Right Wing Grifters

Blind Eagle

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Why is he not a credible source? Also, I asked people what they meant by 'Western Civilisation' and got nothing in return of substance. That's pretty hard to work with.

I used Kwame Anthony Appiah as one source that would cast doubt on the idea of a cogent concept of Western Civilisation.

No, again, you are missing the point of what arguing from authority is. You didn't source any of his reasoning, just that he agrees with you. You didn't even give your own reasoning.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/21/Appeal-to-Authority

"Description: Insisting that a claim is true simply because a valid authority or expert on the issue said it was true, without any other supporting evidence offered. Also see the appeal to false authority"

And you got points as to what is meant by Western Civilisation. Democracy being one of many.

Lefty Bicek

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

That's was Naomi Wolfe, genius. Some scholar you are.

See what I did there? I knew who you meant. I knew who you meant when I read that first but I didn't act the asshole about it like yours truly, because it's nit-picky and a waste of time.

Be better.

Yet you can't even spell her surname when it's in front of you.

Be better, indeed.

SaintLeibowitz

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

Yet you can't even spell her surname when it's in front of you.

Be better, indeed.

You got two different human beings wrong.

Junkyard Tom

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

Yet you can't even spell her surname when it's in front of you.

Be better, indeed.

Good grief you are tedious.

Lefty Bicek

SaintLeibowitz wrote: »

You got two different human beings wrong.

But at least I can spell.

markodaly

Junkyard Tom

Blind Eagle wrote: »

No, again, you are missing the point of what arguing from authority is.

I'm fairly well versed on logical fallacies and yes it is an Appeal to Authority but only because I understand I'm not an expert, you can't dismiss it just because it disagrees with your position.

Junkyard Tom

markodaly wrote: »

So what would you call it instead?

Is there such a thing also as Chinese civilisation?
Islamic civilisation?
Inca civilization?
Egyption civilisation?

I don't know. What I do know is that any time I hear 'Western Civilisation' it is usually spoken of by cranks and frauds. It's a bit like 'Leader of the Free World' or 'Traditional values'. These terms are big on connotation but little on substance.

Also the statement I take issue with in particular is this:

Deleted User wrote: »

western civilisation ... past tense in thanks to leftist principles

Western civilisation is history because of leftist principles. What the hell does that even mean?

Blind Eagle

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I'm fairly well versed on logical fallacies and yes it is an Appeal to Authority but only because I understand I'm not an expert, you can't dismiss it just because it disagrees with your position.

No you aren't well versed in logical fallacies. That is quite ckear. You wouldn't have engaged in one on purpose. And if you have that is completely disengenuous.

No, I can't dismiss it because it does not support your position. That is quite literally the point. It's worse than wrong. It's not anything. It's an appeal to authority!!

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

The Classical world, the renaissance, the use of the printing press to change everything(including the news and social media we're discussing here), the enlightenment, separation of church and state, democracy as an ideal for a state, women's rights, workers rights, the rights of the child, human rights separated from religious philosophies, modern universities, railways, the steam engine, the industrial revolution, anti slave legislation(that's the bit you left out) and a vanishing into the distance long list of technical innovation. Hell the modern global culture is far more European in flavour and origin than any other culture and by a long distance. And that's before you look at ex European colonies. The best bits of the modern world are almost entirely based on European culture and innovation. Look around you indoors or out, the vast majority of everything you see and use and take for granted in your life and that makes your life better had its origins in European and western civilisation. Never mind that outside industrialised slaughter every one of the others was perpetrated by other non Western civilisation. But no, the west and the evil whitey is so so bad. G'way to feck.

I get a major pain in my arse with this European/White self flagellation ballsology.

Ahh Wibbs... I love you. MVP.

Junkyard Tom two things. One, stop repeating questions to me when I haven't answered the first time you asked. I live in a different time zone than you. You've posted up the question 2/3 times in a few hours. Second, reel back the aggression. There's no need for it. I haven't sought to insult you, so don't start with me, otherwise you'll be on a quick ride to my ignore list. Fair?

I don't have time to write long responses to your posts right now. I'll do so later. Others have responded well to your other objections and I won't try to better them.

ILoveYourVibes

20Cent wrote: »

So in another thread I keep seeing people posting content from these right wing sources that are such obvious grifters, there to cash in.
The king of them was of course Alex Jones who lead the way with fake news and fake controversies in order to sell junk like vitamin pills to people. There are now loads of them, his protege Paul Joseph Watson for example. There is a whole mini industry out there. All they do is spread what they think their audience wants to hear and they lap it up. No lie or exaggeration is too much. They will still get the clicks, likes and sales. Have asked before but not seeing similar behaviour on the left.

Why are such obvious frauds and misinformation so popular with right wingers?
Why aren't they calling them out themselves?

