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Sunday competition booking system
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I personally would like to see the tee times open up in the brs. Sure it means you my not be able to play with your mates, but its a competition a the end of the day and if your relying in your mates to make a ruling you might be misguided.
Tee times are not that easy to come by, unless you want to play afternnoon golf especially for big events captains prize etc.
I had no idea that this seems to be the only club in the country with that system.0 -
Montgolfier wrote: »I personally would like to see the tee times open up in the brs. Sure it means you my not be able to play with your mates, but its a competition a the end of the day and if your relying in your mates to make a ruling you might be misguided.
Tee times are not that easy to come by, unless you want to play afternnoon golf especially for big events captains prize etc.
I had no idea that this seems to be the only club in the country with that system.
Personally I would benefit too from it opening up completely. But the draw seems quite popular. I dont think a motion for abandoning it would get much support. Maybe it would, I dont know, just doesn't feel that way. For many of the playing members it seems to be a fixture.
From experience I can if you're in any way on the ball with BRS you will pick up a tee time that suits you in the week before the comp. Captains Day etc doesnt count. You could go to the draw for that and still end up playing at 1 o clock. They're exceptions.0 -
CalamariFritti wrote: »Ok, trolling was maybe a bit on the strong side, apologies.
My point is that its easily the best course between Mt Juliet on the one side and Fota on the other. If you live close by by why would you be deterred by what can only be called an inconvenience to the extent that you'd rather add one hour of driving. Not saying you can't its anyone's decision after all. But if I weighed up driving to the Castle (20-25 minutes plus ferry) which is lovely no doubt or to Ferrybank or Faithlegg (35 - 40 minutes) over putting up with the draw I wouldn't have to think for minute.
I think there is picture being painted here of some old codgers making rules for themselves and its not true. Its a members owned club we make the rules ourselves and the draw has not been under any internal criticism as far as I know. Loads of people seem to go to it in fact.
Even most guys like me who dont benefit from it dont really object to it. Its easy to work your way around it.
You're not deterred by it because you are a member in the club. As someone new to the area, I, like the OP am deterred by it. Even a former members agrees that it is a deterrent.
Faithlegg is 22 mins, Williamstown is 13 mins and Waterford Castle is approx 30 mins ferry depending. That amount of time is a far smaller deterrent than giving up my Saturday evening to wait around for a draw which I have a lower probability of "winning" given a line is won by members so their friends can play with them, imo of course.
You can square it however you like but it's not a remotely enticing facet of the club.
FWIW, on the rankings, whether one agrees with them or not, they are relatively objective and decided upon by those with experience.
It's quite clear that Tramore is more closely aligned with the aforementioned clubs than Fota or Mt Juilet. It's a lovely course and is probably the best in the area tbf but let's group it accordingly, Mt Juilet and Fota are in a different class.0 -
Millie Rich Milkshake wrote: »You're not deterred by it because you are a member in the club. As someone new to the area, I, like the OP am deterred by it. Even a former members agrees that it is a deterrent.
Faithlegg is 22 mins, Williamstown is 13 mins and Waterford Castle is approx 30 mins ferry depending. That amount of time is a far smaller deterrent than giving up my Saturday evening to wait around for a draw which I have a lower probability of "winning" given a line is won by members so their friends can play with them, imo of course.
You can square it however you like but it's not a remotely enticing facet of the club.
FWIW, on the rankings, whether one agrees with them or not, they are relatively objective and decided upon by those with experience.
It's quite clear that Tramore is more closely aligned with the aforementioned clubs than Fota or Mt Juilet. It's a lovely course and is probably the best in the area tbf but let's group it accordingly, Mt Juilet and Fota are in a different class.
I am a member but I dont like going to the draw myself and I dont go. For the same reasons mentioned here. It doesnt suit me timing wise. So in that way its as much a deterrent to me as it is to an outsider. And me personally I dont find it much of a deterrent because I know I can work around it with BRS. And thats the advice I'm offering to an outsider. 'Dont be put off by that, you'll be fine.'
Ye I wasnt grouping it with those two, that would be silly. Not in the same league. It was meant geographically. Between those two on either side of Waterford.0 -
Millie Rich Milkshake wrote: »You're not deterred by it because you are a member in the club. As someone new to the area, I, like the OP am deterred by it. Even a former members agrees that it is a deterrent.
