Parents found guilty of mutilating one year daughters genitals

Millionaire only not

Mezzotint wrote: »

Well, they're values that are worth protecting and standing by here. If others want to adopt them and adapt them, that's up to them. However, those ideas spread in Europe as ideas, I don't think one ethnic identity should hold onto them, as they've been adapted around the world much as they were in Europe. Ideas in humanity spread and adapt generally - it's the same with all sorts of systems, philosophies, religions, music, food, languages etc etc. I wouldn't really bolt the concept of democracy and secularism as something that exclusively belongs in Europe. In fact, much of Europe took a very long time to adopt some of those ideas, particularly on the democracy side of things - we've had bouts of extreme fascism and dictatorship well into recent years on this continent too.

However, to get back to the topic of the thread, it's those values that define this society and I think those are also the values that allow it to function as multicultural and multi-religious. If we allow religious law or traditional custom to trump secular law, we know fine and well what the consequences are in our own recent cultural past, so I think this judgement is extremely important to set down a marker of where the state stands on protecting individual rights and standards of human rights and showing that it includes the rights of children, who are not just someone's chattel and have their own individual rights beyond those of their parents.

Could u say that again I didn’t catch it the first time !

Wibbs

Mezzotint wrote: »

I wouldn't really bolt the concept of democracy and secularism as something that exclusively belongs in Europe.

While it mos certainly doesn't just belong in Europe, they are almost exclusively European concepts and going way back too, before the enlightenment, if only as ideas. The vast majority of nascent democracies and democratic philosophies were European. Beyond that continent you have to dig very deep and then tend to only find small communities practising it.

1641

Deleted User wrote: »

Regarding the reasons it is currently done, it is to prevent boys enjoying mastrubation. Puritanical reason why it's so common in USA, and in the religuous cults I would imagine it's also the original reason

I think the notion that it might prevent boys enjoying sex was a myth! And it has been dated to before the monothestic religions and indeed to areas of the world where these religions didn't reach, eg, quite a few native american societies and aboriginal Australia.

Mezzotint

Deleted User wrote: »

Regarding the reasons it is currently done, it is to prevent boys enjoying mastrubation. Puritanical reason why it's so common in USA, and in the religuous cults I would imagine it's also the original reason

It seems that was the rather twisted logic for it, but then it became culturally embedded and started to become a solution in search of a problem in the US. It's definitely not as damaging as FGM, and can even be a medical treatment for certain physical problems, but it would be a bit like ritualising tonsillectomy.

The situation in the US vs Ireland and Europe on this is hugely different. I don't think routine male circumcision for non-medical reasons is something that's a live issue in Ireland, beyond the two religious communities that practice it. It's a hugely common thing in the US though and there's very little logic behind it or medical justification.

However, in terms of scale of damage FGM is often more equivalent to having the head of your penis removed entirely, which is a whole other level of damage and also from what I have read, women are often left in long term pain and unable to even give birth easily due to the damage that was inflicted on their reproductive organs.

My view of it is both FGM and routine male circumcision are wrong and contrary to human rights, but FGM's just off the scale in terms of the damage inflicted and I would be concerned that even the use of 'circumcision' as term to describe FGM tends to minimise how seriously damaging it is by directly equating it to the US view of their routine male practice.

Wibbs

maebee wrote: »

The father of that baby should be laid on a table and have his bits mutilated.

His almost certainly have been already. And the mother? This is more culturally enforced by the women in such societies.

Spanish Eyes

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Circumcision happens every day all over the world, with regard to males but come on.... you are out of your tree there.

The females are mutilated and controlled.

You made it sound like a woman can't enjoy sex after FGM. You asked for a male equivalent and I said the removal of the two things that make men enjoy sex.

Don't know how that makes me out of my tree.

Hellrazer

Kannon Yellow Bullfrog wrote: »

In 2018, some 'head the ball' said it should be 'made legal' in Ireland.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/female-circumcision-should-be-allowed-by-law-member-of-irelands-islamic-cultural-centre-36585441.html

I think he apologised for that statement but Ali Selim also said he`d like to see sharia law in Ireland some day.

Anyone that mutilates a child (male or female) should be given a very harsh sentence but knowing the justice system in this country they`ll get a slap on the wrist and be handed the kids back.

Wibbs

1641 wrote: »

I think the notion that it might prevent boys enjoying sex was a myth!

Sure, but a strong and widespread enough one. FGM is steeped in mythology too. They're two branches of the same tree.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

You asked for a male equivalent and I said the removal of the two things that make men enjoy sex.

Don't know how that makes me out of my tree.