I just find it ironic that it was Katie Hopkins who got Alan Sugar into trouble for violating the Sex discrimination act because she tried to pull one over on him blaming child care for not wanting the job.

20Cent

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I just find it ironic that it was Katie Hopkins who got Alan Sugar into trouble for violating the Sex discrimination act because she tried to pull one over on him blaming child care for not wanting the job.

No idea what that means.

But Katie Hopkins is a good example of a shill cashing in on far right paranoia and fear. People like her just aren't a thing on the left because the left will critique their own the right will won't.

Boggles

markodaly wrote: »

Should we not have prisons either?

Weird question.

But yes we should, more of them.

markodaly wrote: »

Like you very much advocate an open border,

Link? I am disgusted and demand a retraction, I'm not offended though.

markodaly wrote: »

so should we not have prisions for violent offenders?.

Weirder. But yes, yes we should.

markodaly wrote: »

I think you are just being a try-hard on this forum as there is no way you would publicly state these opinions.

What opinions?

Maybe you need to try-harder lad.

marieholmfan

markodaly wrote: »

This is why the Greek wars with the Persians were to pivitiol for western civilisation and imo human civilisation.

If the Greeks had been defeated at Salamis, Marathon and Plataea we would be living in a very different world

Immortalised of course in the battle of Thermopylae.

If the Greek city states had been truely concquered so much of western philosophy, art, archtecture, and of course its most famous export, democracy would have been lost.

You clearly know nothing about Persia.

To whom did the Greeks export democracy? Spartan Democracy? Give me a break!

It's more likely that 'western' philosophy ,art and architecture would have permeated the Persian Empire and that we would now be colonising Barnard's star.

marieholmfan

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

But, Diocletian. You were wrong. End of.

So you assert that because people in the past knew the cardinal points of the earth they therefore mapped them mentally in the way we do now?

Slowyourrole

Wibbs wrote: »

Nope. That's what you wanted to read. So you could have an oul self righteous freak out. What I actually said was: I'm also definitely talking about the BS that is "diversity" and "multiculturalism". We've already been infected with it here on the back of freeloaders who showed up during the "boom" and ivory tower idealogues in the Dail and other vested interests. That's the political idea and the BS idea in my opinion that is "diversity" and "multiculturalism". Spot the obvious and important difference.

Yes, I remembered correctly. "I'm not opposed to diversity, it's the idea of it I'm opposed to" Makes perfect sense.

Wibbs wrote: »

Avoid the point as if your life depends on it.

What was the point? Do you think I'm bound somehow to a politician's words?

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh I'm also my brother's keeper? So when it suits anything someone else might say is something in your "debate" arsenal when dealing with other points and posters? OK. I'm sure there are other straws you can clutch to on this hobby horse of yours.

Didn't say you were their keeper. You said nobody thinks like that. You were clearly wrong. Someone obviously does.

Wibbs wrote: »

Nope again. Unlike you I don't jump to shouting "RACIST" as a default position when my arguments fail.

No, your default position is to try and make the word seem irrelevant.

Wibbs wrote: »

*facepalm*

Don't hurt yourself now.

Wibbs

marieholmfan wrote: »

You clearly know nothing about Persia.

To whom did the Greeks export democracy? Spartan Democracy? Give me a break!

True enough. There's an awful lot of myth making around this period and painting the Persians as the barbarians and the Greeks being the enlightened ones, exemplified by Thermopylae. Unfortunately for the myth it's not close to accurate. Never mind that "Greeks" was a loose concept at best. Persia was much more of a state as we think of it, rather than a bunch of small city states vying for dominance. If anything the Persians forced them to unite(not without internal resistance). Never mind that unlike the Greek city states - with the notable exception of Sparta, which horrified the Athenians - Persian women had far more rights. Athens at times could make Saudi Arabia look like a feminist paradise. While Greek thought, mostly condensed in Athens, was ahead, in most every other metric the Persians were ahead.

It's more likely that 'western' philosophy ,art and architecture would have permeated the Persian Empire and that we would now be colonising Barnard's star.

Nah, went a bit too far there. It's like those who think that if Rome had never fallen we'd be among the stars. Nope. One consistent feature of empires like the Persian is that after a burst of growth and innovation, stagnation with occasional spells of innovation is a near given. Rome was great for Europe, but it was even better that it fell. Consider China. The last ancient empire still around. It followed that incredible innovation, followed by large tracts of time being stagnant and inward looking model. One of the few times China was ahead of Europe in tech and growth and production was during the Tang dynasty, smack bang in the middle of the "dark ages" of Europe. The now gone Islamic caliphate followed the same trajectory. Incredible burst in the early years, then stagnation.

Like I pointed out earlier, printing was invented and initially developed in China, passed through the Islamic world and ended up in Europe. Where did it rapidly* change everything? Not in the two empires, but in the internal competing small states loosely bound by religion and culture within Europe. Gunpowder was another one. Shipbuilding and navigation too. It seems the empire of the mind is far more advantageous than the empire of the land.





