The Farming Protest @ Dublin City Centre

elperello

elperello wrote: »

Beef can be imported easily from any EU country.
Imported beef is used in the catering trade and in food production facilities.
If you are in doubt about the source ask.

You will find that most beef sold in retail outlets is indeed Irish. Look for the Bord Bia logo and Irish flag. Some imported beef may be sold retail and Bord Bia approved for quality but cannot have the flag on it.

What does ‘catering trade and in food production facilities’ mean, broken down ?

Bishop of hope

dreamers75 wrote: »

Is it true Lidl/Alid were chosen as one of the lads running for IFA president is on the board of Supervalu?

Very irish if true.

Supervalu is a brand owned by Musgrave, each store I think is privately owned or a separate entity from the others.
The board of Musgraves are listed in the link below, see if any match the candidates for the ifa president.
https://www.musgravegroup.com/about-us/board/
I think Musgraves own the centra brand too.

elperello

Deleted User wrote: »

What does ‘catering trade and in food production facilities’ mean, broken down ?

Catering = restaurants, take-aways, cafes, canteens, institutions etc.

Food production facilities = factories producing ready meals, pies, sandwiches, burgers etc.

Basically if there is no provenance on the label the meat could be imported.
As I said above if you are concerned ask.

elperello

Bishop of hope wrote: »

Supervalu is a brand owned by Musgrave, each store I think is privately owned or a separate entity from the others.
The board of Musgraves are listed in the link below, see if any match the candidates for the ifa president.
https://www.musgravegroup.com/about-us/board/
I think Musgraves own the centra brand too.

Coughlan, Cullinan and Woods are the three candidates.

Bishop of hope

elperello wrote: »

Coughlan, Cullinan and Woods are the three candidates.

There could be a connection somewhere with a store or some tenuous link somewhere to some of the candidates, I don't know, but it doesent seem to be with Musgraves board.
That said it does look suspicious that Lidl and aldi were the two picked, doesent seem just random.

Bishop of hope

Protest by the ifa back in swing this morning in Donabate at the tesco distribution centre.
Movement in the beef price not enough yet!
https://m.independent.ie/business/farming/news/farming-news/farmers-shut-down-tesco-hub-as-beef-price-battle-continues-38765990.html

Galwayguy35

They are going to target another depot tomorrow, not sure who else is left.

Tesco, Aldi and Lidl are already done, unless Musgraves maybe.

Bishop of hope

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

They are going to target another depot tomorrow, not sure who else is left.

Tesco, Aldi and Lidl are already done, unless Musgraves maybe.

If I had a distribution centre I'd be lorrying as much stuff out tonight and before 7 am in the morning as I could.

Bishop of hope

Musgraves in kilcock is the target today, they'll soon have to start the rounds again.

Balf

Bishop of hope wrote: »

Musgraves in kilcock is the target today, they'll soon have to start the rounds again.

Do we all have the right to just randomly block entrances to businesses?

Or has someone issued them some unique licence?

sbsquarepants

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't see any farmers trying to dictate what the end user should pay.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

In any business there is a bottom line. Farmers have been expected to operate below that bottom line for too long so the pressures are showing. It is unsustainable.

It's almost as if the penny has dropped there, but i'm sure you just strung a few words together by accident which sounded like sense.

It is of course unsustainable - what happens to unsustainable businesses in the real world Francie?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If there was a genuine 'oversupply' the middleman would not be in a profit making business.

Once again Francie you're proving that you haven't the foggiest idea how the world around you works.

if there's a market for a million widgets at a quid each, the middle man can sell a million widgets at a quid each. To make money he needs to buy them for less than a quid, lets say 50c for arguments sake. If you and your 10 mates come along and say to him, we have million widgets each for sale, what do you think is going to happen?

Is he going to buy all 10 million and loose the shirt off his back, or is he going to use his head and get the million widgets he needs for 25c each?

The moral of the story Francie (because i'm sure you're struggling to find it) is that you and your mates are making too many fúcking widgets - maybe make less of them, or make something else entirely.

The problem is not that the big bad middle man is screwing you over, he is running his business properly, it's that you and your mates don't know your arses from your fúcking elbows and you think the world owes widget makers a living for some bizarre (and as yet completely unexplained) reason.

FrancieBrady

sbsquarepants wrote: »

It's almost as if the penny has dropped there, but i'm sure you just strung a few words together by accident which sounded like sense.

It is of course unsustainable - what happens to unsustainable businesses in the real world Francie?





