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Near Misses Volume 2 (So close you can feel it)

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    #2852
    Eamonnator
    Registered Users Posts: 6,561 ✭✭✭Eamonnator


    kennethsmyth wrote: »
    Right we need to get this to a TD a news media and big it up because this is intimidation of another form by the gardai and the car driver. I’d be looking to report also to GSOC as an abuse of power. Maybe there is a cyclist who’s a solicitor who would be willing to do pro bono and get this to court rather than pay the fine.

    If the facts are as related by the cyclist in question, that needs to be reported to GSOC.


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    #2853
    Weepsie
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,327 Mod ✭✭✭✭Weepsie


    There's case law on a bike being expected to wobble/swerve isn't there? I'm nearly sure a judge threw out a drivers complaint about a cyclist "being all over the place" because there's a reasonable expectation on them not being able to stick to a perfectly straight line.

    That's a garda making up a rule and applying it on their own bias imo. The driving is a fine and penalty points at a minimum


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    #2854
    jive
    Registered Users Posts: 5,762 ✭✭✭jive


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    Not sure if any of you saw this but Cork Twitter user RightToBikeIt has managed to get a second fine in a matter of days following his filing a complaint. The first involved him moving left slightly to allow a car to overtake him, before returning to his line. He was fined €40 for "swerving".
    Apparently this one today is for his road positioning and swerving.
    Is this to get him to stop reporting them or does anyone see an issue with how he is using the road?

    https://twitter.com/righttobikeit/status/1364258768549277697

    Can’t wait to see how this plays out. If you can be fined for that then we’d all be off the roads by now, I do worse leaving the driveway.

    I think the guard in question underestimated how much support this will get should the fine not be rescinded.


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    #2855
    Eamonnator
    Registered Users Posts: 6,561 ✭✭✭Eamonnator


    Weepsie wrote: »
    There's case law on a bike being expected to wobble/swerve isn't there? I'm nearly sure a judge threw out a drivers complaint about a cyclist "being all over the place" because there's a reasonable expectation on them not being able to stick to a perfectly straight line.

    That's a garda making up a rule and applying it on their own bias imo. The driving is a fine and penalty points at a minimum

    I remember being told on an advanced driving course, that "every cyclist is entitled to his wobble, drive accordingly" It always stuck in my head.


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    #2856
    Weepsie
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,327 Mod ✭✭✭✭Weepsie


    There's a couple of De Ronde cyclists who are gardai, and one former member (now the women's national crit champion) is also a garda I believe. I know a few other gardai in Cork who are very keen cyclists. With the crap Gardai have to put up with and the low level, time wasting stuff and paper work they need to do to get some things done, I doubt any of them would be pleased to see a colleague basically doing the opposite of what they're supposed to be.


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    #2857
    Weepsie
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,327 Mod ✭✭✭✭Weepsie


    Is his first fine for the pinned video? Because he does realise that signalling does not give him right of way. He signalled and moved assuming the driver (which was ****ty) would let him in. It's a petty fine nonetheless


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    #2858
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,571 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Weepsie wrote: »
    Is his first fine for the pinned video? Because he does realise that signalling does not give him right of way. He signalled and moved assuming the driver (which was ****ty) would let him in. It's a petty fine nonetheless
    It is. I think he's effectively arguing that he moved left to allow a vehicle to pass and not that he ceded right of way.


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    #2859
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,416 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Was it the same Garda who charged him both times?


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    #2860
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    It is. I think he's effectively arguing that he moved left to allow a vehicle to pass and not that he ceded right of way.

    And the fine would act as a perverse incentive to NOT move left and allow a vehicle to pass in future.


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    #2861
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,571 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    Was it the same Garda who charged him both times?

    I don't think he said so (one way or the other) in his tweets


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    #2862
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,416 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    hmm; it's just twice in a few days seems a little intentional if not.


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    #2863
    ItsLikeThis
    Registered Users Posts: 108 ✭✭ItsLikeThis


    Weepsie wrote: »
    Is his first fine for the pinned video? Because he does realise that signalling does not give him right of way. He signalled and moved assuming the driver (which was ****ty) would let him in. It's a petty fine nonetheless

    The van definitely accelerated to get in front of the cyclist. Happens all the time when we indicate to change lane.


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    #2864
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,786 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Didn't even realise he was indicating because it's not a factor. Single lane, solid white line, that driver was acting the f*ckhole. Cyclist barely moved over the width of a ruler.