Faithlegg is 22 mins, Williamstown is 13 mins and Waterford Castle is approx 30 mins ferry depending. That amount of time is a far smaller deterrent than giving up my Saturday evening to wait around for a draw which I have a lower probability of "winning" given a line is won by members so their friends can play with them, imo of course.
You can square it however you like but it's not a remotely enticing facet of the club.
FWIW, on the rankings, whether one agrees with them or not, they are relatively objective and decided upon by those with experience.
It's quite clear that Tramore is more closely aligned with the aforementioned clubs than Fota or Mt Juilet. It's a lovely course and is probably the best in the area tbf but let's group it accordingly, Mt Juilet and Fota are in a different class.
I agree it's a deterrent because you're outsiders on this thread and think it would be a problem, not because i think it is a problem.
From the OPs original problems of members booking with their mates instead of randomers, this will happen regardless of the system and isn't a bad thing. If I'm playing in my new club I'll check if my mates are free first and look for a line together. And I can't see the problem with this. And as regards people not showing up, this was less of a problem than average I'd say. From experience of going up on a Sunday there hoping for a no show they're very rare.
And on the Mt juliet / fota point, they're on a different level to tramore, in the same way that tramore on a different level to the ones in-between. Tramore would be in the second tier of parklands with the likes of tullamore, new forest, esker hills, Mount wosely, etc. But no-one is saying it's on the level of Mt juliet or druids glen or the like. Although golf digest had it immediately after carton house O'Meara and smurfit courses last year.0 -
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Looking at my new clubs time sheet for Sunday there are 30 lines of 4 balls, so room for 120 golfers. I played with a fella on sunday who told me he got the last slot on the time sheet on the Saturday night. So at least 120 golfers had their names down. From looking at this Sundays bookings 30 of the names are "public" ie guys booking a line or spot without putting down thr individuals name.
From looking at how did I do for last Sunday, 88 returned cards from the 120+ slots taken on the time sheet. I think that's a disgrace. You should have to include a name if booking a slot and pay a no show fee if you don't fill it.0 -
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Mantis Toboggan wrote: »Absolutely, I'd imagine this is easily solved if the club are interested. No idea why some clubs still allow this carry on.
There's probably an element of "it was always this way" in a lot of clubs.
We use BRS in my own club, it opens at 6am 10 days before the competition date, but you don't pay your fee until you're signing in in the shop. Personally I think that deducting the fee at booking would just result in people not using it and just arriving on spec at their normal time.
Have to say I probably go against the trend in being totally against not allowing a member to book a full line. If I pay €1,200 a year to play golf, I want to be able (for the most part) to choose who I play with and also to choose if I play when I see the conditions at the course.
I think every club will have its own unique circumstances/demographic that need to be taken into account. What works in one won't necessarily work well in another.0 -
From looking at how did I do for last Sunday, 88 returned cards from the 120+ slots taken on the time sheet. I think that's a disgrace. You should have to include a name if booking a slot and pay a no show fee if you don't fill it.
I think it depends on if the club has full membership and there are members not getting games, versus a club with a small number of members and a timesheet that's maybe only 75% full at the best of times.
I think number of entries Vs number of cards returned is a bigger problem in golf tbh. You could easily have 10/15 cards not returned which puts a slightly different look on the numbers IMO.0 -
We use BRS in my own club, it opens at 6am 10 days before the competition date, but you don't pay your fee until you're signing in in the shop. Personally I think that deducting the fee at booking would just result in people not using it and just arriving on spec at their normal time.
I'm confused, how can someone expect to just rock up 'at their normal time' if they haven't booked it through the BRS? Wouldn't someone else have already booked their 'normal' time?0 -
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I think that you should have to include the names of your playing partners when booking the line as opposed to saying blue note +2. People definitely book the whole line in my place in the earlier times so that they can fly around in a 2 ball in the mid week opens. But the result of that is that all the times to 11am could be gone with only a couple of lines actually fully used. And the later times might not suit people.
I also think some people must just not want to play with strangers judging by how many cards are returned vs how many names are on the time sheet. Plus people just not bothering to cross off the "public" bookings when none of their regular partners used it.0 -
I agree it's a deterrent because you're outsiders on this thread and think it would be a problem, not because i think it is a problem.
