Right Wing Grifters

Lefty Bicek

This latest ridiculous detour all comes about because rather than challenge the perspective that...

the left is so embarrassed that western civilisation was (past tense in thanks to leftist principles) so damn successful on the world stage.

Zero attempt is then made to deal with the real point of the original proposition ie the toxicity of the Left's disdain for the Western Tradition.

We instead get the utterly predictable whataboutery of European 'colonialisation, war and famine'.

Junkyard Tom

Just a point of order here. The idea that there is a continuous stream of 'Western Civilisation' starting in antiquity with the Greeks/Romans and ending up with the Large Hadron Collider is hilarious.

Seriously, where does this shite come from? Are there any credible sources for this stuff other than the anti-intellectual morons on YouTube? There was no 'West' in classical times. When did the term 'the West' even become common parlance?

It's difficult to even have a discussion with people when they attribute meaning to terms willy-nilly. 'The left' is destroying 'western civilisation' is essentially fucking meaningless.

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

the toxicity of the Left's disdain for the Western Tradition.

What do you mean by 'the left'?

What exactly is 'western tradition'?

Can you give me a few examples of 'the left's' disdain for 'western tradition'

20Cent

Robert ninja wrote: »

It's called efficient searching. I'm looking specifically for that famous instance that was exposed as fake news, not all the actual fake news and 24/7 left wing Trump bashing. Nor did I want to link any specific place. But you're welcome to it. Let's remove the efficiency so.
Enjoy that search history.
Bonus

That doesn't make it any better.
One of the themes of this thread is digital illiteracy.
As demonstrated by your posts.
Thanks

Lefty Bicek

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Just a point of order here. The idea that there is a continuous stream of 'Western Civilisation' starting in antiquity with the Greeks/Romans and ending up with the Large Hadron Collider is hilarious.

Seriously, where does this shite come from? Are there any credible sources for this stuff other than the anti-intellectual morons on YouTube? There was no 'West' in classical times. When did the term 'the West' even become common parlance?

It's difficult to even have a discussion with people when they attribute meaning to terms willy-nilly. 'The left' is destroying 'western civilisation' is essentially fucking meaningless.

What do you mean by 'the left'?

What exactly is 'western tradition'?

Can you give me a few examples of 'the left's' disdain for 'western tradition'

Why don't you address the person who made the statement originally ?

Hopefully he/she will have some patience for your vulgar and aggressive language. I don't.

While you're waiting, you might want to read and reconsider the part of your tirade that I've highlighted. A quite remarkably ignorant thing to say.

Why are you so angry, by the way ?

SaintLeibowitz

The Greeks where western? That's a new one to me.

Blind Eagle

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

So all the good stuff. As you know for every person who benefitted from 'western civilisation' another, both at home and abroad, experienced misery. The Native Americans felt the full force of 'Western Civilisation' as did millions of African slaves, as did millions of 'civilised' Europeans on the battlefield.

Right, so some of the West's history is positive, some is negative. Quelle surprise. This is true for any Civilisation through out the ages. The simple fact is that Western Civilisation is the most successful of recent times in essentially any metric you can think of, particularly now.

Junkyard Tom

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

A quite remarkably ignorant thing to say.

Try harder. That's not how you disprove a point.

Appiah argues that over the last century we've invented a fable about Western culture – in his words, "from Plato to NATO". According to Appiah, we've forged a grand narrative stretching from Athenian democracy to the Magna Carta through to modern liberal democracy, which has sustained us through the Cold War to the modern day.

Kwame Anthony Appiah Philosopher and Cultural Theorist.

Blind Eagle

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Try harder. That's not how you disprove a point.

Appiah argues that over the last century we've invented a fable about Western culture – in his words, "from Plato to NATO". According to Appiah, we've forged a grand narrative stretching from Athenian democracy to the Magna Carta through to modern liberal democracy, which has sustained us through the Cold War to the modern day.

Kwame Anthony Appiah Philosopher and Cultural Theorist.

Ah good aul Kwame Appiah. If he says it it must be true.

Blind Eagle

SaintLeibowitz wrote: »

The Greeks where western? That's a new one to me.

Yes. Ancient Greece is considered the birth place of Western civilisation.

Junkyard Tom

Blind Eagle wrote: »

Ah good aul Kwame Appiah. If he says it it must be true.

Yeah who does he think he is? I mean, if he knew he was refuting YouTube giants like Paul Joseph Watson, Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson he'd just give up wouldn't he?

Is there any chance we could get this discussion moved to somewhere where the crap will be modded out?