Well you must have an interesting enough sex life if your prostate is getting the oul enjoyment on the regular. It would be kinda nice if folks had at least a passing knowledge of basic anatomy before wading in.

Wibbs

Then again Ads, pegging is apparently a thing so...

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

Then again Ads, pegging is apparently a thing so...

The more you know.

Spanish Eyes

Deleted User wrote: »

You made it sound like a woman can't enjoy sex after FGM. You asked for a male equivalent and I said the removal of the two things that make men enjoy sex.

Don't know how that makes me out of my tree.

Disgusting comment regarding women.

But what to expect from many, but not all thankfully. Go to bed.

Mulberrytree

Calhoun wrote: »

Well people do stereotype the Irish allot we get grouped up, similar with other areas of the world like being male or even female. People often are take the lazy way out and group things up.

I know its not right as I normally really dislike it myself.

However, in this case I think its a lesser evil in the context of the topic at hand. It would actually be really great to see a post talking about Africa and the different countries and culture and educating us but as the poster came back pointed my response was to respond in kind.

My original point was more from the Irish memory of current affairs we have had a few high profile cases on the topic, not all related to the act itself but even people using it as a reason not to have a deportation order.

The poster - me - is neither an ambassador nor representative of the continent, black people, or various cultures. And I shouldn't be.

That was my point! I can speak about my own country, or my tribe (arguably a country on its own), the cultures I grew up in. My dealings with various practices via work etc

But if I can't educate people on places that are 7 hours flight away from home nation because I know as much as Google does, maybe that will explain why lumping every criminal, every negative practice, actually even positive ones as "African' is wrong.

But then if you saw what I wrote as an attack, which it so very obviously wasn't, well...

Spanish Eyes

Mulberrytree wrote: »

The poster - me - is neither an ambassador nor representative of the continent, black people, or various cultures. And I shouldn't be.

That was my point! I can speak about my own country, or my tribe (arguably a country on its own), the cultures I grew up in. My dealings with various practices via work etc

But if I can't educate people on places that are 7 hours flight away from home nation because I know as much as Google does, maybe that will explain why lumping every criminal, every negative practice, actually even positive ones as "African' is wrong.

But then if you saw what I wrote as an attack, which it so very obviously wasn't, well...

Eh, just repeat that again and again and again and in a high voice. NO Worries love. whatever.

Mulberrytree

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You made it sound like a woman can't enjoy sex after FGM. You asked for a male equivalent and I said the removal of the two things that make men enjoy sex.

Don't know how that makes me out of my tree.

They can't enjoy it. For many it's painful and damaging. Some having to be repaired if you will after sexual activity.

It's not a good thing in any way and even though I also don't support MGM, fgm is a much more damaging thing. For some women it almost cripples them, especially the ones who have had a complete cutting, because monthly menses when there's no proper opening can lead to serious issues. Imagine giving birth in such circumstances. I won't describe here but it's very bad for them

Calhoun

Mulberrytree wrote: »

The poster - me - is neither an ambassador nor representative of the continent, black people, or various cultures. And I shouldn't be.

That was my point! I can speak about my own country, or my tribe (arguably a country on its own), the cultures I grew up in. My dealings with various practices via work etc

But if I can't educate people on places that are 7 hours flight away from home nation because I know as much as Google does, maybe that will explain why lumping every criminal, every negative practice, actually even positive ones as "African' is wrong.

But then if you saw what I wrote as an attack, which it so very obviously wasn't, well...

I agree with your point on stereotyping and grouping as i said Irish people get stereotyped allot also, as do many other groups. My point was it just looked initially like this was more important than FGM, which i can see is not the case.

It is hard to read tone correctly from a post, so i got where you were coming from wrong that was my mistake so my apologies. Just to clarify the reason i thought you were attacking was the comment on my posting history.

Mezzotint

Mulberrytree wrote: »

The poster - me - is neither an ambassador nor representative of the continent, black people, or various cultures. And I shouldn't be.

That was my point! I can speak about my own country, or my tribe (arguably a country on its own), the cultures I grew up in. My dealings with various practices via work etc

But if I can't educate people on places that are 7 hours flight away from home nation because I know as much as Google does, maybe that will explain why lumping every criminal, every negative practice, actually even positive ones as "African' is wrong.

But then if you saw what I wrote as an attack, which it so very obviously wasn't, well...

I agree. I think though it's something that you see everywhere. Africa tends get seen as one homogenous place, when it's actually a huge continent, roughly three times bigger than Europe, has 54 countries, something like 2000 languages and a vast array of cultures, ethnicities, religious beliefs and so on. It's perspective - the further away and less familiar somewhere is, the more homogenous the imagined view tends to get.

