The Farming Protest @ Dublin City Centre

Edgware

Graces7 wrote: »

Three of my former landlords, and their brothers, farmed, but had full time jobs with the Council. They would rather have been farming full time but had children, and were very realistic about earnings.

Tough luck. We all do what we have to do to survive. I've no doubt they forgot to mention the Brussels money

Panch18

Edgware wrote: »

Tough luck. We all do what we have to do to survive. I've no doubt they forgot to mention the Brussels money

A huge amount of business and industry in Ireland, and elsewhere, get subsidised in 1 fashion or another.

So lets not make out like farming is unique to be getting subsidies - it most definitely isn't

Bishop of hope

Edgware wrote: »

Tough luck. We all do what we have to do to survive. I've no doubt they forgot to mention the Brussels money

Not much money in sprouts.

dresden8

mfceiling wrote: »

....when you are working 7 days a week day and night......

That auld canard.

When you can spend weeks protesting outside a meat plant putting other people out of work and spend days disrupting Dublin don't give me that 7 days a week sh1te.

FrancieBrady

Edgware wrote: »

Tough luck. We all do what we have to do to survive. I've no doubt they forgot to mention the Brussels money

Gosh, is there any chance we could move past the trite 'only farmers get Brussels money'?

LineOfBeauty

mfceiling wrote: »

To be fair not all the farmers are like this. It's a race to the bottom with supermarkets, processors etc all looking to maximize profits but make sure they don't take any of the hit.

I'm not defending the protest but when you are working 7 days a week day and night and your purchaser wants you to sell your goods at cost or below it must make you question why you bother.

Remember a lot of farmers have taken their own lives over the financial pressures of keeping going and all because we want the "3 for €10" deal in Tesco.

That 3 for €10 is fantastic though and, if you're clever, is basically dinner for a week for a single person. I empathize with the plight of the farmer, but ultimately if Tesco (or whoever else) are offering you half decent food for a very good price then of course you're going to take it, irregardless of how much they are ripping off the farmer producing the food.

FrancieBrady

dresden8 wrote: »

That auld canard.

When you can spend weeks protesting outside a meat plant putting other people out of work and spend days disrupting Dublin don't give me that 7 days a week sh1te.

How many farmers spent 'weeks' protesting outside meat plants? Ever heard of 'rotas'?

If you live in a rural location or small town, it would take a person of average intelligence about 2 hours to work out that farming with animals is not 7 days of working hard, it is 7 days of being there with periods of hard work. Certain jobs have to be done, day in day out year round.
You...or somebody you pay, has to be there for 7 days a week 365 days a year. That's the commitment. I wouldn't be prepared to make it, but I am glad there are those that are.

Gretas Gonna Get Ya!

mfceiling wrote: »

To be fair not all the farmers are like this. It's a race to the bottom with supermarkets, processors etc all looking to maximize profits but make sure they don't take any of the hit.

I'm not defending the protest but when you are working 7 days a week day and night and your purchaser wants you to sell your goods at cost or below it must make you question why you bother.

Remember a lot of farmers have taken their own lives over the financial pressures of keeping going and all because we want the "3 for €10" deal in Tesco.

Nobody gets sympathy for busting their butt for a paycheck anymore... whether that's working for someone else or on your own land. (and lets be fair, everyone is working for someone at the end of the day - whether you own your land or not)

Farmers had it handy in this country for a long time... that's why many of them got into property development, as they had so much money they didn't even know what to do with it.

If your dairy or beef farm has become unsustainable, move on and find a new profession. Plenty of other people need to do this in other industries. No need for taking one's life over this kind of thing. Modern farming is a thankless job anyway, even if it was financially sustainable.... the reality of working your own land very rarely stacks up to the ideal many have in their mind's eye!

I don't really see how protesting will dramatically alter the financial landscape. Irish dairy and beef is already being produced for high end markets, so I don't see how you can charge more to these markets when they could easily just use cheaper products and most consumers would not know the difference anyway!

dresden8

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How many farmers spent 'weeks' protesting outside meat plants? Ever heard of 'rotas'?