From the OPs original problems of members booking with their mates instead of randomers, this will happen regardless of the system and isn't a bad thing. If I'm playing in my new club I'll check if my mates are free first and look for a line together. And I can't see the problem with this. And as regards people not showing up, this was less of a problem than average I'd say. From experience of going up on a Sunday there hoping for a no show they're very rare.
And on the Mt juliet / fota point, they're on a different level to tramore, in the same way that tramore on a different level to the ones in-between. Tramore would be in the second tier of parklands with the likes of tullamore, new forest, esker hills, Mount wosely, etc. But no-one is saying it's on the level of Mt juliet or druids glen or the like. Although golf digest had it immediately after carton house O'Meara and smurfit courses last year.
It is a problem though, whether you're viewing it as an outsider or not. You claim it's a non issue but there's no scenario where giving up a Saturday evening to wait around for a draw which you may not win is not an inconvenience. I believe one can contribute in more effective higher margin ways than drinking in a bar but each club to their own.
My main gripe is the following scenario, I attend the draw every Saturday evening, three guys are a regular group that play together.
If all three attend the draw on a Saturday, the probability that they play the most desirable times is 3x the probability I play. That's not so much of an issue for me.
However, what does annoy me is that, I again attend every Saturday while the three attend on a rota every 3rd Saturday resulting in an equal probability of playing at the most desired time.
In effect as a new member, I'm expected to attend every week for a slot while people can not attend, yet still have an equal or greater probability of "winning" a spot than me?
Am I understanding that correctly? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
If I am correct though, does that seem fair to you and enticing to a new member?
IMO, whether I am one of the three guys or the new member, I find that unfair.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »I'm confused, how can someone expect to just rock up 'at their normal time' if they haven't booked it through the BRS? Wouldn't someone else have already booked their 'normal' time?
Ya, someone else may well have booked it, but you'll pretty much always get out if you arrive up looking for a game. For instance you'd often have A arriving up because he knows B is away this week and he'll take his spot etc. Only a few weeks ago there was one guy on his own so my group of 4 split up and we went as a 2 ball and a 3 ball to ensure the chap wasn't left out. It worked too as he actually won the competition !:)0 -
Ya, someone else may well have booked it, but you'll pretty much always get out if you arrive up looking for a game. For instance you'd often have A arriving up because he knows B is away this week and he'll take his spot etc. Only a few weeks ago there was one guy on his own so my group of 4 split up and we went as a 2 ball and a 3 ball to ensure the chap wasn't left out. It worked too as he actually won the competition !:)
That's madness and makes a farce of the entire system. If B is away this week, WTF is he doing booking himself into the comp in the first place? In our club, the only time I/we've been late is due to car trouble. We'd ring the pro-shop and let him know so that anyone who is after us but is there early can get out early. This creates a bit of slack in the timesheet so that when we arrive, it's easier to slot us in.
Only once did that not happen and we were a good 45 mins waiting for a spot. The notion of just rocking up at 10am or whatever, hoping to get out because "I always play at that time" is baffling.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »That's madness and makes a farce of the entire system. If B is away this week, WTF is he doing booking himself into the comp in the first place? In our club, the only time I/we've been late is due to car trouble. We'd ring the pro-shop and let him know so that anyone who is after us but is there early can get out early. This creates a bit of slack in the timesheet so that when we arrive, it's easier to slot us in.
Only once did that not happen and we were a good 45 mins waiting for a spot. The notion of just rocking up at 10am or whatever, hoping to get out because "I always play at that time" is baffling.
In reality you'll often get guys booking a line with the same 4 names all the time. A group could delegate one guy to be their timesheet guy and wake up at 6am to book the line.
If B is away or not playing or whatever, maybe his group don't want a randomer joining them, it might not be pc but it happens. I'm sure we've all been stuck with "that guy" who takes 75 practice swings and lasers the flag from 30 yards, or the guy who wants to be round in 90 mins.0 -
In reality you'll often get guys booking a line with the same 4 names all the time. A group could delegate one guy to be their timesheet guy and wake up at 6am to book the line.
If B is away or not playing or whatever, maybe his group don't want a randomer joining them, it might not be pc but it happens. I'm sure we've all been stuck with "that guy" who takes 75 practice swings and lasers the flag from 30 yards, or the guy who wants to be round in 90 mins.