Africans really need to push the ownership of that vile practice onto those tribes, communities and cultures that actually practice it. Even saying "it's an African practice" almost seems like it even risks normalising it by associating it with an entire continent and allowing those who practice it to somehow almost attempt to appropriate Africa's good name, but also it turns it into a race or other identity issue, which tends to close down critique and that is hugely dangerous. It's a practice that needs to be stamped out by everyone. It's a human rights issue.

Mulberrytree

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Eh, just repeat that again and again and again and in a high voice. NO Worries love. whatever.

Unwarranted rudeness. With a condescending "love" thrown in.

Spanish Eyes

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Disgusting comment regarding women.

But what to expect from many, but not all thankfully. Go to bed.

What on Earth are you talking about? Your posts are all over the shop today. Earlier, you called another poster a misogynist whilst agreeing with him.

joseywhales

Male circumcision should also be outlawed! Why are we performing any medical procedure that has no therapeutic benefits?

I'm curious if a doctor can even perform one after taking the oath to do no harm.

dartboardio

Absolutely disgusting inhumane cultural practice to have. Should have been done away with long long long ago.

I read a book by a Somalian lady 'Waris Dirie' where FGM happened to her, at six or seven years old, in a field somewhere, there was an old local gypsy woman who used to come around and do it to the young girls, she would cut off their clitoris and sew their vaginas shut, so they couldn't have sex, until of course, they were married, and that had to be ripped open.

And she described how this was done with an old rusty blade in a field. not even in a proper environment where you might see other circumcisions.

Absolutely disgusting.

Mezzotint

It has been banned by at least 26 Africans countries (at least one even going as far as life imprisonment for it) and there is huge pressure coming on in the regions where this is an issue. I strongly resent the throwing around of the racism accusations. You will always get racists jumping into discussions like this and using the to stereotype and spread toxic stuff, but that is not what any of the sensible posters on this thread have been doing.

I can't think of any continent or culture that is entirely blemish free in terms of its human rights record over the last 100 years. I mean Europe had utterly disgraceful recent history - fascism, genocides, colonialism, war crimes left right and centre. The US has had huge issues around racism, war crimes etc etc, Asia has had issues around all sorts of issues. I'm not trying to be exhaustive here, I'm just saying that they all are open to robust critique. I also agree that male circumcision needs robust critique and the cultural issues around that (both religious and secular) need to be challenged too. It's not on the same scale of harm (at least in most cases anyway) as FGM, but it's still hugely problematic from an individual's rights point of view.

I have gone out of my way to ensure I did not portray FGM in terms of race and to stick to the practice and the underlying set of beliefs that are keeping it going.

I firmly believe in universal human rights and I don't think those can be side stepped by religious beliefs, political beliefs, race or anything else. You don't chose where you're born and you don't chose your parents. However, in a humanity that is trying to progress, you do deserve to have the right to protection by your fellow humans and to have abhorrent practices called out.

If you want to shelter misogyny or human rights violations behind accusations of racism, I'd say you'd really want to go have a long hard think about what you're doing and why.

One eyed Jack

The Enforcers wrote: »

Lot of racism in this thread...think some of the posters need to take a long hard look at themselves in the mirror.

FYI just because YOU don't understand a cultural practice doesn't mean it's wrong.

It’s precisely because I do understand the cultural practice and the reasons and driving forces behind why it is performed, that I’m not going to argue with you about the rights or wrongs of it.

It’s an abhorrent practice in my opinion, not limited whatsoever to any geographic location when parents all across Europe are travelling with their children to other European countries to have the practice carried out on their children in secret. They’re aware it’s unlawful in most of Europe, and they’re also aware of how to avoid detection. It’s not unlike the idea of someone being told they cannot do something which for them is a fundamental part of who they are - they’re going to find a way to do it no matter how risky it is. Simply because for them the risks of not doing it means far greater negative consequences for their children, as far as they’re concerned.

I’m honestly very slow to criticise people who do it because it’s completely set in their minds as a perfectly rational course of action, they feel compelled to do it because they fear the consequences of not doing it far greater than they fear the consequences if they are caught and punished for doing it.

I’m also slow to criticise the practice because, and I don’t mean this in any kind of moral relativism kind of way but rather the hypocrisy of our own culture in the West where infants are mutilated in order to have them conform to our cultural norms, and this is a practice which is carried out with some fairly shady justifications about medical reasons. There is also a growing culture in the West which exists which celebrates the mutilation of children and promotes the idea that children can change their sex, and anyone who disagrees with them are backwards, and so on. Very same criticisms as are levelled at other cultures for things which we find abhorrent, and accept and celebrate in our own culture.