Once again Francie you're proving that you haven't the foggiest idea how the world around you works.

if there's a market for a million widgets at a quid each, the middle man can sell a million widgets at a quid each. To make money he needs to buy them for less than a quid, lets say 50c for arguments sake. If you and your 10 mates come along and say to him, we have million widgets each for sale, what do you think is going to happen?

Is he going to buy all 10 million and loose the shirt off his back, or is he going to use his head and get the million widgets he needs for 25c each?

The moral of the story Francie (because i'm sure you're struggling to find it) is that you and your mates are making too many fúcking widgets - maybe make less of them, or make something else entirely.

The problem is not that the big bad middle man is screwing you over, he is running his business properly, it's that you and your mates don't know your arses from your fúcking elbows and you think the world owes widget makers a living for some bizarre (and as yet completely unexplained) reason.

My 'mates'? My dad was a tradesman, I live in a town and never farmed.

You don't need to be a farmer to see what is going on here.

You like to simplify things, so I am not going to bother helping you out on this as you seem determined, through some sort of weird bias to stick with simple.

sbsquarepants

Jesus Francie, you are full of surprises today!

Sure you can't actually believe that it's in anybody's interest for unviable, unsustainable businesses to be artificially kept afloat? Well apart from the business owner of course!

If your father couldn't make a living at whatever trade he was involved in, what would he have had to do? Put his hand out for yet another subsidy, or change jobs? What would you have to do?

Why are farmers different to carpenters, or electricians, or vets or musicians, or........? The list is literally endless.

Why should farming exist outside the normal laws of economics?

FrancieBrady

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Jesus Francie, you are full of surprises today!

Sure you can't actually believe that it's in anybody's interest for unviable, unsustainable businesses to be artificially kept afloat? Well apart from the business owner of course!

If your father couldn't make a living at whatever trade he was involved in, what would he have had to do? Put his hand out for yet another subsidy, or change jobs? What would you have to do?

Why are farmers different to carpenters, or electricians, or vets or musicians, or........? The list is literally endless.

Why should farming exist outside the normal laws of economics?

Did a farmer beat you as a child or something.

Sometime when the bile subsides, sit yourself down and study the system of subsidy in the EU and how it keeps your food cheap and choice available.

Then get back to us on 'difference'. Seems to me if you wish to reorganise farming to your model that it is going to have to happen at an EU level, if not worldwide. Unless you want to be paying what that can of tomatoes you throw into your bolognese actually costs to produce and get to your countertop?

And 'I don't eat bolognese is not the answer here'.

sbsquarepants

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Did a farmer beat you as a child or something.

No, there's no child beating handout so they weren't interested:D

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Sometime when the bile subsides, sit yourself down and study the system of subsidy in the EU and how it keeps your food cheap and choice available.

OK. Cheap food is good - but not too cheap. Choice is good - but not too much.

I get the farmers argument, it's just not a very good one - Basically it boils down to buy my shít and pay what i want you to, cos, eh ....reasons and stuff.

But can you explain to me why, after very heavily subsidising the production, we need to also now force processors to pay above market rates, and could you pay particular emphasis on how this would benefit anyone bar the farmer, cos that's the bit where i'm struggling.

What's in this for me, the consumer? The joy of knowing Paddy from ballygobackwards gets to ignore reality and play farmer for another little while?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And 'I don't eat bolognese is not the answer here'.

I'm not a big pasta eater but when I do I'm more of an arabiata man myself.

Bishop of hope

sbsquarepants wrote: »

No, there's no child beating handout so they weren't interested:D



OK. Cheap food is good - but not too cheap. Choice is good - but not too much.

I get the farmers argument, it's just not a very good one - Basically it boils down to buy my shít and pay what i want you to, cos, eh ....reasons and stuff.

But can you explain to me why, after very heavily subsidising the production, we need to also now force processors to pay above market rates, and could you pay particular emphasis on how this would benefit anyone bar the farmer, cos that's the bit where i'm struggling.

What's in this for me, the consumer? The joy of knowing Paddy from ballygobackwards gets to ignore reality and play farmer for another little while?




I'm not a big pasta eater but when I do I'm more of an arabiata man myself.

