Near Misses Volume 2 (So close you can feel it)

AndrewJRenko · 09-01-2020 11:41am

Salary Negotiator wrote: »

If cyclists were empowered to call out poor driver behaviour (by Gardai actually listening to and following up on complaints) then the roads would be a much more enjoyable and safer place to cycle.

I agree with your point - but to add in, cyclists ARE empowered to call out poor driver behaviour on a 1:1 case-by-case basis. Unfortunately, there is little chance of Garda follow up, but it is possible to make behaviour such as bad parking socially unacceptable. If every driver knows that every time they try to park on a bike lane, somebody is probably going to pull up at their window and ask them to move, they will be less likely to park.

kenmm wrote: »

But unfortunately our police are only there to meet targets and monetise.

Gardai don't monetise anything. For example, the speed van contract costs the state about €10 million each year. That's two schools not getting built each year because drivers won't obey speed limits.

kenmm wrote: »

Tough call tbh - because a lot of the time, taking the law into ones own hands, often offends people (especially the stupid). If hurts someones ego and therefore they are more likely to retaliate in a negative way. If I had the money I'd go back and study this!

The people with actual authority should for sure be taking ownership of this. But due to years of cuts there is not a chance. Unless a lot more people start getting killed, in which case there will be a reactionary response.

So we can't ask someone to move their illegally parked car in case they get offended? If I let my dog crap on your lawn every morning, are you going to worry about how offended I will get when you ask me to stop?

Chips Lovell wrote: »

Road users rarely react well to be admonished by other road users. In most cases, people get thick and defensive. If the goal is to get them to reflect on their behaviour, then nine times out of ten, you're probably not going to achieve it.

The driver getting defensive is not an indicator that your interaction doesn't have a positive impact. They may well get defensive, and still may well think twice about the illegal parking next time round.

kenmm wrote: »

You have all gotten a whole backstory about this grandad stopping to collect kids etc being a selfish fu(k- he may just be a confused old duffer that didn't know what the fu(k was going on - got his licence in the days when Ireland gave them out for free. Who knows and more importantly what difference does it make? You won't teach anyone on the site of the road.

If the 'old duffer' (your words) doesn't know WTF is going on, then he shouldn't be behind the wheel of a lethal weapon.

Salary Negotiator · 09-01-2020 11:42am

kenmm wrote: »

Tough call tbh - because a lot of the time, taking the law into ones own hands, often offends people (especially the stupid). If hurts someones ego and therefore they are more likely to retaliate in a negative way. If I had the money I'd go back and study this!

I'm not saying cyclists should break the law to enforce the law, which is what you've implied by saying taking the law into one's own hands, I'm saying that cyclists could be more vocal in calling out poor driver behaviour when they see it. And if this happened then less motorists would act the dick.

It needs a cultural shift and while it'd be great if the gardai, RSA, local authorities etc took the lead on it, I don't see any reason why it can't be lead from the bottom up.

Salary Negotiator · 09-01-2020 11:44am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I agree with your point - but to add in, cyclists ARE empowered to call out poor driver behaviour on a 1:1 case-by-case basis. Unfortunately, there is little chance of Garda follow up, but it is possible to make behaviour such as bad parking socially unacceptable. If every driver knows that every time they try to park on a bike lane, somebody is probably going to pull up at their window and ask them to move, they will be less likely to park.

I actually meant to write more empowered.

I'd agree with the bolded part, go to places like Amsterdam or Copenhagen and see what happens if you even walk in a cycle lane, never mind park a car in one.

CramCycle · 09-01-2020 11:45am

kenmm wrote: »

Or just go round him - whats the point in getting all bangy window about a nob end. The op came round the corner, *stopped, waited* until the idiot reversed or came closer to the car and started banging the window.

Alternatively he could be up at the baggot st end no worries, while idiot fu(k head is still meandering all over the place!

What happens if the next time he does it, a small child is cycling along there and he hasn't noticed. No need to be aggressive but pointing out his stupidity is fair game.

Cyclist this morning went through a red and cut across a ped, then went through a zebra crossing as 3 people were on it. Next a car was turning right into a parking space and as it started, he went around them, on the right. I called him on it, told him he was a f*cking idiot who would get himself or someone else injured. It might not change his attitude but then again it might, but if I said nothing, he would never change.

Not advocating starting arguments but if someone is an idiot, they should have it pointed out to them IMO I get it pointed out to me all the time, and while I can, on occasion, be annoyed at the time, I know better the next time.

Seth Brundle · 09-01-2020 11:50am

Kander wrote: »

No dangerous over take or close pass. Just someone doing something stupid and being lucky having good breaks in the wet.

https://streamable.com/bsode

I'm reminded of my post from the other day on this...

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I think the video also shows another issue on our roads - far too many drivers deliberately drive onto the yellow hatched box with no hope of getting through the junction and therefore need to stop. I didn't bother wasting time counting the number of them in the above video but there was a good few.

