The difference between leftists and the truth.

Geuze

realitykeeper wrote: »

And yet the national debt is approaching the quarter trillion mark at breakneck speed: https://commodity.com/debt-clock/ireland/

The national debt, relative to various measures of income, is falling.

The absolute gross debt is 211.9bn, which is high, yes.

It is not rising "at breakneck speed".

blanch152

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So just to clarify, the poorest people are the ones with too much money. Is that the gist? If the poor people would settle for less money, then the rich people would be happier.

Presumably, the rich people would be so happy, they’d reduce the price of rent so the poor people could afford to rent on their new reduced pay. And the banks would tell the landlords not to worry about paying back the mortgage because we’re all pulling together now.

Lol. OP, how about you go first and offer to sell your labour for a fraction of your current pay. Be sure to come back and tell us how much happier you are afterwards, otherwise get up the yard with your nonsense.

I don’t think that’s the argument.

The problem with society is that there are two groups who put in little or no effort - welfare dependents at the bottom and wealth inheritors at the top - and they get rewarded, while the rest of us work away to support and service them.

El_Duderino 09

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Im self employed and decide my worth, have no job security or benefits as such, im already living this side of the fence

Ah. So how much should you reduce your self value as part of this arrangement?

Geuze

realitykeeper wrote: »

Why should the staff get the benefits. If an employer has to buy a big machine to replace twenty workers when the new minimum wage renders them unprofitable,

The min wage is a long way down the list when it comes to reasons for lack of profits.

We have a relatively high min wage in Ireland, and many businesses are massively profitable.

30% net profit margins are common, even with this relatively high min wage.

If businesses are failing, it is rarely due to the min wage.

Geuze

In 2018 in Ireland total GDP income was 324bn.

Of that, profit was 208bn.

Profits are 64% of all incomes.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-isanff/isanff2018/


That seems like enough profit.

It seems to me that labour has, and is, losing the battle against capital.

joseywhales

We should all band together to not be leftists?

I'm very confused

James Brown

realitykeeper wrote: »

In truth, it is better that we citizen`s all pull together for the common good.

One way to do this is to sell our labour cheap.

As they say, if you work for free you'll always have a job.

realitykeeper wrote: »

The concept of a minimum wage flies in the face of this logic, after all, not every enterprise is profitable and thereby sustainable with our existing minimum wage and so in principle, it should not exist.

Or...if a company/business can't afford to pay staff what's deemed the minimum a person can survive on, their business should go without staff or close. Likely they'll go begging to the state for a tax payer funded grant or subsidy.
How many multi-billion earning companies use minimum wage workers? A lot. That's how they make the billions.

realitykeeper wrote: »

By capitulating to the demands of the low paid, all higher paid workers demand more and we end up borrowing much of this money from abroad through the issue of bonds to pay for our high pay. Granted interest on these bonds are low but even if Irish bonds yielded negative interest, the small profit we make is not enough because we spend the principle of the bond too without the means to pay it back should the economy go south.

If your business can't afford to operate close it and go out and get a job, hopefully with someone successful who appreciates their wokers

realitykeeper wrote: »

The point here is that by demanding more than we are worth, we are all pulling against each other instead of pulling together.

Employees aren't worth being able to pay rent? Do you like the U.S. Walmart model were the employees need to be subsidised by welfare? Walmart makes a profit and the tax payer funds their staff, because Walmart isn't paying them enough to get by.

realitykeeper wrote: »

Union members are also part of this selfish movement, because they are only out for themselves as opposed to society at large.

Unions are a private members only organisation. They have little interest in looking after anyone but their members. That's their whole point. And because of the views above it shows workers need unions.

realitykeeper wrote: »

That as I say is truth. The left is different to the truth. Leftists favour the trade union movement so they are opposed to the truth that working for the common good is a desirable outcome. They also favour a minimum wage which is also anti truth as the truth is that we should be trying to do as much as we can for a little as possible for each other.

This is Pee Wee Fun House crazy now.
What on earth has 'truth' got to do with it? People are lying about wanting a decent wage? If people aren't paid enough the state needs to step in and spend tax payer money, so if you want logic, people who work shouldn't need state aid to function so companies can make more profits.

realitykeeper wrote: »

Thinking about it logically, if nothing gets done, that is bad. By contrast, if lots gets done, that is good. To gets lots done, lots of work must be carried out. For lots of work to be carried out, work must be cheap. After all, if something is cheap, it is likely to be produced and consumed more than something that is expensive.