It's been explained to you several times before, a person would be blue in the face stating it, it benefits everyone if food is cheaper that's why farming subsidies exist.
Now the farmers subsidies aren't enough for him to live on, he has to make a living too and that's determined by the price he gets for his product.
Farmers do not exist beyond the normal laws of economics, the live within it.
Many industries are subsidised, if you have a gripe with the subsidies then that's not an argument for the farmers, that's an argument for the Govt or the eu politicos, but if they take away the subsidies then food prices will sky rocket, that's where the benefit of the subsidies comes back to the consumer, even your good self.
I think I said this before, you don't understand it really, just want a gripe and moan

Balf

Bishop of hope wrote: »

It's been explained to you several times before, a person would be blue in the face stating it, it benefits everyone if food is cheaper that's why farming subsidies exist.

Most of our agricultural production is exported - as in, 90% of our beef. So, just to be clear, the link between subsidy and the domestic consumer benefits are lost.

We seem to be subsidising farmers to product products that, even with the subsidy, they say they cannot sell at a profit.

While the consumer needs to pay for imported food, as domestic production is highly concentrated in a couple of markets. Markets that are now very much at risk, given the UK election result.

All points to a need for farmers to produce different products; but they seem to be very far from that realisation.

Bishop of hope

Balf wrote: »

Most of our agricultural production is exported - as in, 90% of our beef. So, just to be clear, the link between subsidy and the domestic consumer benefits are lost.

We seem to be subsidising farmers to product products that, even with the subsidy, they say they cannot sell at a profit.

While the consumer needs to pay for imported food, as domestic production is highly concentrated in a couple of markets. Markets that are now very much at risk, given the UK election result.

All points to a need for farmers to produce different products; but they seem to be very far from that realisation.

Most of that imported foodstuff is subsidised at source also, what goes around comes around so to speak.
British farmers biggest fear after brexit are there subsidies.
We subsidise many more things besides agriculture and export them too, this is not unique to farming and not unique to Ireland.
The number of people employed through agricultural based industries in Ireland is by no means insignificant and the returns of monies to the exchequer through the exports it produces is significant also

Balf

I don't especially want to get into one of those ding-dong exchanges, but you are making weak points.

Bishop of hope wrote: »

Most of that imported foodstuff is subsidised at source also, what goes around comes around so to speak.
British farmers biggest fear after brexit are there subsidies.

I think its pretty well known that the main impact of CAP is that food prices within the EU are higher than outside.

Bishop of hope wrote: »

We subsidise many more things besides agriculture and export them too, this is not unique to farming and not unique to Ireland.

How does this make it sensible to subsidise farmers to produce products that, apparently, they can't sell at a profit?

Bishop of hope wrote: »

The number of people employed through agricultural based industries in Ireland is by no means insignificant and the returns of monies to the exchequer through the exports it produces is significant also

Figures on folk employed in the agri-food sector include things like the woman in Tesco selling you carrots from the Netherlands. Again, a weak argument.

Bishop of hope

Balf wrote: »

I don't especially want to get into one of those ding-dong exchanges, but you are making weak points.I think its pretty well known that the main impact of CAP is that food prices within the EU are higher than outside.How does this make it sensible to subsidise farmers to produce products that, apparently, they can't sell at a profit?Figures on folk employed in the agri-food sector include things like the woman in Tesco selling you carrots from the Netherlands. Again, a weak argument.

No they don't, the women in tesco etc work in the retail sector.

FrancieBrady

Bishop of hope wrote: »

No they don't, the women in tesco etc work in the retail sector.

Plenty of agricultural earning swilling about the tills of Tesco down around Mitchelstown and the other huge processing plants dotted around the country.

The poster is just intent in ignoring all the spin offs.

Bishop of hope

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Plenty of agricultural earning swilling about the tills of Tesco down around Mitchelstown and the other huge processing plants dotted around the country.

The poster is just intent in ignoring all the spin offs.

This might antagonise some,


https://www.farmersjournal.ie/beam-scheme-payments-have-begun-for-farmers-515502

wrangler

Tractors are supposed to be coming to town on Tuesday....... should be good

Balf

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Plenty of agricultural earning swilling about the tills of Tesco down around Mitchelstown and the other huge processing plants dotted around the country.

The poster is just intent in ignoring all the spin offs.

Primary agriculture only accounts for a couple of percent of national income.

Ye have an exaggerated sense of your own importance, which is only the start of your problems.

FrancieBrady

Balf wrote: »

Primary agriculture only accounts for a couple of percent of national income.

Ye have an exaggerated sense of your own importance, which is only the start of your problems.

Once again, I am not a farmer. I live in a town but I am not so completely blind or shortsighted enough to either amplify the system of subsidy across the EU nor pretend the massive spin off to local economies farming activity provides does not exist.