Blind Eagle

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Yeah who does he think he is? I mean, if he knew he was refuting YouTube giants like Paul Joseph Watson, Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson he'd just give up wouldn't he?

Is there any chance we could get this discussion moved to somewhere where the crap will be modded out?

What have any of them got to do with anything? You've quoted a cultural theorist that says the idea of Western culture is a "fable", and yet don't tell us why he says that. This is a stone cold example of Arguing from Authority. If anything needs modding out it's your contribution.

Junkyard Tom

Blind Eagle wrote: »

What have any of them got to do with anything?

The title of the thread refers to right wing grifters and this 'leftists' v 'Western Civilization' is a big part of their repertoires. Try to keep up.

Blind Eagle wrote: »

You've quoted a cultural theorist that says the idea of Western culture is a "fable", and yet don't tell us why he says that.

I have quoted a source with some level of credibility. I have used a source to call into question terms and statements made by randomers on the internet.

I think it is up to people who make grand statements to clarify what it is they mean rather than have others try to figure it out.

Lefty Bicek

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I think it is up to people who make grand statements to clarify what it is they mean rather than have others try to figure it out.

On you go then...

There was no 'West' in classical times.

We're waiting.

Blind Eagle

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The title of the thread refers to right wing grifters and this 'leftists' v 'Western Civilization' is a big part of their repertoires. Try to keep up.

Is it? I wouldn't know I don't watch to much American political garbage these days. I've better things to be doing.

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I have quoted a source with some level of credibility. I have used a source to call into question terms and statements made by randomers on the internet.

I think it is up to people who make grand statements to clarify what it is they mean rather than have others try to figure it out.

Claiming there is no Western Civilisation is quite a grandios statement to make in itself. You then literally engaged in the fallacy of Argument from Authority, something you've unwittingly just admitted to, to back up this claim.

"Other authors consider it a fallacy in general to cite an authority on the discussed topic as the primary means of supporting an argument"

which is exactly what you did.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

Junkyard Tom

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

On you go then...We're waiting.

Oh hi there. How's the cheerleading from outside the ring going for ya?

The greeks didn't have compasses bro. There wasn't even a North South East West as we now know it back then. Back in the day the world was Mediterranean-centric as you'll see from this map attributed to Herodotus:

Lefty Bicek

Blind Eagle wrote: »

Ah good aul Kwame Appiah. If he says it it must be true.

From the link provided -

His critique of contemporary Afrocentrism has been criticized by some of its leading proponents, such as Temple University African American Studies scholar and activist Molefi Asante, who has characterized Appiah's work as "anti-African."[27] Allegations have been made about the integrity of his scholarship.

You couldn't make it up.

Junk will settle this for us in a moment.

No way would he fall into the unscholarly trap of not reading broadly around a topic, and by not testing opposing views, fall into the fallacy of Arguing from Authority.

Oh, no.

SaintLeibowitz

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

On you go then...



We're waiting.

The Greeks didn't refer to themselves as Western. The whole 'western civilisation' term is a recent invention.

They certainly thought of themselves as the center of civilisation though and for good reason(math,thought etc)

Lefty Bicek

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Oh hi there. How's the cheerleading from outside the ring going for ya?

The greeks didn't have compasses bro. There wasn't even a North South East West as we now know it back then. Back in the day the world was Mediterranean-centric as you'll see from this map attributed to Herodotus:

That is truly a pathetic excuse for a post.

Here is a clue -

Herodotus is NOT 'classical times'.

Junkyard Tom

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

That is truly a pathetic excuse for a post.

More useless lazy responses. What part of it is wrong?

Herodotus is NOT 'classical times'.

Eh yes he was. He was from the 'classical era', 'classical times', 'classical antiquity' which is what was what was being discussed. I can't help you if you're having difficulty with the flow of the discussion.

nkl12xtw5goz70

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

According to Appiah, we've forged a grand narrative stretching from Athenian democracy to the Magna Carta through to modern liberal democracy, which has sustained us through the Cold War to the modern day.

One can easily trace the evolution of Western democracy from ancient Greece through to modern times, so what exactly is the problem with pointing out the connections?

Blind Eagle

SaintLeibowitz wrote: »

The Greeks didn't refer to themselves as Western. The whole 'western civilisation' term is a recent invention.

They certainly thought of themselves as the center of civilisation though and for good reason(math,thought etc)

It began with the Romans, who were heavily influenced by the Greeks, hence why the Greeks are considered the birth place of Western Civilisation.
The point being that there has long been a concept of The West ergo Western Civilisation.

Wibbs

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

So all the good stuff.

Just like you listed the bad.