If you live in a rural location or small town, it would take a person of average intelligence about 2 hours to work out that farming with animals is not 7 days of working hard, it is 7 days of being there with periods of hard work. Certain jobs have to be done, day in day out year round.
You...or somebody you pay, has to be there for 7 days a week 365 days a year. That's the commitment. I wouldn't be prepared to make it, but I am glad there are those that are.

7 days a week, day and night.........

sbsquarepants

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What do you do for a living sbsquarepants?

I organise transport for a construction crowd, the pay is so so, not a hand out in sight. Nobody except myself and my missus really gives a rats arse if my wages don't cover the bills - why would they? (Well the bank manager also cares, but his concern is for himself not for me)

Like a lot of farmers i'm earning less now than i was 10 years ago. I actually have my eye out for another job at the moment for that very reason. I have no more god given right to do what i want for a living than anyone else does.

It's a big bad world out there Francie!

Gary kk

dresden8 wrote: »

7 days a week, day and night.........

Well just getting into calving season so yeah on call 7 days a week at 24 hours a day.

FrancieBrady

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I organise transport for a construction crowd, the pay is so so, not a hand out in sight. Nobody except myself and my missus really gives a rats arse if my wages don't cover the bills - why would they? (Well the bank manager also cares, but his concern is for himself not for me)

Like a lot of farmers i'm earning less now than i was 10 years ago. I actually have my eye out for another job at the moment for that very reason. I have no more god given right to do what i want for a living than anyone else does.

It's a big bad world out there Francie!

10 years and you are still there taking less wages and looking for a new job? Sounds to me like your bosses have you by the proverbial S&C's.
I.E. you have no clout or power.

sbsquarepants

Gary kk wrote: »

Well just getting into calving season so yeah on call 7 days a week at 24 hours a day.

Why should that be anyones concern but your own?

Gary kk

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Why should that be anyones concern but your own?

Lol it's not I was answering a question or so I thought it's not even my concern. Would you like me to post something that you can really attack me about

Panch18

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

That 3 for €10 is fantastic though and, if you're clever, is basically dinner for a week for a single person. I empathize with the plight of the farmer, but ultimately if Tesco (or whoever else) are offering you half decent food for a very good price then of course you're going to take it, irregardless of how much they are ripping off the farmer producing the food.

I think you have neatly summarised the problem that farmers the world over are facing - the vast majority of people are willing to accept a average standard of food for cheap price so that people can spend their money on "lifestyle" As farmers we need to realise that the general public really don't care about food anymore, only to pay it lip service. Farmers have been sold a pup with all this "the consumer wants xxx" as a means to control farmers and bring in ever stricter and costly rules and regulations. Fact is the general public only care about as cheap as possible.

Not having a go at you personally by the way - far from it. You just wrote the modern reality

sbsquarepants

FrancieBrady wrote: »

10 years and you are still there taking less wages and looking for a new job? Sounds to me like your bosses have you by the proverbial S&C's.
I.E. you have no clout or power.

Not so. You need to pay more attention Francie. I said i'm earning less now than i was 10 years ago, not that my wages have been steadily falling for 10 years. As i've constantly argued with you - a job is a 2 way street - they need my labour and i need their money so we come to a deal. My power is that i need to agree to this deal, i can always tell them no and go work at something else, which is something i'm considering doing, but it's a very handy job so i'm no particular hurry.

What absolutely nobody would support me in though, is insisting that this the only job i will do, but i need to be subsidised because it doesn't pay my bills- and that's entirely how it should be.

Why should your tax money go to paying my bills?

And if i was to tell you that, not only was my job not paying my bills, but it was actually a really hard job and i was working 100 hours a week for less than minimum wage, that i had even borrowed up to my eye balls, just so i could do this terrible low paying job, you'd probably think i was a fúcking idiot - and what's more, you'd be absolutely right!

Gretas Gonna Get Ya!

Gary kk wrote: »

Well just getting into calving season so yeah on call 7 days a week at 24 hours a day.

And if you were getting enough money, you would be happy with this lifestyle? Or is it just a necessary evil?