Whilst I acknowledge that she was turning right (which means that she can stop on a yellow box), she ended up obstructing the road which caused a danger to you. Her move onto the box was made out of selfishness - this is why she deliberately blocked the road whilst traffic was approaching from her right.

Chips Lovell · 09-01-2020 11:53am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The driver getting defensive is not an indicator that your interaction doesn't have a positive impact. They may well get defensive, and still may well think twice about the illegal parking next time round.

Have you ever met someone who's told you that they had a full on row with someone on the road but once they'd gotten home and calmed down, they'd realised the other person had a point? I haven't....

kenmm · 09-01-2020 11:56am

Effects wrote: »

Do you really think the situation will get better by just allowing people to block cycle lanes due to laziness?

You are not there to police the roads. You have no authority and as a result no one will give a damn.

Effects wrote: »

He's forcing cyclists to move from a protected cycle lane, through the wands, into a busy car lane, on a corner where people generally speed in cars.
That might be fine for you or me, but maybe not for more vulnerable or inexperienced cyclists. It's the kind of thing that would put off a parent bringing their child on a bike, who will end up just driving instead.

Generally yes, but clearly not in this situation. You are not so rigid that you cannot adapt to situations.

Effects wrote: »

If he can't see that he's better off parking in parking space 100m away, rather than manoeuvring into blocking a cycle lane then perhaps he shouldn't be on the road at all.

Absolutely - again, not much you can do about it (except what you did do, which I think wont achieve your goal..) but we can agree to disagree!

AndrewJRenko · 09-01-2020 12:02pm

Kander wrote: »

No dangerous over take or close pass. Just someone doing something stupid and being lucky having good breaks in the wet.

https://streamable.com/bsode

Sometimes when that happens me, I find that my foot slips out just as I move in front of the vehicle, leading to a bit of a delay as I get myself sorted again.

Chips Lovell wrote: »

Have you ever met someone who's told you that they had a full on row with someone on the road but once they'd gotten home and calmed down, they'd realised the other person had a point? I haven't....

Have you ever met someone who did something sh1tty and dangerous on the road, and no-one said anything to them about about, and once they got home they realised they were wrong?

If you do nothing, nothing changes. That's 100% certain.

buffalo · 09-01-2020 12:03pm

kenmm wrote: »

You are not there to police the roads. You have no authority and as a result no one will give a damn.

If you were sitting on a bus and someone lit a cigarette, what would you think if someone asked them to put it out? Would you think that they aren't there to police the bus?

Asking somebody to not do something illegal is not policing. Trying to physically restrain them or enact some kind of punishment (it would be way more fun if people could collect the fines from offences they report) would be policing.

kenmm · 09-01-2020 12:04pm

Anyway - I need to do some actual work!

Every situation is different and all these hypotheticals on top of hypotheticals is fine. Hopefully some food for thought. I wasn't there with the OP and don't know how bad it actually was. I am not saying you should let people dangerously take the piss or suggesting people are advocating breaking the law. But as fellow road users we are not there to enforce the law. Even if the person should clearly not be driving or whatever.

All we can do is ensure safety of ourselves and others.

An awareness that interactions with some people will often lead to them retaliating in worse ways is often missing as many people adopt this black and white thinking and a bit of self righteousness and therefore situations often escalate (or worse lead to other bad interactions with other road users later in the day). I am not saying this happened here.

AndrewJRenko · 09-01-2020 12:08pm

kenmm wrote: »

All we can do is ensure safety of ourselves and others.

Telling other people to stop doing dangerous sh1t is absolutely ensuring safety of ourselves and others.

Kander · 09-01-2020 12:17pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I'm reminded of my post from the other day on this...

I actually remembered some other boardie having the same problem on that roundabout video which is why I posted this one.

I'm building a library of stupid things drivers do to counter argue people when they go on a rant about people on bikes.

blackwhite · 09-01-2020 12:51pm

Chips Lovell wrote: »

Usually, if someone is creating an obstruction through bad driving/rule breaking I'll just go around them. Stopping to have a barney rarely improves the situation and you're just creating a hazard because the two of you are focused on arguing with one and other rather than on what's going on around you.

Road users rarely react well to be admonished by other road users. In most cases, people get thick and defensive. If the goal is to get them to reflect on their behaviour, then nine times out of ten, you're probably not going to achieve it.

3 mornings out of 4 this week there's been a pedestrian at this section of pathway trying to block cyclists on their bikes - arms spread wide either side of himself - whilst roaring about cycling on the path.

I've simply nipped onto the grass and gone around him (and this morning sent a text to a Garda I know based on Donnybrook), but I've seen others roaring abuse at him as they've passed also.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.339881,-6.2275728,3a,49y,173.42h,93.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stKRQwJ0Jh2q-VWAscecnNQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Similar logic to what's being argued above - I'm struggling to see how getting into a confrontational situation is going to make anyone reconsider their behaviour - IMO it's far more likely to result in more deeply entrenched positions.