As you know for every person who benefitted from 'western civilisation' another, both at home and abroad, experienced misery. The Native Americans felt the full force of 'Western Civilisation'

Yup, though many had already felt the full force of internal cultures of their own. The Dances With Wolves spiritual people at one with nature ntion is just another "noble savage" narrative. In fairness that too tends to be a European idea.

as did millions of African slaves,

Indeed, yet another stain on the European checklist. Tell me, what large region of the world and set of cultures first outlawed slavery?

as did millions of 'civilised' Europeans on the battlefield.

Yup again, but not due to any inherent drive, more an advanced technological set of societies who could be more murderous than anyone else(mostly, the Japanese were pretty "good" at it. The Chinese similarly and Africa is hardly clean either on the going nuts and butchering "enemies")

Who said it was evil? Who mentioned race? That's a strawman. I'm sure if the North Africans or Chinese had gotten so far ahead we'd have suffered the same fate as those 'we' colonised only the Chinese would be couching it in similar terms to you.

If were mostly using Asian or African writing, clothing, technology, architecture, art, science and philosophies, political or otherwise they'd have a valid point.

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Just a point of order here. The idea that there is a continuous stream of 'Western Civilisation' starting in antiquity with the Greeks/Romans and ending up with the Large Hadron Collider is hilarious.

Seriously, where does this shite come from? Are there any credible sources for this stuff other than the anti-intellectual morons on YouTube? There was no 'West' in classical times. When did the term 'the West' even become common parlance?

For all your distaste at labels and received meanings you seem to blind to the notion that an idea can have many. "Rome" was as much an idea of a cohesive entity as a reality and remained so for a very very long time, and even resonated well into the modern era. The, Charlemagnes, Napoleons, Hitlers and many others, even the Christian church have been trying to recreate it. Hell, it can be argued well enough that the EU is the latest incarnation. Even the European colonies echoed this "connection", loose and fractious as it was and can remain. One big reason they regarded other cultures as the "other" is down to this.

You mention the Large Hadron Collider. OK. The beginnings of science show up in the Middle East first and holds fast for a long time, the Chinese throw their oar in at times, but cultural baggage tends to limit them. The start of what we would call modern science, mathematics and physics kicks off in Greece, the Romans have a good stab at it, then the Islamic world takes over for sadly too short a time(BTW much of it inspired by Greek thought they had more of at their local disposal). Then the printing press kicks off in Europe, after it was invented in Asia and passed through the Islamic world with barely a flicker and European science and thought streaks ahead at a breakneck pace. While the Large Hadron Collider has many parents over the millennia the vast majority of them are European.

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Try harder. That's not how you disprove a point.

Appiah argues that over the last century we've invented a fable about Western culture – in his words, "from Plato to NATO". According to Appiah, we've forged a grand narrative stretching from Athenian democracy to the Magna Carta through to modern liberal democracy, which has sustained us through the Cold War to the modern day.

Kwame Anthony Appiah Philosopher and Cultural Theorist.

Well isn't he only great. Just going on that quote alone he's historically and culturally adrift. As I've pointed out above the "fable" as he terms it is around a lot longer than a hundred years and obviously, in your face, how could you miss it so longer. FFS the Renaissance kinda gives the game away to anyone not eager to peddle their particular pet theory to get a name and tenure and maybe a book deal. Philosophy as a discipline is a charm for that stuff and worse it has gotten in the last century. So yep, try harder indeed.

Wibbs

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

Herodotus is NOT 'classical times'.

Eh, yeah L, he most certainly was. As a Greek philosopher, observer and historian, endlessly quoted and doted upon by both later Greek and Roman thinkers, he couldn't be any more classical.

Junkyard Tom

Jaelyn Uptight Speedway wrote: »

One can easily trace the evolution of Western democracy from ancient Greece through to modern times, so what exactly is the problem with pointing out the connections?

As I've pointed out the concept of 'West' is relatively new and 'Western Civilisation' newer still, we can put 'Western Democracy' in that basket too. You can't invent a term and apply it retrospectively to whatever time you choose.

nkl12xtw5goz70

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Eh yes he was. He was from the 'classical era', 'classical times', 'classical antiquity' which is what was what was being discussed. I can't help you if you're having difficulty with the flow of the discussion.

You do realize that Herodotus was one of the first to define the notion of "the West" as distinct from "the East"? The concept that you're trying to argue is "relatively new"?

Slowyourrole

Deleted User wrote: »

Can you point out where I did that in order to back up your inference that I am a racist?

I've no clue who you are. When did I infer you are a racist?