The reason I ask is because many farmers complain about the job, but then has this aspect of the job ever been much different? And if you were getting great money again, would you be working much less hours?

I got plenty of opportunities to get into farming from a young age, growing up in a rural part of the country... but I never fancied it. All the farmers I knew just looked exhausted and miserable if I'm being honest. Stuck working the same job in the same place, talking to the same people every day... long hours, isolated, then you lump in money problems on top of this! Not for me, thank you!

sbsquarepants

Gary kk wrote: »

Lol it's not I was answering a question or so I thought it's not even my concern. Would you like me to post something that you can really attack me about

I'm not attacking you, i'm just asking you a question. Lots of jobs are difficult, have unsociable hours and so on - who cares?

If you don't like the hours, they pay, the conditions and so on - get a different job. Problem solved!

Nobody owes anyone else a living.

Thelonious Monk

Some farmer was moaning on rte 1 today that they're seeing none of the benefits of our current boom and they want more money. Neither am i tbh! If i wanted to get rich id probably try and get a job in google or fb or wherever the money is now. I wonder if i can get subsidised for teaching music...

FrancieBrady

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Not so. You need to pay more attention Francie. I said i'm earning less now than i was 10 years ago, not that my wages have been steadily falling for 10 years. As i've constantly argued with you - a job is a 2 way street - they need my labour and i need their money so we come to a deal. My power is that i need to agree to this deal, i can always tell them no and go work at something else, which is something i'm considering doing, but it's a very handy job so i'm no particular hurry.

What absolutely nobody would support me in though, is insisting that this the only job i will do, but i need to be subsidised because it doesn't pay my bills- and that's entirely how it should be.

Why should your tax money go to paying my bills?

And if i was to tell you that, not only was my job not paying my bills, but it was actually a really hard job and i was working 100 hours a week for less than minimum wage, that i had even borrowed up to my eye balls, just so i could do this terrible low paying job, you'd probably think i was a fúcking idiot - and what's more, you'd be absolutely right!

But you are not taking your own advice.

Did your wages fall to a 10 year low in one fell swoop? I doubt it.

Like farmers the reality is, there are constraints on you and your choices. That is in fact the 'real world' you are quick to talk about.

And please, the 'farmers are the only ones benefiting from subsidies' stchick is old now.

The construction business would be dead as a dodo if it weren't for a myriad of subsidy from motorways to external insulation.

Symbiotic relationships Sb! Investigate how it really all works.

Edgware

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Gosh, is there any chance we could move past the trite 'only farmers get Brussels money'?

Maybe when all the others abandon their workplace to block up the capital city

wrangler

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Some farmer was moaning on rte 1 today that they're seeing none of the benefits of our current boom and they want more money. Neither am i tbh! If i wanted to get rich id probably try and get a job in google or fb or wherever the money is now. I wonder if i can get subsidised for teaching music...

Farmers are well subsidised but that's a two edged sword, if there was a subsidy for teaching music there'd too many providing the classes and the competition would reduce the hourly rate ........ unless of course you're civil service where value for money means nothing.

wrangler

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Some farmer was moaning on rte 1 today that they're seeing none of the benefits of our current boom and they want more money. Neither am i tbh! If i wanted to get rich id probably try and get a job in google or fb or wherever the money is now. I wonder if i can get subsidised for teaching music...

Please don't judge all farmers by those in Dublin today, Local lorry driver that was in Dublin yesterday thought it was an IFA protest (which it wasn't) and heavily criticised their carry on yesterday. I used to be an IFA rep so he thought he was talking to someone involved

Bishop of hope

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I'm not attacking you, i'm just asking you a question. Lots of jobs are difficult, have unsociable hours and so on - who cares?

If you don't like the hours, they pay, the conditions and so on - get a different job. Problem solved!

Nobody owes anyone else a living.

That's not quite fair really, everybody tat works is owed a living.
Any service or goods you buy or use is deserving of a wage or a price that enables the vendor to make a living.
You or me personally don't owe farmers a living, but the people buying their produce do and if the feel they are being underpaid they, like everyone else, have a right to protest about it.
The people always affected are those that aren't involved in the protest itself, but that's the nature of most protests

Thelonious Monk

wrangler wrote: »

Farmers are well subsidised but that's a two edged sword, if there was a subsidy for teaching music there'd too many providing the classes and the competition would reduce the hourly rate ........ unless of course you're civil service where value for money means nothing.

