote: »

had boiler install around same time this summer picked SNIP company, and was amazed, magna flow, valves replaced new boiler setup properly, BER cert, hive controls, all the fittings tagged signed off, pvr to outside done, think my one is auto filling, as pvr does flush sometimes a bit of excess, logic 25 combi boiler, total cost was 2.2k but most professional job ive seen done in 8 hours.


and any issues free call out. granted got lucky on who were the contractors but having company behind seems worth every cent.


Just advise if someone is looking to replace boiler.

as your story seems a bit like a quick one off, where even main installer couldnt be botherd - cash is main interest for such people not quality.


also my rads are like 20 years old but after initial check minimum amount of gunk was collected, did clean it 6mo later and it was small amount of sludge.

If they didn’t powerflush the system beforehand AND they fitted an auto filler or neglected to remove an existing one, then the job was far from professional.
Btw, the prv should never “flush”. That’s not it’s job. It’s meant to relieve excess pressure in the system. If you have excess pressure then you have a problem. One of the many problems associated with auto fillers.

katief101

It’s all a mess. They did keep coming back to try and sort issues but now I think they are just getting frustrated and have decided to wash their hands of it. He keeps saying it’s our system is the problem and nothing to do with the job they did? But at the end of the day we paid a lot of money for a new boiler and have no heating. When I asked how we would resolve issues with the existing system he wasn’t interested. So unprofessional.

Wearb

Dtp1979 wrote: »

If they didn’t powerflush the system beforehand AND they fitted an auto filler or neglected to remove an existing one, then the job was far from professional.
Btw, the prv should never “flush”. That’s not it’s job. It’s meant to relieve excess pressure in the system. If you have excess pressure then you have a problem. One of the many problems associated with auto fillers.

Just goes to show how difficult it is for general public to know what's professional. Often all they have to go on is a pleasant demeanor and someone talking the talk.

John.G

Wearb wrote: »

Just goes to show how difficult it is for general public to know what's professional. Often all they have to go on is a pleasant demeanor and someone talking the talk.

I think I've mentioned it before but because E.vessels are often installed with the filling pressure and initial (pre) pressure the same, this encourages the fitting of these auto fill valves as there is no water reserve in the E.vessel when cold. The filling pressure should always be 0.3/0.5 bar higher than the pre pressure which gives a few litres of water reserve in the E.vessel when cold and normally the system only requires topping up ~ once per year.
I have even seen a Grant installation guide stating the same pre pressure and filling pressure.

Wearb

John.G wrote: »

I think I've mentioned it before but because E.vessels are often installed with the filling pressure and initial (pre) pressure the same, this encourages the fitting of these auto fill valves as there is no water reserve in the E.vessel when cold. The filling pressure should always be 0.3/0.5 bar higher than the pre pressure which gives a few litres of water reserve in the E.vessel when cold and normally the system only requires topping up ~ once per year.
I have even seen a Grant installation guide stating the same pre pressure and filling pressure.

Exactly. Many years ago here on Boards, Shane and I discussed this in depth.
Some installers dont seem to get this.

CoBo55

Where is the circulation pump? Is it close to where the old back boiler was? There's a high possibility a lot of the sludge has ended up in the pump because on many back boiler systems the pump can be in the lowest point.

katief101

I’m also curious, any ideas how adding the sealant to the system would have caused the radiators to go cold? Before then we had all the rads piping hot and the only issue was the pressure dropping causing the boiler to eventually stop.

He is insisting that it was nothing to do with it and again it’s sludge in our system but it definitely had to be something he did that day. We had heat until he left that day!

Wearb

katief101 wrote: »

I’m also curious, any ideas how adding the sealant to the system would have caused the radiators to go cold? Before then we had all the rads piping hot and the only issue was the pressure dropping causing the boiler to eventually stop.

He is insisting that it was nothing to do with it and again it’s sludge in our system but it definitely had to be something he did that day. We had heat until he left that day!

You might need to do a bit of research, but a lot of additives need to be added to a clean system. Who knows how they will react otherwise.