*and it was scarily rapid. You could have been a ten year old in say France and would have only ever seen hand done manuscripts, but by the age of 60, you'd have seen books, pamphlets, posters all around you.

Wanderer78

20Cent wrote:

But Katie Hopkins is a good example of a shill cashing in on far right paranoia and fear. People like her just aren't a thing on the left because the left will critique their own the right will won't.

Plenty of ****e on the left to, we ain't all that squeaky clean

Wibbs

Slowyourrole wrote: »

Yes, I remembered correctly. "I'm not opposed to diversity, it's the idea of it I'm opposed to" Makes perfect sense.

I am opposed to this current politic of multiculturalism, which as I've pointed out only seems to apply to nations of European heritage. Never hear of it being suggested anywhere else. Never mind that it has demonstrated in every single case to be a decidedly dubious social experiment.

What was the point? Do you think I'm bound somehow to a politician's words?

And the departments in the front line of the migrant issue. Never mind that said politician is always on the side of the politic of multiculturalism, to the degree that he only namechecked the chancers who are white, when countries in Africa are just as high on the list of refusuals and yet even he was calling overall shenanigans.

No, your default position is to try and make the word seem irrelevant.

In your head. Your default position is to make the word relevant to anything that doesn't fit your secondhand world view and as a way to try and shut down any questions around said worldview. You may as well stick your fingers in your ears, it amounts to about the same thing.

nkl12xtw5goz70

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

As I've pointed out the concept of 'West' is relatively new and 'Western Civilisation' newer still, we can put 'Western Democracy' in that basket too.

And as numerous other posters have pointed out, you are wrong. These concepts go back to antiquity.

You can't invent a term and apply it retrospectively to whatever time you choose.

Of course you can. The term homosexual was coined in the late nineteenth century. Does that mean we can't talk about homosexuality in ancient Greece, just because they didn't have that precise terminology?

osarusan

20Cent wrote: »

People like her just aren't a thing on the left because the left will critique their own the right will won't.

Plenty of people on all sides who are either blind to or simply ignore the bullsh!t from their own sides while stridently criticising the bullsh!t from others.

The whole 'the left does/thinks this and the right does/thinks that' is such an infantile generalisation in the first place.

20Cent

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Plenty of ****e on the left to, we ain't all that squeaky clean

Who is the left wing version of Katie Hopkins?

20Cent

20Cent wrote: »

Who is the left wing version of Katie Hopkins?

round and round we go! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

The Nal

20Cent wrote: »

Who is the left wing version of Katie Hopkins?

20Cent

osarusan wrote: »

Plenty of people on all sides who are either blind to or simply ignore the bullsh!t from their own sides while stridently criticising the bullsh!t from others.

The whole 'the left does/thinks this and the right does/thinks that' is such an infantile generalisation in the first place.

The left are famous for their splits.
First order of business form a group.
Item two the split.
They will critique and put down their own.

Doesn't happen as much on the right, they will humour mad people like Alex Jones and Katie Hopkins.

20Cent

Deleted User wrote: »

round and round we go! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Just throw up a video or a name of someone on the left as bonkers and high profile as katie Hopkins. I'll wait.

marieholmfan

Clearly we agree on alot.

I think you're discounting the impact of the Mongols on the Chinese.
China continued to develop (as I'm sure you know (because it's in Paul Kennedy's Great Powers ) they were closing their blast furnaces when the English were opening theirs (I think it's 50 years before).

If we can agree on the impact on Northern Barbarians on China we should be able to agree on the impact of Western Barbarians -Alexander , Southern Barbarians - Arabs and Eastern Barbarians - Mongols on Persia.

There's a good book out about the Arab conquests called Rome's third fall or something like that. The author seems very much up your alley ideologically.

Wibbs wrote: »

Nah, went a bit too far there. It's like those who think that if Rome had never fallen we'd be among the stars. Nope. One consistent feature of empires like the Persian is that after a burst of growth and innovation, stagnation with occasional spells of innovation is a near given. Rome was great for Europe, but it was even better that it fell. Consider China. The last ancient empire still around. It followed that incredible innovation, followed by large tracts of time being stagnant and inward looking model. One of the few times China was ahead of Europe in tech and growth and production was during the Tang dynasty, smack bang in the middle of the "dark ages" of Europe. The now gone Islamic caliphate followed the same trajectory. Incredible burst in the early years, then stagnation.

Wanderer78

20Cent wrote: »

Who is the left wing version of Katie Hopkins?

theres plenty of ****e on the left, self criticism is just as important

markodaly

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I don't know.

Clearly

What I do know is that any time I hear 'Western Civilisation' it is usually spoken of by cranks and frauds.

So, its not that you disagree with the term per say, but you do not like the people who use the term.
An odd argument to be fair.