There’s a group mentality aspect that is prevalent in many of these practices that aren’t based upon religion or geography or any of the rest of it, but are rather based upon “eat da poo poo” levels of “scientific” rationale. In case it’s not obvious and I have to spell it out - there’s nothing scientific about them, but rather it’s simply the case that people will rationalise abhorrent acts in a way that makes them seem like a rational course of action, and therefore their actions are justified.

c.p.w.g.w

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Needs to be extremely illegal for both males and females. Medical reasons only.

Practitioners should get whatever they'd get for two doing it to an adult against their will.

Be careful your'll be called anti-Semitic

Mezzotint

Calhoun wrote: »

Come on dude the poster is definitely a troll trying to bait people into arguments over it.

I don't know sometimes. There are some utterly bizarre views held by some people and they aren't necessarily just trolling. If you look at the kinds of things you see in some of the bubbles around the extreme right wing, islamic extremists, conspiracy theorists, Incels, etc etc etc you really start to wonder about who and what you are talking to. I've even been confronted with some of this stuff in non-internet forums i.e. weird arguments in bars and so on.

People can be very strange and I am increasingly just taking extreme posts at face value, reporting nasty stuff and trying to counter the points. If you leave it unchallenged and assume it's just trolling, we end up bubbles of unchallenged extremism and next thing you know you've a conspiracy theorist sitting in the Oval Office with the nuclear button in his hand.

But as for FGM, and many other abhorrent things, they'll have their die hard defenders who'll tie logic in knots and use whataboutery to make their point.

All I know is there are times I am left wondering about humanity. We'll probably just wipe ourselves out in some bizarre combination of sheer stupidity, in-fighting and self destructive behaviours.

Calhoun

Mezzotint wrote: »

I don't know sometimes. There are some utterly bizarre views held by some people and they aren't necessarily just trolling. If you look at the kinds of things you see in some of the bubbles around the extreme right wing, islamic extremists, conspiracy theorists, Incels, etc etc etc you really start to wonder about who and what you are talking to. I've even been confronted with some of this stuff in non-internet forums i.e. weird arguments in bars and so on.

People can be very strange and I am increasingly just taking extreme posts at face value, reporting nasty stuff and trying to counter the points. If you leave it unchallenged and assume it's just trolling, we end up bubbles of unchallenged extremism and next thing you know you've a conspiracy theorist sitting in the Oval Office with the nuclear button in his hand.

I get that, i just wrote them off as someone on the extreme right trying to get a false flag argument going and to stoke the hate against the continent of Africa/Muslim people.

I also get why you challenge them and you did it in the right way, im glad nobody bit in the way that they wanted.

Rubberchikken

anyone who defends a parent mutilating their daughter should read interviews with women who were subjected to this appalling abuse.

culture my ar@e.

work

Long sentence and deportation, remove their children for life. Nothing less!
On another note I believe any genital mutilation is disgusting and it really annoys me my folks had me circumcised, I think because my dad was american, I believe more common.
Let's get serious on this I don't give a flying Fxck about you culture or religeon, do this and go to prison. ALL RELIGEONS even oldest ones!
Love your kids don't mutilate them the least a state can do is keep kids safe.

nozzferrahhtoo

strandroad wrote: »

I've never heard of atheists guilty of it?

I too have never personally met atheists guilty of it, but I have had many atheists defend it. Invariably because they have been deluded by very bad science citations.... that they likely read the title of and not the content.... that it is a medically beneficial and advised practice.

joseywhales wrote: »

I'm curious if a doctor can even perform one after taking the oath to do no harm.

I am not sure which oath you specifically refer to, but you might find that they in fact do not take the one you mean at all.

nozzferrahhtoo

wellwhynot wrote: »

The poor child was not sedated. They would have had to hold her down. How could a parent do that to their child who they are supposed to protect?

It is amazing what cultural conditioning, or religious belief, can do isn't it? For example in some areas of the US they have parents who watch their child die from otherwise easily treatable or manageable conditions, solely because they believe medical intervention is an affront to their god.

The horrific thing is, the really insidious thing, is that if you believed the things they believe.... you would likely do the same thing to your child. An awful thought right?

But think about it. If you deeply love your child and GENUINELY believed a medical Intervention would alleviate the suffering of your child here and now, but torment their ETERNAL soul for all time.... would you not watch your child die painfully too? I know I probably would, no matter how difficult it was for me in the moment.

Beliefs matters. Especially unsubstantiated insidious superstitious nonsense like gods.