No I'm private, not sure if that's good or bad.

facehugger99

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The construction business would be dead as a dodo if it weren't for a myriad of subsidy from motorways to external insulation.
.

Capital investment is a subsidy? - Who knew.:rolleyes:

Bishop of hope

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

No I'm private, not sure if that's good or bad.

Nothing wrong with it.

sbsquarepants

FrancieBrady wrote: »

But you are not taking your own advice.

Did your wages fall to a 10 year low in one fell swoop? I doubt it.

My own advice is if it doesn't suit you, don't whinge, do something else. I always follow my own advice!

As i said it's a peaks and throughs kind of place, a good year could easily be 40 to 50% up on a bad one pay wise. Right now i'm getting about the same as i was 10 years ago, 2 years ago i was making a lot more, that's just the way this place works. There's was also an awful lot more work involved so it's swings and roundabouts i suppose. It still pays my bills even in a bad year.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Like farmers the reality is, there are constraints on you and your choices. That is in fact the 'real world' you are quick to talk about.

There are of course, i have responsibilities i need to meet, same as everyone else. I'd much rather be at home now but reality bites as they say!

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The construction business would be dead as a dodo if it weren't for a myriad of subsidy from motorways to external insulation.

Symbiotic relationships Sb! Investigate how it really all works.

Motorways serve a bit more than the construction industry, and insulation grants are for the government to try avoid carbon penalties, not to help insulation fitters!

Bishop of hope wrote: »

That's not quite fair really, everybody tat works is owed a living.
Any service or goods you buy or use is deserving of a wage or a price that enables the vendor to make a living.
You or me personally don't owe farmers a living, but the people buying their produce do and if the feel they are being underpaid they, like everyone else, have a right to protest about it.
The people always affected are those that aren't involved in the protest itself, but that's the nature of most protests

That's just not true. You are not owed a living no matter how hard you work - if you can't sell your products you go out of business. You can't just make whatever product you choose, whack on a certain mark up and demand that the world buys it - that is just not how business works.

Bishop of hope

sbsquarepants wrote: »

That's just not true. You are not owed a living no matter how hard you work - if you can't sell your products you go out of business. You can't just make whatever product you choose, whack on a certain mark up and demand that the world buys it - that is just not how business works.

To a point I agree.
But this country and others all agree that agriculture has to continue to be subsidised, it benefits the consumer as well as the farmer.
If the farmer thereafter feel he is entitled to more money for his product he has the right to protest about it.
Other jobs, like nurses and teachers went on strike lately and all got something, farmers as yet have gotten feck all and will continue to protest.
Farming isn't the only industry subsidised so luckily you're not in Govt or we could close down Ireland.
https://www.enterprise-ireland.com/en/Start-a-Business-in-Ireland/Startups-from-Outside-Ireland/Funding-and-Supports-for-Start-Ups-In-Ireland/Government-support-through-Enterprise-Ireland.html

Graces7

Edgware wrote: »

Tough luck. We all do what we have to do to survive. I've no doubt they forgot to mention the Brussels money

They were not grumbling; just accepting the way it is and getting on with it. There was no bitterness in them at all and no way was I going to qui them about money. Decent hardworking folk . Doing the best for their families. So bin the " tough luck " angle please!

Thelonious Monk

So now they're on their way to blocking Dublin Port I believe. Can the Garda not just stop their movements?

sbsquarepants

Bishop of hope wrote: »

To a point I agree.
But this country and others all agree that agriculture has to continue to be subsidised, it benefits the consumer as well as the farmer.
If the farmer thereafter feel he is entitled to more money for his product he has the right to protest about it.
Other jobs, like nurses and teachers went on strike lately and all got something, farmers as yet have gotten feck all and will continue to protest.
Farming isn't the only industry subsidised so luckily you're not in Govt or we could close down Ireland.
https://www.enterprise-ireland.com/en/Start-a-Business-in-Ireland/Startups-from-Outside-Ireland/Funding-and-Supports-for-Start-Ups-In-Ireland/Government-support-through-Enterprise-Ireland.html

Farming is already subsidised quite enough.