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    #2865
    Weepsie
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,327 Mod ✭✭✭✭Weepsie


    CramCycle wrote: »
    Didn't even realise he was indicating because it's not a factor. Single lane, solid white line, that driver was acting the f*ckhole. Cyclist barely moved over the width of a ruler.

    He's changed his pinned video. I Was referring to the one from JAn 17. He moves in to a different lane. It's a bus stop and then a filtering lane. He cedes any right of way imo by doing so.

    No excuse for ****ty driving, but indicating is not right of way and that's one of the basic rules. That said, if he doesn't move there he's probably getting into the kerb when the lane ends

    Doesn't deserve a fine, and the driver definitely does.


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    #2866
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,571 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    ^^^
    this is the video Weepsie is referring to (which resulted in his first fine)

    https://twitter.com/righttobikeit/status/1350534150336507904


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    #2867
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,786 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Imagine you were driving and there was room to merge but just as you start merging the car behind speeds up to cut you up. I think its a petty fine. I don't think he done anything wrong, he doesn't assume right of way, there was space and the van speeds up to block him off. That's dangerous driving and generally just sh1tty behaviour.


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    #2868
    Paul Kiernan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,171 ✭✭✭Paul Kiernan


    Yes, it is ****ty behaviour by the driver but probably not illegal. Technically the cyclist is changing lanes. But he obviously has no other choice! Part of the problem is the road design which forces slower moving traffic to move out into a faster lane. Why aren't the arrows the other way round, so the vehicles have to move safely into the inner lane?


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    #2869
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,786 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Even if the cyclist was to blame for changing lanes suddenly or without warning (he indicated and IMO it was pretty obvious what was going to happen), the driver fails on numerous counts. He speeds up to perform dangerous overtake (dangerous driving), if he failed to see that the inside lane was finishing and that the vehicle ahead of him was indicating and he didn't adjust his speed (driving without due care and attention). Merging in on the cyclist is vehicular assault and so on. I'm really struggling to see, and maybe there is something wrong with my driving, an issue with the cyclist. If a car is ahead of me and indicating to move into my lane, I adjust to allow it as to continue on the presumption I have the right of way is dangerous. Now there are obviously exceptions for certain circumstances but in reality, they are few and far between and this was not one of them.


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    #2870
    Paul Kiernan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,171 ✭✭✭Paul Kiernan


    It's not clear to me that the van speeds up? But even if he does the road in front of him (his lane) is clear. Yes, it's ****ty, discourteous behaviour. To me the cyclist is in a far weaker position than if he was pulling out to pass a parked car. In that case, even if he was on a wide road doing 20km/h with a stream of cars passing him at 50km/h each car passing him is technically overtaking and responsible for doing it safely. In this case the cyclist is changing lanes and the onus is on him to ensure it's safe to do so.


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    #2871
    breezy1985
    Registered Users Posts: 25,728 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Paul Kiernan wrote: »
    It's not clear to me that the van speeds up? But even if he does the road in front of him (his lane) is clear. Yes, it's ****ty, discourteous behaviour. To me the cyclist is in a far weaker position than if he was pulling out to pass a parked car. In that case, even if he was on a wide road doing 20km/h with a stream of cars passing him at 50km/h each car passing him is technically overtaking and responsible for doing it safely. In this case the cyclist is changing lanes and the onus is on him to ensure it's safe to do so.

    Looked pretty safe. No car driver would have considered that gap to small for a lane change


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    #2872
    hesker
    Registered Users Posts: 1,506 ✭✭✭hesker


    Agree it was sh**ty driving, particularly against a vulnerable road user. So he deserves to be done for that.

    However cyclist was merging and you can’t just assume you will be able to merge in. Cyclist or any vehicle should be prepared to stop if necessary.
    You would be better off staying in your lane to begin with as I think the guy himself now states.

    By the way I’ve been on the receiving end of this a few years back when driving and merging on to a motorway. Driver in left lane didn’t move over. There was no contact and wasn’t a very close call but I got a couple of beeps. I accepted afterwards to myself that I should have yielded. I see this as very similar without looking up the legal details.


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    #2873
    cletus
    Registered Users Posts: 7,962 ✭✭✭cletus


    If you're the one changing lane, there is no legal obligation on the users of the lane you want to merge into to 'allow' you to merge. It's your responsibility to do that safely. Part of that means matching your speed to the speed of the lane you are merging with. This is regardless of the type of vehicle you are using.