CoBo55

John.G wrote: »

I think I've mentioned it before but because E.vessels are often installed with the filling pressure and initial (pre) pressure the same, this encourages the fitting of these auto fill valves as there is no water reserve in the E.vessel when cold. The filling pressure should always be 0.3/0.5 bar higher than the pre pressure which gives a few litres of water reserve in the E.vessel when cold and normally the system only requires topping up ~ once per year.
I have even seen a Grant installation guide stating the same pre pressure and filling pressure.

I thought that was the function of the pressure vessel, similar to the overflow vessel in a car, water enters and leaves according to expansion and contraction. That how I visualise it anyway.

CoBo55

katief101 wrote: »

I’m also curious, any ideas how adding the sealant to the system would have caused the radiators to go cold? Before then we had all the rads piping hot and the only issue was the pressure dropping causing the boiler to eventually stop.

He is insisting that it was nothing to do with it and again it’s sludge in our system but it definitely had to be something he did that day. We had heat until he left that day!

Do you have hot water? Obviously you have a leak but you have a separate circulation issue too. My priority would be getting the circulation sorted first, I'd definitely be quizzing him about the circulation pump.

scamalert

Dtp1979 wrote: »

If they didn’t powerflush the system beforehand AND they fitted an auto filler or neglected to remove an existing one, then the job was far from professional.
Btw, the prv should never “flush”. That’s not it’s job. It’s meant to relieve excess pressure in the system. If you have excess pressure then you have a problem. One of the many problems associated with auto fillers.

Think you mistaken OPs issue here, ive no issues with heating nor rads, i do hear sometimes swish sound as thou water goes outside but never checked or inspected theres two pipes one for pvr other short one poiting down for ? for some other thing cant remember now. And pretty sure my system is self filling, as do hear drops upstairs so pressume it tops up or whatever way it was built, and if theres excess boiler flushes, but as far as operational pressure its 0.5-1.5. not a plumber so guess its way supposed to work.

katief101

CoBo55 wrote: »

Do you have hot water? Obviously you have a leak but you have a separate circulation issue too. My priority would be getting the circulation sorted first, I'd definitely be quizzing him about the circulation pump.

Yes we have hot water and rads were working ok up until the point where he added the sealer. They sorted the cold radiator problem back in sept, exact same problem we are having now (said it was sludge in the system but took ages to sort out). Then the pressure was dropping every week or so and we had to keep topping up the water so he came back and added the sealer. The minute he added the sealer the rads went cold again! Surely if it was the pump we would have never had hot rads?

John.G

CoBo55 wrote: »

I thought that was the function of the pressure vessel, similar to the overflow vessel in a car, water enters and leaves according to expansion and contraction. That how I visualise it anyway.

That's correct but when a car's engine is cold there is still water in its expansion tank (with max and min levels) when a E.vessel is pre pressurised then the rubber diaphragm is hard up against the other (water) end and if the filling pressure is the same then there will still be virtually no water in the E.vessel, if you increase this filling pressure to be 0.3 to 0.5 bar greater then the diaphragm is pushed back to accommodate this litre or two of water and you now have a reserve similar to you car's expansion tank which will then also accommodate the expansion when the system heats up so you might prepressurise to 1 bar, fill pressure to 1.5 bar which will rise to ~ 2.0 bar when system heats up.

katief101

Ok so we got another plumber out to take a look. The plumber that did the job is now ignoring our calls and texts.. He reckons that air got into the system while the other guy was adding the sealer. Also that radiators weren’t balanced properly. We now have heating downstairs and all but 2 upstairs are working fine. He told us to bleed these and keep an eye on it and he will come back and balance them if need be. Noticed today though we have no hot water, maybe he adjusted something? I’m hoping this is a quick fix as we are now at the end of our teather! In regards to the original plumbers I am disgusted, there is obviously no sludge in the system (as confirmed by the new plumber) and they can’t even balance radiators!! Don’t know how best to deal with them, it’s now cost us the price of another plumber and not to mention the stress!!

katief101

CoBo55 wrote: »

Where is the circulation pump? Is it close to where the old back boiler was? There's a high possibility a lot of the sludge has ended up in the pump because on many back boiler systems the pump can be in the lowest point.