Surely the whole point of subsidising farming is to provide a cheap, secure food supply for the population of the country?

At the moment it's only doing that if we all agree to only eat beef washed down with a glass of milk. It's just a gravy train at this stage. Enough is enough.

I think there's possibly a case to be argued to stop subsidising farming altogether, let it operate on purely market terms and we all just pay the market price of beef, milk etc IF we want to buy the product.

We're subsidising people to over produce milk to make formula for babies on the far side of the planet ffs. How is that securing our food supply? We've gobshítes blocking up the streets arguing about how vital it is to the country that they get to produce beef - then exporting 80 odd percent of it.

Gary kk

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Farming is already subsidised quite enough.

Surely the whole point of subsidising farming is to provide a cheap, secure food supply for the population of the country?

At the moment it's only doing that if we all agree to only eat beef washed down with a glass of milk. It's just a gravy train at this stage. Enough is enough.

I think there's possibly a case to be argued to stop subsidising farming altogether, let it operate on purely market terms and we all just pay the market price of beef, milk etc IF we want to buy the product.

We're subsidising people to over produce milk to make formula for babies on the far side of the planet ffs. How is that securing our food supply? We've gobshítes blocking up the streets arguing about how vital it is to the country that they get to produce beef - then exporting 80 odd percent of it.

You can say good luck to Amazon

wrangler

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

No I'm private, not sure if that's good or bad.

You have to do your job well or you won't have a job so I suppose that's good and bad.

sbsquarepants

Gary kk wrote: »

You can say good luck to Amazon

Why would less farming subsidies effect the amazon?

I'd imagine if anything it would ease pressure on it? It's not really something i've given much thought though.

FrancieBrady

sbsquarepants wrote: »

My own advice is if it doesn't suit you, don't whinge, do something else. I always follow my own advice!

As i said it's a peaks and throughs kind of place, a good year could easily be 40 to 50% up on a bad one pay wise. Right now i'm getting about the same as i was 10 years ago, 2 years ago i was making a lot more, that's just the way this place works. There's was also an awful lot more work involved so it's swings and roundabouts i suppose. It still pays my bills even in a bad year.



There are of course, i have responsibilities i need to meet, same as everyone else. I'd much rather be at home now but reality bites as they say!




Motorways serve a bit more than the construction industry, and insulation grants are for the government to try avoid carbon penalties, not to help insulation fitters!



That's just not true. You are not owed a living no matter how hard you work - if you can't sell your products you go out of business. You can't just make whatever product you choose, whack on a certain mark up and demand that the world buys it - that is just not how business works.

You missed the point.

What I am saying is, subsidies, grants, tax breaks, government infrastructural spends are all forms of subsidy that keeps the construction business buoyant - from motorway building through to insulation grants.
The ripple effect.

It is bull**** to call out farmers as the only recipient of subsidy.

FrancieBrady

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Why would less farming subsidies effect the amazon?

I'd imagine if anything it would ease pressure on it? It's not really something i've given much thought though.

It figures that you haven't.
If you keep wanting cheap meat then you are saying goodbye to rainforest.

Relationships again.

dresden8

sbsquarepants wrote: »

That's just not true. You are not owed a living no matter how hard you work - if you can't sell your products you go out of business. You can't just make whatever product you choose, whack on a certain mark up and demand that the world buys it - that is just not how business works.

Indeed. When did the Kulaks go communist?

weldoninhio

Bishop of hope wrote: »

That's not quite fair really, everybody tat works is owed a living.
Any service or goods you buy or use is deserving of a wage or a price that enables the vendor to make a living.
You or me personally don't owe farmers a living, but the people buying their produce do and if the feel they are being underpaid they, like everyone else, have a right to protest about it.
The people always affected are those that aren't involved in the protest itself, but that's the nature of most protests

So if i decide i'm a artist and people won't buy my art at a price I deem worthy, and i find some likeminded artists, we can block Dublin city, because it's our right??? :rolleyes:

Gary kk

weldoninhio wrote: »

So if i decide i'm a artist and people won't buy my art at a price I deem worthy, and i find some likeminded artists, we can block Dublin city, because it's our right??? :rolleyes:

Lol great comparison wish I thought of it.