    I didn't see any real evidence that the van was speeding up. Looking at the video again, if the van was doing the same speed as the car that passed him before he merged, it would have caught up on him pretty quickly


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    #2874
    Paul Kiernan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,171 ✭✭✭Paul Kiernan


    hesker wrote: »
    You would be better off staying in your lane to begin with as I think the guy himself now states.

    He couldn't stay in his lane, it had ended!

    Unfortunately any cyclist in this position is reliant on the goodwill of drivers to let him merge. It's a ****ty situation for the road designers to put him in. And as the guards are probably pissed off with him reporting people they were delighted to fine him.

    I've looked at other videos posted by him and the treatment he's been subjected to by other driver's is horrendous. I don't know whether he's just unlucky or is this typical of the way driver's treat cyclists.


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    #2875
    cletus
    Registered Users Posts: 7,962 ✭✭✭cletus


    breezy1985 wrote: »
    Looked pretty safe. No car driver would have considered that gap to small for a lane change

    Honestly, after looking at that video a couple of times, if I was in a car I think I would have let the van pass


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    #2876
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,094 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    cletus wrote: »
    If you're the one changing lane, there is no legal obligation on the users of the lane you want to merge into to 'allow' you to merge. It's your responsibility to do that safely. Part of that means matching your speed to the speed of the lane you are merging with. This is regardless of the type of vehicle you are using.

    I didn't see any real evidence that the van was speeding up. Looking at the video again, if the van was doing the same speed as the car that passed him before he merged, it would have caught up on him pretty quickly

    The vehicles in the lane you are merging with though are under an obligation to anticipate what other road users in front of them are likely to do and leave themselves enough space to react and not run over those road users.

    A narrowing road ahead and a cyclist to your left then you are still 100% obliged not to run them over, and that supercedes any potential right of way of one road user over another.

    A right of way is not a right to run over.


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    #2877
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,571 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Apparently Ciaran Cannon will raise this in the Dáil...

    https://twitter.com/ciarancannon/status/1364483757512736768


    Edit: he also states further down in that twitter thread that he will raise it with the RSA.


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    #2878
    cletus
    Registered Users Posts: 7,962 ✭✭✭cletus


    robinph wrote: »
    The vehicles in the lane you are merging with though are under an obligation to anticipate what other road users in front of them are likely to do and leave themselves enough space to react and not run over those road users.

    A narrowing road ahead and a cyclist to your left then you are still 100% obliged not to run them over, and that supercedes any potential right of way of one road user over another.

    A right of way is not a right to run over.

    I didn't suggest it was. Simply pointing out that the signal he made did not give him automatic access to that lane, and tbh, if it was me, I would've slowed down and looked for a better moment to merge.

    Also, he was in the narrowing (merging) lane himself, so there is also an obligation there to be aware of what's coming up on the road ahead, and being aware he may need to slow before merging


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    #2879
    Paul Kiernan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,171 ✭✭✭Paul Kiernan


    It (and his other videos in particular) also raise the whole question as to how cyclists can interact with fast moving traffic safely.


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    #2880
    buffalo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭buffalo


    cletus wrote: »
    I didn't suggest it was. Simply pointing out that the signal he made did not give him automatic access to that lane, and tbh, if it was me, I would've slowed down and looked for a better moment to merge.

    Also, he was in the narrowing (merging) lane himself, so there is also an obligation there to be aware of what's coming up on the road ahead, and being aware he may need to slow before merging

    It was a fine moment as any to merge. Watch the video and you'll see he indicates, waits for the first car to pass, and then moves into the space between the car and van.

    It's only after he is in the lane that the van driver then accelerates to overtake and squeeze, not as the cyclist is merging.


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    #2881
    hesker
    Registered Users Posts: 1,506 ✭✭✭hesker


    Paul Kiernan wrote: »
    He couldn't stay in his lane, it had ended!.

    Have a look at the video again and then read his own Twitter account. He moved left into the merging lane right at the start of that video. He did this to accommodate other road users but placed himself at a disadvantage by doing so. That’s the unfortunate reality of the situation.

    Once in there he does have a choice. Merge safely or stop.

    If he seeks to argue his case against the Gardai on this one I think he’ll lose.


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