It’s not close to the where the old back boiler was; the back boiler was in the sitting room and the new one is in the utility so it would be a good bit away

K.Flyer

katief101 wrote: »

Ok so we got another plumber out to take a look. The plumber that did the job is now ignoring our calls and texts.. He reckons that air got into the system while the other guy was adding the sealer. Also that radiators weren’t balanced properly. We now have heating downstairs and all but 2 upstairs are working fine. He told us to bleed these and keep an eye on it and he will come back and balance them if need be. Noticed today though we have no hot water, maybe he adjusted something? I’m hoping this is a quick fix as we are now at the end of our teather! In regards to the original plumbers I am disgusted, there is obviously no sludge in the system (as confirmed by the new plumber) and they can’t even balance radiators!! Don’t know how best to deal with them, it’s now cost us the price of another plumber and not to mention the stress!!

Well that's somewhat good news.
I would think Plumber #2 may have closed the cylinder balancing valve a little too much or accidentally left it fully closed affecting the hot water, easy fix.
It would be best to get the system fully balanced and ensure that there is some inhibitor added to it.

Wearb

Even with the balance valve fully closed, there are still 2 rads not heating. If no air in the system then this could indicate wrong pump/settings or even wrong pipe size supplying that zone.

Easy enough to diagnose by limiting the number of rads open.

Dtp1979

scamalert wrote: »

Think you mistaken OPs issue here, ive no issues with heating nor rads, i do hear sometimes swish sound as thou water goes outside but never checked or inspected theres two pipes one for pvr other short one poiting down for ? for some other thing cant remember now. And pretty sure my system is self filling, as do hear drops upstairs so pressume it tops up or whatever way it was built, and if theres excess boiler flushes, but as far as operational pressure its 0.5-1.5. not a plumber so guess its way supposed to work.

No I was referring directly to your post about your own job. There should never be a self filler on a system. If the prv expels water then there’s a problem. Go outside a check. One pipe will be copper, the other will be plastic

katief101

So we still have 2 rads not heating upstairs. The others seem fine. We turned off the auto topup valve and now the pressure in the boiler is dropping again so looks like the sealant didn’t work?? Could there be another reason (other than a leak) as to why the pressure would be dropping?

Also, any advice as to how we should deal with this plumber? Small claims court or solicitors letter maybe??

Sleeper12

katief101 wrote:

Also, any advice as to how we should deal with this plumber? Small claims court or solicitors letter maybe??

Legal advice or consumer issues forum might be best for this question. SCC is a brilliant system. Very cheap to bring a claim AND the consumer almost never losess. The tradesman is at a disadvantage from the get go in SCC. You will need to fix your heating system first though as it can take six months to get to court. Meanwhile you have fresh water constantly entering your system doing more harm m

katief101

There was a big pocket of air in one of the radiators so we bled it causing the pressure to drop, it had already dropped prior to this so now the boiler has stopped up. Should the auto fill valve not have topped up the system? Should we topup manually? Any advice much appreciated, am at home with 2 sick kids and no heating so it’s a nightmare!! Have to wait a week for a plumber to come to take a look.. Thanks in advance

Dtp1979

katief101 wrote: »

There was a big pocket of air in one of the radiators so we bled it causing the pressure to drop, it had already dropped prior to this so now the boiler has stopped up. Should the auto fill valve not have topped up the system? Should we topup manually? Any advice much appreciated, am at home with 2 sick kids and no heating so it’s a nightmare!! Have to wait a week for a plumber to come to take a look.. Thanks in advance

The auto fill valve (shudder), is probably turned off. Open the black or grey knob underneath until pressure around 1.5. Then close

katief101

https://www.caleffi.com/usa/en-us/catalogue/autofilltm-automatic-filling-valve-pressure-gauge-553642a

This is the auto fill valve we have, currently the indicator is set to just under 0.2 bar. It was originally set to 1.5 when they installed it. Doesn’t seem to be closed. Boiler is making noise and no idea what’s going on. Struggling to get another plumber out to take a look. Any ideas as to why the pressure would be dropping with this valve installed? Is the purpose of the valve not to stop this from happening in the first place?

John.G

Open the bottom grey valve fully, then adjust the top to give say 1.5 bar pressure then shut off the bottom one, pressure re is should then rise to - 2 bar with system hot. If pressure is falling rapidly then as a Torsten measure you could leave the bottvalve open(auto fill) but you will have to locate/fix leak as the continual make up of oxygen rich water will cause big problems, corrosion and build up of sludge etc .