Why, what's the goal? Society must sacrifice quality of life so companies can flourish? And who will buy their goods if people aren't getting paid enough to pay rent?

realitykeeper wrote: »

For example, liter for liter, shops in this country sell a lot more cheap wine than expensive wine. High priced labour means nothing gets done. Is that not the truth?

It's bonkers. I enjoyed the magical journey. Peace out.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

its also an oxymoron that most on the left admire unions for making people have to work less hours, yet at the same time they demand more work be done to provide for all the services.
....

That's simplistic and false. You could just as easily say the right want everyone to work all hours for as little as possible and no time off.

James Brown

Eric Cartman wrote: »

and who invested the money for these machines and owns the equity in the company, of which part is those machines as assets....

The tax payer or the banks, it's not some lad saved money up in his sock drawer working for less than minimum wage on a zero hour week any way.

mariaalice

realitykeeper wrote: »

In truth, it is better that we citizen`s all pull together for the common good.

One way to do this is to sell our labour cheap.

The concept of a minimum wage flies in the face of this logic, after all, not every enterprise is profitable and thereby sustainable with our existing minimum wage and so in principle, it should not exist.

By capitulating to the demands of the low paid, all higher paid workers demand more and we end up borrowing much of this money from abroad through the issue of bonds to pay for our high pay. Granted interest on these bonds are low but even if Irish bonds yielded negative interest, the small profit we make is not enough because we spend the principle of the bond too without the means to pay it back should the economy go south.

The point here is that by demanding more than we are worth, we are all pulling against each other instead of pulling together.

Union members are also part of this selfish movement, because they are only out for themselves as opposed to society at large.

That as I say is truth. The left is different to the truth. Leftists favour the trade union movement so they are opposed to the truth that working for the common good is a desirable outcome. They also favour a minimum wage which is also anti truth as the truth is that we should be trying to do as much as we can for a little as possible for each other.

Thinking about it logically, if nothing gets done, that is bad. By contrast, if lots gets done, that is good. To gets lots done, lots of work must be carried out. For lots of work to be carried out, work must be cheap. After all, if something is cheap, it is likely to be produced and consumed more than something that is expensive.

For example, liter for liter, shops in this country sell a lot more cheap wine than expensive wine. High priced labour means nothing gets done. Is that not the truth?

I am just wondering have you stated the march backward by going to who even employes you and asking them to pay you what they think you are worth or more likely get away with paying you?

I'm sure the civil engineering technician or what even who workes beside you would be delighted that you have reset the salaries back to 20k instead of 40k as you are doing it for the good of everybody.

Geuze

realitykeeper wrote: »

Thinking about it logically, if nothing gets done, that is bad. By contrast, if lots gets done, that is good. To gets lots done, lots of work must be carried out. For lots of work to be carried out, work must be cheap. After all, if something is cheap, it is likely to be produced and consumed more than something that is expensive.

Switz and DK are high wage, high cost societies.

According to you, little work must get done there.

In reality, both employment and income are high there.

realitykeeper

Geuze wrote: »

The national debt, relative to various measures of income, is falling.

Are you referring to the debt to GDP ratio? If so, (and ignoring the fact that foreign multinationals contribute a great deal directly and indirectly to our GDP), incomes tend to collapse in recessionary times and interest demanded for new debt increases. In other words, Ireland will neither be able to borrow or pay it`s debts.

Wanderer78

realitykeeper wrote:

Are you referring to the debt to GDP ratio? If so, (and ignoring the fact that foreign multinationals contribute a great deal directly and indirectly to our GDP), incomes tend to collapse in recessionary times and interest demanded for new debt increases. In other words, Ireland will neither be able to borrow or pay it`s debts.

And it's also important to realise that the actual cause of the previous crash was the rapid rise in private debt, and had little or nothing to do with our public debt

realitykeeper

Geuze wrote: »

The min wage is a long way down the list when it comes to reasons for lack of profits.

We have a relatively high min wage in Ireland, and many businesses are massively profitable....