Wibbs wrote: »

I for one can't recall any example where you've argued from a position of facts and links to same. Unlike me by the by. Your entire debating position appears to be "well you're just wrong and even questioning this is RACIST!!" in a vain attempt to shut down any debate. Surely if your position is so obviously correct, tenable and provable it should be a doddle to show the opposing position is not obviously correct, untenable and nonsense.

Am I correct in remembering you as the person who referred to diversity as an infection?

Wibbs wrote: »

Well then, you better get onto the leader of this country and the relevant immigration departments and accuse them of being "racist" because they have quite clearly stated that immigrants that have applied from Albania and Georgia and Nigeria are likely to be out to scam the system and have straight out rejected legal entry to this country of nearly 100% of them.

If I'm ever talking to them I'll be sure to bring it up.

Wibbs wrote: »

Then again you seem to get confused, or wilfully ignore the simple fact that this does not mean Albanians and Georgians and Nigerians are all scammers. Though you'd only love if someone thought this.

Someone said that very thing in the thread.

Wibbs wrote: »

It does mean that it strongly suggests those from those countries trying to claim asylum here are. That's the difference. And that's the joke too. While having a fit if you think people are stereotyping entire groups of people, you yourself are apparently and happily painting the same groups as homogeneous and all of one mind and morality just because they're of a different race, nationality or ethnicity.

That's a new one. Just trying to pick through it. So in your mind I'm the racist for saying all immigrants from those countries aren't scammers? It's a novel approach to trying to muddy the waters, I'll give you that.

Wibbs wrote: »

Though this is not a complete shock as too often I have found that those with hair triggers about anything around the question of "race" are just as focused and swayed to their position on colour, culture and ethnicity as the actual racists out there are to theres.

No, it seems you are genuinely ignorant to what people like me think. The opposite of racist isn't assuming everyone of a particular group is good, it's not assuming anything based solely on their belonging to that group.

Blind Eagle

Slowyourrole wrote: »

No, it seems you are genuinely ignorant to what people like me think. The opposite of racist isn't assuming everyone of a particular group is good, it's not assuming anything based solely on their belonging to that group.

Pretty sure that is the point Wibbs was trying to make.

Wibbs

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The greeks didn't have compasses bro.

Nobody did at the time. Well maybe by the end of the Greek world the Chinese did.

There wasn't even a North South East West as we now know it back then.

Eh... yes there was. There are specific Greek words for them. Though of all the European cultures to pick the Greeks were decidedly vague on geography. Over there, beyond the north winds etc sorta thing.

Back in the day the world was Mediterranean-centric as you'll see from this map attributed to Herodotus

And yet Greek and later European thought had seen the world as a globe and had even measured its size and pretty accurately in a few cases. Sadly the one measure that was taken as most likely was the bad one(Ptolemy IIRC) and why Columbus thought the Indies were where America lies.

Blind Eagle

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

As I've pointed out the concept of 'West' is relatively new and 'Western Civilisation' newer still, we can put 'Western Democracy' in that basket too. You can't invent a term and apply it retrospectively to whatever time you choose.

No it isn't. The idea of the West began with the Romans. Since Wikipedia seems to be the source of choice around here:

"The concept of a "West" dates back to the Roman Empire, where there was a cultural divide between the Greek East and Latin West, a divide that later continued in Medieval Europe between the Catholic Latin Church west and the "Greek" Eastern Orthodox east."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture

Lefty Bicek

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

More useless lazy responses. What part of it is wrong?



Eh yes he was. He was from the 'classical era', 'classical times', 'classical antiquity' which is what was what was being discussed. I can't help you if you're having difficulty with the flow of the discussion.

He was FROM the classical era. He was not THE classical era.

You said -

There was no 'West' in classical times.

You did not say 'there was no 'West in 450BC according to Herodotus'. Did you ?

THE classical era extends for a period from, conventionally, Homer

So let me educate you, using a source you're content to use yourself - Wikipedia.

Classical antiquity (also the classical era, classical period or classical age) is the period of cultural history between the 8th century BC and the 6th century AD centered on the Mediterranean Sea, comprising the interlocking civilizations of ancient Greece and ancient Rome known as the Greco-Roman world.

Within that timeframe of 'classical times, who do we find as Roman Emperor, from 284, to 305 AD ?

Diocletian.

Who divided the Empire in two.

East and West.

He appointed fellow officer Maximian as Augustus, co-emperor, in 286. Diocletian reigned in the Eastern Empire, and Maximian reigned in the Western Empire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diocletian

Anyone who says, as you did,

There was no 'West' in classical times

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=111938438&postcount=423

...is simply uneducated on the matter, and is not worth listening to.