Symbiotic relationships again. Without rural economies feeding into them cities too would die.

Balf

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Once again, I am not a farmer. I live in a town but I am not so completely blind or shortsighted enough to either amplify the system of subsidy across the EU nor pretend the massive spin off to local economies farming activity provides does not exist.

Symbiotic relationships again. Without rural economies feeding into them cities too would die.

Big words don't cover up confused thinking.

Most farm household generate their real incomes from off farm employment.

Which means your point is strangled at birth, before it even leaves the paddock.

Irish agriculture probably could make a contribution to national welfare. But not by preserving the trite shibboleths that you rely on.

Bishop of hope

Balf wrote: »

Big words don't cover up confused thinking.

Most farm household generate their real incomes from off farm employment.

Which means your point is strangled at birth, before it even leaves the paddock.

Irish agriculture probably could make a contribution to national welfare. But not by preserving the trite shibboleths that you rely on.

OK I see this is a private argument maybe, but I'm a fecker for sticking my nose in.
Agriculture actually generates more for the Irish economy than most other industries with the same number of people involved.

https://www.teagasc.ie/rural-economy/rural-economy/agri-food-business/agriculture-in-ireland/

FrancieBrady

Bishop of hope wrote: »

OK I see this is a private argument maybe, but I'm a fecker for sticking my nose in.
Agriculture actually generates more for the Irish economy than most other industries with the same number of people involved.

https://www.teagasc.ie/rural-economy/rural-economy/agri-food-business/agriculture-in-ireland/

You'd have to be blind not to recognise it.

FrancieBrady

Balf wrote: »

Big words don't cover up confused thinking.

Most farm household generate their real incomes from off farm employment.

Which means your point is strangled at birth, before it even leaves the paddock.

Irish agriculture probably could make a contribution to national welfare. But not by preserving the trite shibboleths that you rely on.

Sorry for using a perfectly ordinary word that challenged you.

Other than that you haven't remotely changed my mind.

Balf

Bishop of hope wrote: »

OK I see this is a private argument maybe, but I'm a fecker for sticking my nose in.
Agriculture actually generates more for the Irish economy than most other industries with the same number of people involved.

https://www.teagasc.ie/rural-economy/rural-economy/agri-food-business/agriculture-in-ireland/

The data quoted by Teagasc actually says the opposite. It says agrifood accounts for 8.5% of employment, but only 7% of GVA.

Teagasc either don't understand what that means, or don't care.

Bishop of hope

Balf wrote: »

The data quoted by Teagasc actually says the opposite. It says agrifood accounts for 8.5% of employment, but only 7% of GVA.

Teagasc either don't understand what that means, or don't care.

7% +1.6% = 8.6‰

lalababa

I just joined the thread, don't know what's going on. Don't really hold with tractor protests .... even though not much gets achieved in this political system without kicking up a fuss! If it's not on RTE news !
That's why the nurses/teachers/Gardai / bus/luas drivers and whatever your having yourself strike.
Farmers don't really have a union and are self employed, they used to have the IFA but their power seems to have declined in the new political climate of FG/FF minority Government s.
Agri food sector accounts for 10% of 2.2 million working people or 220,000 . Any other sector of such magnitude being cut at a producers level of 20%(beef prices) and there would be strikes(think of the civil servant unions).
If subsidies were taken away across the EU. The price of beef would rise considerably. But alot of farms would give up, farm sizes would increase.The full industrialization of farming would begin in Ernest. We'd eventually end up like the US.
Farm jobs would decrease.There would be pressure from Black market non standard meat imports.
Not only would the shopper pay more but the veracity of the product would be in doubt.
The middle men are in a race to the bottom, demanding cheaper and cheaper primary produce. They destroyed the pig industry, they are trying it on in the beef and will later do it to the dairy.
To counteract the mass industrialization of the beef industry all Irish farmers should really go Organic. It would solve both the high input cost problen and the too high a supply problem.
Basically do you want meat from an organic ,grass only, no medications,lowly stocked family farm for $10/kg or an industrialized cattle shed (5,000+) animals who may never see a field and suffer from all the associate d health and welfare problems for $8/kg..?

Balf

Bishop of hope wrote: »

7% +1.6% = 8.6‰

You are reading it wrong.

The 7% Teagasc figure for the overall agrifood sector includes the 1.6% from primary agriculture.

In fact, I suspect Teagasc may have mangled the percentages, as a quick tot suggests these 13.9 is only 5.5% of 254.7.