Chips Lovell · 09-01-2020 12:52pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Have you ever met someone who did something sh1tty and dangerous on the road, and no-one said anything to them about about, and once they got home they realised they were wrong?.

Yeah. Every time I've made a mistake, done something rash, or a misjudged something while driving or cycling, I've realised it myself and resolved to avoid making the same mistake twice.

Any time I've had someone shouting or beeping at me, they've either a.) been in the wrong, or b.) telling me something I've already realised.

Most of the time it's been a.) though. People's aggressiveness is usually in inverse proportion to their knowledge of road traffic law.

AndrewJRenko · 09-01-2020 1:10pm

Chips Lovell wrote: »

Yeah. Every time I've made a mistake, done something rash, or a misjudged something while driving or cycling, I've realised it myself and resolved to avoid making the same mistake twice.

Any time I've had someone shouting or beeping at me, they've either a.) been in the wrong, or b.) telling me something I've already realised.

Most of the time it's been a.) though. People's aggressiveness is usually in inverse proportion to their knowledge of road traffic law.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saZQuAkhyno

And for other less perfect humans than yourself, the drivers that we see speeding, using their phones, watching videos, parking on cycle lanes every day

Do you know any of them that suddenly have 'road to Damascus' style conversions to become compliant drivers without anyone actually saying something?

Do you extend this approach to other areas of life - parenting, dog training, managing employees - just say nothing about any problems and hope that they sort themselves out?

Chips Lovell · 09-01-2020 1:14pm

Yeah, commenting on random strangers' parenting skills usually ends well alright.;)

AndrewJRenko · 09-01-2020 1:16pm

Chips Lovell wrote: »

Yeah, commenting on random strangers' parenting skills usually ends well alright.;)

I'm not suggesting that you comment on other people's parenting skills.

I'm wondering whether, when your kids (or your dog, or your staff) do something wrong, you just keep your mouth shut and hope they'll sort it out themselves, or do you actually say something?

Chips Lovell · 09-01-2020 1:20pm

My own children? I think that analogy's been stretched so much that it snapped.

cdaly_ · 09-01-2020 1:28pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I'm reminded of my post from the other day on this...

Whilst I acknowledge that she was turning right (which means that she can stop on a yellow box), she ended up obstructing the road which caused a danger to you. Her move onto the box was made out of selfishness - this is why she deliberately blocked the road whilst traffic was approaching from her right.

This is not actually true. You are not allowed onto the yellow box unless your exit is clear. Turning left or going straight ahead is no problem but when turning right, there may be oncoming traffic that you need to wait for. That is the only circumstance where you are allowed stop on the yellow box.

The situation we regularly see is where the exit to the right is blocked so somebody drives onto the box to wait for the exit to clear. This leads to the junction being illegally blocked. This behaviour is simple selfishness.

Seth Brundle · 09-01-2020 1:32pm

cdaly_ wrote: »

This is not actually true. You are not allowed onto the yellow box unless your exit is clear. Turning left or going straight ahead is no problem but when turning right, there may be oncoming traffic that you need to wait for. That is the only circumstance where you are allowed stop on the yellow box.

The situation we regularly see is where the exit to the right is blocked so somebody drives onto the box to wait for the exit to clear. This leads to the junction being illegally blocked. This behaviour is simple selfishness.

I understand that - I just wasn't clear

Seth Brundle · 09-01-2020 2:01pm

FYI - contact your local councillors...

https://twitter.com/SafeCyclingEire/status/1215002363158814720

TheChizler · 09-01-2020 9:23pm

cdaly_ wrote: »

This is not actually true. You are not allowed onto the yellow box unless your exit is clear. Turning left or going straight ahead is no problem but when turning right, there may be oncoming traffic that you need to wait for. That is the only circumstance where you are allowed stop on the yellow box.

The situation we regularly see is where the exit to the right is blocked so somebody drives onto the box to wait for the exit to clear. This leads to the junction being illegally blocked. This behaviour is simple selfishness.

Unless I'm mistaken this is the actual law, there's an exemption from waiting for your exit be to be clear when you're turning right.

Box junctions

29. (1) Subject to sub-article (2), where traffic sign number RRM 020 (yellow box) is provided on a public road or at a junction between one or more roads or at a junction between one or more roads and a light railway (whether the junctions are controlled by traffic sign number RTS 001, RTS 002, RTS 004 or RTS 013 (traffic lights), or otherwise) and notwithstanding any indication to the contrary that may be given by such traffic signs, a driver of a vehicle shall not enter, either partly or wholly, the cross-hatched area unless the vehicle can clear the area without stopping.

(2) Sub-article (1) does not apply where the driver of a vehicle intending to make a right hand turn at a junction enters the cross-hatched area for that purpose.

CramCycle · 09-01-2020 9:30pm

The exit has to be clear to enter a yellow box, as cdaly was saying, going straight or left means you will drive straight through. Turning right is not an exemption, it's just that even if your exit is clear, your ability to exit may be impeded, hence you can 'sit' on the yellow box. In the other two scenarios, you should never need too.