Thelonious Monk

weldoninhio wrote: »

So if i decide i'm a artist and people won't buy my art at a price I deem worthy, and i find some likeminded artists, we can block Dublin city, because it's our right??? :rolleyes:

Is it performance art that also lays waste to our waterways and wildlife?

Gary kk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Is it performance art that also lays waste to our waterways and wildlife?

No that's Irish water

FrancieBrady

weldoninhio wrote: »

So if i decide i'm a artist and people won't buy my art at a price I deem worthy, and i find some likeminded artists, we can block Dublin city, because it's our right??? :rolleyes:

Nothing like that actually.

'The art buyer and the gallery owner are conspiring together and dictating the price regardless of what it cost the artist to make' would sum up the situation better.

It is also not the only issue they have.

sbsquarepants

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You missed the point.

What I am saying is, subsidies, grants, tax breaks, government infrastructural spends are all forms of subsidy that keeps the construction business buoyant - from motorway building through to insulation grants.
The ripple effect.

It is bull**** to call out farmers as the only recipient of subsidy.

Motorways are not a subsidy for anything - it's state infrastructure. It's like arguing that the national grid is a subsidy to light bulb makers!

And anyway that is not my point, subsidies exist in various forms for various industries, such is life.

My point is that beef farming is already very well subsidised, we are producing 6 or 7 times as much beef as we need. Enough is enough.

It's basic supply and demand - If you're making way too much of a product, why on earth would the price be high?

It's a mess of farmers own making - they're greedy and want easy money, but they've shot themselves in the foot by massively overproducing.

Don't complain about it, don't block up the city, don't make a nuisance of yourself, instead just kindly fúck off back to Farmistan and make something else!

Panch18

weldoninhio wrote: »

So if i decide i'm a artist and people won't buy my art at a price I deem worthy, and i find some likeminded artists, we can block Dublin city, because it's our right??? :rolleyes:

Ah yes

You seem to be forgetting the tax exemption that artists get whereby their first 50k is tax free

Now there's a subsidy for you!!

FrancieBrady

sbsquarepants wrote: »

It's basic supply and demand -

So were is the surplus beef being dumped, as I asked before?

Seems to me that factories are screaming about orders that have to be filled etc etc.

The demand is there, but the middlemen(which to me seems like a cartel in Ireland) are trying to set the price. And it is below what it costs to produce. That is always going to bring protest if government is seen to be facilitating/not taking action.

FrancieBrady

Panch18 wrote: »

Ah yes

You seem to be forgetting the tax exemption that artists get whereby their first 50k is tax free

Now there's a subsidy for you!!

It was a pretty woeful analogy really. You have the Arts Council, local arts offices and Aosdanna all pumping subsidy in.

weldoninhio

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It was a pretty woeful analogy really. You have the Arts Council, local arts offices and Aosdanna all pumping subsidy in.

So I claim to be an artist and *poof* all of these will subsidise me??

sbsquarepants

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So were is the surplus beef being dumped, as I asked before?

It's being sold to England and France mostly.

Now remind me, what was the purpose of subsidising farmers again? To secure our food supply, or to bump up profits for export companies?

Are you seriously going to argue that it's in my best interest that we provide cheap meat to England and therefore i need to be pay more to subsidise it?

FrancieBrady

sbsquarepants wrote: »

It's being sold to England and France mostly.

Now remind me, what was the purpose of subsidising farmers again? To secure our food supply, or to bump up profits for export companies?

Are you seriously going to argue that it's in my best interest that we provide cheap meat to England and therefore i need to be pay more to subsidise it?

Go to your local library, it is resourced and subsidised to provide you with a wealth of info and literature. Find a book on how the EU works and read it?

Then you may be fit to discuss this topic. You are just ranting and trying not too well to disguise an agenda here.