Bishop of hope

Balf wrote: »

You are reading it wrong.

The 7% Teagasc figure for the overall agrifood sector includes the 1.6% from primary agriculture.

In fact, I suspect Teagasc may have mangled the percentages, as a quick tot suggests these 13.9 is only 5.5% of 254.7.

" Agri-facts
Ireland covers an area of 6.9 million hectares, of which 4.5 million hectares is used for agriculture and a further 730,000 hectares for forestry.
There are 137,500 farms in Ireland – the vast majority of which are family owned - and the average size is 32.4 hectares.
Employment in the agri-food sector accounted for 173,800 jobs, 7.9% of total employment, on average in 2017, according to the CSO Labour Force Survey."

https://ec.europa.eu/ireland/news/key-eu-policy-areas/agriculture_en

All show that it accounts to a heavy chunk of our economy, figures are hard to pin down exactly but at least 8 to ten percent are employed in it.
I'm leaving this here anyway, no point in butting heads. I know full well the worth of agriculture, subsidies and all to the economy and I believe that farmers are entitled to a bigger and fairer price for their beef.
A monopoly has taken over the processing lines and is trying to make little of the man producing the product.

Balf

Bishop of hope wrote: »

I'm leaving this here anyway, no point in butting heads. I know full well the worth of agriculture, subsidies and all to the economy and I believe that farmers are entitled to a bigger and fairer price for their beef.
A monopoly has taken over the processing lines and is trying to make little of the man producing the product.

In fairness, you are leaving it there after your contention was refuted.

And, unfortunately, just repeating a lot of the usual shibboleths.

Bishop of hope

Balf wrote: »

In fairness, you are leaving it there after your contention was refuted.

And, unfortunately, just repeating a lot of the usual shibboleths.

I don't think you refuted anything tbh, I produced links you don't believe, no point in me going on, you're just arguing for the sake of it.

Balf

Bishop of hope wrote: »

I don't think you refuted anything tbh, I produced links you don't believe, no point in me going on, you're just arguing for the sake of it.

No, I believe your link.

It says "The agri-food sector in Ireland in 2016 generated 7% of gross value added (€13.9 billion), 9.8% of Ireland’s merchandise exports and provided 8.5% of national employment."

Which refutes your assertion.

Patser

wrangler wrote: »

Tractors are supposed to be coming to town on Tuesday....... should be good

Any more details on this? They planning another blockade in Dublin, or is it more organised

Beechwoodspark

Creed and his boss Leo can’t say there weren’t given notice if it does happen

Balf

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Creed and his boss Leo can’t say there weren’t given notice if it does happen

No, they can only say there is feck all they can do if beef farmers can't see a need to get into a different product.

wrangler

Patser wrote: »

Any more details on this? They planning another blockade in Dublin, or is it more organised

It's tomorrow anyway, Dail is finishing then for seven weeks for christmas,
I'm not a supporter of the protest, so I'm not privileged to any information on it.
Price is rising all over Europe, but not here, so farmers are very angry.
If they're let into the city anything could happen.
They're a new organisation copying european protests

Thelonious Monk

They're back, woohoo. I wish they were permanent, they make my lunchtime walks far more pleasant with the cars gone from certain streets.

Edgware

Leave them at it. After a while they'll get pissed off. In the meantime they can shuff their beef up their hole. Plenty other choices of meat, fish, vegetable options.

LineOfBeauty

Farmer Protest 2: Electric Boogaloo

Allinall

Every single tractor should be checked for tax, insurance, tyres.

Then dipped for dyed diesel.

Only then should they be clamped or towed for illegal parking.

Galwayguy35

Allinall wrote: »

Every single tractor should be checked for tax, insurance, tyres.

Then dipped for dyed diesel.

Only then should they be clamped or towed for illegal parking.

You do realise it's legal to run a tractor on green diesel?

Beechwoodspark

Fully behind the farmers

Keep it up

Ramp it up!!

The public are behind you

Allinall

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

You do realise it's legal to run a tractor on green diesel?

On public roads?

I don’t think so.

elperello

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

You do realise it's legal to run a tractor on green diesel?

And no doubt you realise the reason why it's legal to run a tractor on green diesel.

Blocking traffic on Stephen's Green is hardly agricultural use.

Beechwoodspark

elperello wrote: »

And no doubt you realise the reason why it's legal to run a tractor on green diesel.

Blocking traffic on Stephen's Green is hardly agricultural use.

Peaceful protest