That's exactly the type of thing that boils my p1ss. Getting stuck with that guy is unfortunate, but part of being in the club. You can be sure there are fellow members missing out on playing in the comp because of this. It's self entitled and selfish and I'm sure common in every club in the country.0 -
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The point being they just block book the 4ball and even if one is not going they leave their name down to avoid another player joining them
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Millie Rich Milkshake wrote: »It is a problem though, whether you're viewing it as an outsider or not. You claim it's a non issue but there's no scenario where giving up a Saturday evening to wait around for a draw which you may not win is not an inconvenience. I believe one can contribute in more effective higher margin ways than drinking in a bar but each club to their own.
My main gripe is the following scenario, I attend the draw every Saturday evening, three guys are a regular group that play together.
If all three attend the draw on a Saturday, the probability that they play the most desirable times is 3x the probability I play. That's not so much of an issue for me.
However, what does annoy me is that, I again attend every Saturday while the three attend on a rota every 3rd Saturday resulting in an equal probability of playing at the most desired time.
In effect as a new member, I'm expected to attend every week for a slot while people can not attend, yet still have an equal or greater probability of "winning" a spot than me?
Am I understanding that correctly? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
If I am correct though, does that seem fair to you and enticing to a new member?
IMO, whether I am one of the three guys or the new member, I find that unfair.
What you're worried about is a far smaller problem that you seem to be fearful of. Presumably you want a time between half 8 and 10, because they'll be the ones taken in the Saturday draw. If not you can just book the time you want when it goes on line. But all you need to do is go online once the sheet is up and pick the best time left assuming it suits. Then check back a couple of times throughout the week and if it's just one space you're looking for one will more than likely open up close to your preferred time and you can just move your name.
In the case of you vs 3 people looking for a line; if the sheet just goes up on line and the 4 of you log on, they'll have 3 times the chance of getting the line. If they just send one to the draw weekly and you go every week you'll have 3 times a better chance of getting the line than if it went straight online because it'll be 1 shot for you and them each instead of 3 for them online.
You might not like the system, but it is fair. And as I say, it's a bit of a reward for supporting the bar, a good way to introduce members to each other and help the club community. If someone goes up every week for the draw and has a pint, that's an extra €250 to the club. If 20 people do that it's an extra 5 grand. And in reality I suspect it's worth more to the club.0 -
The point being they just block book the 4ball and even if one is not going they leave their name down to avoid another player joining them
That's it exactly. I'm not saying its right or its wrong, but it happens. That said I've often seen situations where the pro will know who has entered the competition and will shuffle guys around to make sure as many are looked after as possible. Or two 3 balls and a two ball might become two fours if they're compatible.0 -
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That's exactly the type of thing that boils my p1ss. Getting stuck with that guy is unfortunate, but part of being in the club. You can be sure there are fellow members missing out on playing in the comp because of this. It's self entitled and selfish and I'm sure common in every club in the country.
It may well be all of those things. Unfortunately people over time get into their bubble and things become routine, its human nature. They'll still think they're right and some will think its appalling. To be fair I'm half playing devils advocate because I don't think its a black and white issue, there's room for some grey imo.0 -
Golfgraffix wrote: »If any member has paid their fee and there is a slot free surely they have a right to it ??? It’s not up to any other member to deny them.
They do indeed have a right to it.0 -
In the case of you vs 3 people looking for a line; if the sheet just goes up on line and the 4 of you log on, they'll have 3 times the chance of getting the line. 1. If they just send one to the draw weekly and you go every week you'll have 3 times a better chance of getting the line than if it went straight online because it'll be 1 shot for you and them each instead of 3 for them online.
You might not like the system, 2. but it is fair.
And as I say, it's a bit of a 3. reward for supporting the bar, a good way to introduce members to each other and help the club community. If someone goes up every week for the draw and has a pint, that's an extra €250 to the club. If 20 people do that it's an extra 5 grand. And in reality I suspect it's worth more to the club.
1. I am more than happy to back myself to be on the ball enough to book the slot I prefer. Although I'm not in total agreement with the total line booking, I can deal with that for the aforementioned reason. Yhis combination is the issue as I must stomach the inconvenience of attending and the reduced probability of success.
2. Clearly our definition of fairness is quite far apart. Given it's lack of adoption elsewhere, I suspect most would view it's combination of inconvenience and questionable fairness as quite off putting.