If employees want profits, let them start their own business. Employees should focus on their duty to their employer and let business to the boss. If they don`t like that, other options must be considered, including closure, relocating to the far east and automation.

realitykeeper

Matt Barrett wrote: »

As they say, if you work for free you'll always have a job.

Agreed. Nobody need ever be idle. Simply work. Find something productive to do and do it. If someone pays you, all the better.

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Or...if a company/business can't afford to pay staff what's deemed the minimum a person can survive on, their business should go without staff or close. Likely they'll go begging to the state for a tax payer funded grant or subsidy.
How many multi-billion earning companies use minimum wage workers? A lot. That's how they make the billions.

As the minimum wage rises, a greater proportion of workers will find themselves on the minimum wage. If workers want profits, let them start their own business. This covetous greed and envy that some workers toward their employer is unbecoming.

Matt Barrett wrote: »

If your business can't afford to operate close it and go out and get a job, hopefully with someone successful who appreciates their wokers

Yes a lot of businesses have closed and gone to China.

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Employees aren't worth being able to pay rent? Do you like the U.S. Walmart model were the employees need to be subsidised by welfare? Walmart makes a profit and the tax payer funds their staff, because Walmart isn't paying them enough to get by.

The state taxes Walmart so Walmart pays part of the subsidy. The remaining part would be unnecessary if the US government had not bailed out the banks because property prices would have kept falling until such time as people could afford them.

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Unions are a private members only organisation. They have little interest in looking after anyone but their members. That's their whole point. And because of the views above it shows workers need unions.

The workers are being selfish by being in unions. They are only out for themselves as you say. The views I expressed pertain to everyone pulling together for the common good so the selfish in unions are guilty of shameful behaviour.

Matt Barrett wrote: »

This is Pee Wee Fun House crazy now.
What on earth has 'truth' got to do with it? People are lying about wanting a decent wage? If people aren't paid enough the state needs to step in and spend tax payer money, so if you want logic, people who work shouldn't need state aid to function so companies can make more profits.

The state gets money from the taxpayer so the state gives nothing, it only takes. The state doing anything is a bad idea because when they do stuff, much is lost to inefficiency and corruption.

What you are saying is indeed Pee Wee Fun House crazy. When people get paid and they spend their money, they are all competing for the same resources so if they all get paid a bigger figure, they all spend more for the same resources. That is just as ridiculous as the naughties when everyone borrowed more and more for the same three bed semis and much of that money came from German savers so we were getting bigger debts as individuals and as a nation when the houses would have been exactly the same size if everyone was paid less and less, and we would have had less debt.

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Why, what's the goal? Society must sacrifice quality of life so companies can flourish? And who will buy their goods if people aren't getting paid enough to pay rent?

Increasing the minimum wage does nothing to increase the quality of life, if it did there would be no need to continue increasing the minimum wage. Rent is high because the government interfered in the housing market during and after they bailed out the banks. Consequently, people could have had the quality of life they wanted, including purchasing power for products if the government had not butted in. Also, companies can always export just like the companies that used to be here are exporting from China to us.

realitykeeper

mariaalice wrote: »

I am just wondering have you stated the march backward by going to who even employes you and asking them to pay you what they think you are worth or more likely get away with paying you?

I'm sure the civil engineering technician or what even who workes beside you would be delighted that you have reset the salaries back to 20k instead of 40k as you are doing it for the good of everybody.

I am not a martyr. The benefits to society only accrue if everyone pulls together.

fly_agaric

realitykeeper wrote:

For lots of work to be carried out, work must be cheap. After all, if something is cheap, it is likely to be produced and consumed more than something that is expensive.

Endentured labourers, slaves, prisoners and the like...very cheap.
Hard work by serfs toiling away the day for a pittance has been the basis of the most successful, admired and prosperous states in history. Work makes free and all that. We are so lucky to have big brained right-wing cranks intellectuals on current affairs forum pointing the way foward into the future for Ireland.

realitykeeper wrote: »

I am not a martyr. The benefits to society only accrue if everyone pulls together.

realitykeeper

Geuze wrote: »

Switz and DK are high wage, high cost societies.

According to you, little work must get done there.

In reality, both employment and income are high there.

Those countries have more indigenous industry and less debt per head of population.

realitykeeper

Wanderer78 wrote: »

And it's also important to realise that the actual cause of the previous crash was the rapid rise in private debt, and had little or nothing to do with our public debt

That debt is this debt. In other words, the government stupidly took on the private debt so that debt is still to be paid off, even by those citizens who never borrowed a cent in their lives.

realitykeeper

fly_agaric wrote: »

Endentured labourers, slaves, prisoners and the like...very cheap.
Hard work by serfs toiling away the day for a pittance has been the basis of the most successful, admired and prosperous states in history.

You mean like the thirty million or so who were sent to the gulags of the USSR? Oh wait, that ended in failure. I think people should be paid - the market rate.

fly_agaric

realitykeeper wrote: »

You mean like the thirty million or so who were sent to the gulags of the USSR? Oh wait, that ended in failure. I think people should be paid - the market rate.

But they were working for a low low market rate and for the greater good, surely you could overlook the political and economic system they lived under and approve of the principle here?
The present day US has a political and economic system much more to your liking. Its prisoners are quite productive I believe, work for the public good and have a very low market rate. You were singing the praises of China as an outsourcing location earlier too; another country with a large labour force on the ultimate minimum wage.

storker

realitykeeper wrote: »

Agreed. Nobody need ever be idle. Simply work. Find something productive to do and do it. If someone pays you, all the better.

Of course, because a place to live, food, heat, utilities and, some quality of life - are all just frills.

Sorry but if this't trolling, it's doing a very good impersonation of it. Definitely not a conversation worth continuing with.

storker

realitykeeper wrote: »

I am not a martyr. The benefits to society only accrue if everyone pulls together.

So let's start with those can most comfortably start the ball rolling.

El_Duderino 09

Still waiting to know how much the Cartman and realitykeeper are going to devalue their own work.

If that isn't answered then I think the whole thing can be written off as the OP saying "I'd be better off if everyone else accepted lower pay"

And in other news, the Pope is Catholic and makes the world a safer place for paedophiles in the Catholic hierarchy.

realitykeeper

fly_agaric wrote: »

But they were working for a low low market rate and for the greater good, surely you could overlook the political and economic system they lived under and approve of the principle here?

They were prisoners who were forced to work and they were not working for the market rate. Working for the market rate means you can take the next best offer if you choose. Nobody got to leave the gulag until the authorities allowed them (assuming they didn`t die first). Granted the entire USSR was a giant prison but the gulags were a sub system for criminals or those who wanted to escape Communism.

realitykeeper

storker wrote: »

Of course, because a place to live, food, heat, utilities and, some quality of life - are all just frills.

Sorry but if this't trolling, it's doing a very good impersonation of it. Definitely not a conversation worth continuing with.

Doing nothing solves nothing and demanding others to look after you is brat like behaviour. People should make themselves useful.

realitykeeper

storker wrote: »

So let's start with those can most comfortably start the ball rolling.

Sure thing but within 24 hours, of starting with the richest, the low paid and dole recipients could all be included. You see, efficiency must be applied to those poor who are lazy.

El_Duderino 09

realitykeeper wrote: »

Sure thing but within 24 hours, of starting with the richest, the low paid and dole recipients could all be included. You see, efficiency must be applied to those poor who are lazy.

Go on ahead so. Let us know by how much you've devalued your work and let us know how it's going.

realitykeeper wrote: »

Doing nothing solves nothing and demanding others to look after you is brat like behaviour. People should make themselves useful.

That's right. Now, back to demanding other people look after you by devaluing their labour.

osarusan

Perhaps never in the field of boards conflict, has some much been spewed towards so many, by so few.

Wanderer78

realitykeeper wrote: »

Sure thing but within 24 hours, of starting with the richest, the low paid and dole recipients could all be included. You see, efficiency must be applied to those poor who are lazy.

so poverty is caused my laziness?

CalamariFritti

Massive amounts of wealth and money are being amassed into ivory towers and money pyramids for no other reasons because they can. They dont even know what to do with the money anymore. Thats why anything and everything is gobbled up driving everyone else into even bigger dependency.

Yes we need entrepreneurs and investment but its long gone past that. Nobody buys that trickle down lie anymore. Well, not nobody obviously..

Huge amounts of normal people (not billionaires) actually buy into those lies and will fight tooth and nail to defend it as 'the only way'. Talking about being brainwashed....