3. As previously mentioned, supporting a club doesn't only exist in the bar. Furthermore, not everyone wants to socialise in a bar, less and less people in fact. Drinking pints in a bar in order to give myself a greater chance of a decent tee time for the proceeding day is beyond ridiculous in 2019.0 -
Not sure what your gripe is.
People have tried to explain to you multiple times that you get your desired time through BRS most of the time
Yet you keep harping on about going to the bar on Saturday completely ignoring the point about BRS being made. Now you come up with hypothetical scenarios over 1 guy going vs 3 guys going.
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and even apologised for calling out suspected trolling. I’m beginning to regret that now.0 -
You might not like the system, but it is fair. And as I say, it's a bit of a reward for supporting the bar, a good way to introduce members to each other and help the club community. If someone goes up every week for the draw and has a pint, that's an extra €250 to the club. If 20 people do that it's an extra 5 grand. And in reality I suspect it's worth more to the club.
It is the exact opposite of fair. It rewards those who have free time / availability / lack of commitments at whatever time the draw is made.
Lets say that time is 6 o'clock of a Saturday evening:
Anyone who works lates on Saturday;
or plays foorball/hurling etc;
or has kids playing sport in the afternoon;
or who was out on the course early on Saturday morning;
or has a partner who needs the car on a Saturday;
or likes a few pints of a Saturday is snookered.
It smacks of a clique who banded together and ended up getting the rules changed in their favour, the group of auldfellas who would be there at that time anyway, because they always tee-off at 1.30pm on Saturdays.
It would seriously impact my decision on whether or not to join a club.
Your point about 'supporting the club' ignores the member who gets up early and volunteers around the course or who brings a 4-ball with him once a month but has other commitments and is getting shafted.0 -
CalamariFritti wrote: »Not sure what your gripe is.
People have tried to explain to you multiple times that you get your desired time through BRS most of the time
Yet you keep harping on about going to the bar on Saturday completely ignoring the point about BRS being made. Now you come up with hypothetical scenarios over 1 guy going vs 3 guys going.
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and even apologised for calling out suspected trolling. I’m beginning to regret that now.
I didn't come up with that hypothetical scenario, mur28 did. I've commented on having to go to the bar vs the timesheet going directly online, you can read back over my posts if you want, I'm not going to repeat myself or we'll just be going around in circles.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »It is the exact opposite of fair. It rewards those who have free time / availability / lack of commitments at whatever time the draw is made.
Lets say that time is 6 o'clock of a Saturday evening:
Anyone who works lates on Saturday;
or plays foorball/hurling etc;
or has kids playing sport in the afternoon;
or who was out on the course early on Saturday morning;
or has a partner who needs the car on a Saturday;
or likes a few pints of a Saturday is snookered.
It smacks of a clique who banded together and ended up getting the rules changed in their favour, the group of auldfellas who would be there at that time anyway, because they always tee-off at 1.30pm on Saturdays.
It would seriously impact my decision on whether or not to join a club.
Your point about 'supporting the club' ignores the member who gets up early and volunteers around the course or who brings a 4-ball with him once a month but has other commitments and is getting shafted.
I understand all of that. But at the end of it all, if you're just looking for a spot with a window of an hour you'll get it online with minimal hassle. And the club gets a decent revenue stream from it. It's a very old membership and of course the members will run it the way they feel suits the membership best. The thing that used to annoy me was that you'd virtually never get to play from the blues. This was because the members aren't able for it. But again, I don't really want the course set up in a way that's going to ruin a heap of my fellow members Sunday, so I didn't mind.
And I'm exactly the guy the system didn't suit and actually have experience of it - I was a distance member living in dublin who got to play a few weekends each year. I'm pretty sure I am better qualified to say how well it worked or didn't than people who haven't had experience of it.0 -
The point being they just block book the 4ball and even if one is not going they leave their name down to avoid another player joining them
That really is appalling behaviour. I was always taught - and continue to teach my children - that you should always try and accommodate people on the golf course. Treat others as you would like to be treated yourself. It's only good manners. One of the nice things about my club is that you feel comfortable playing with just about anybody.0 -
I didn't come up with that hypothetical scenario, mur28 did. I've commented on having to go to the bar vs the timesheet going directly online, you can read back over my posts if you want, I'm not going to repeat myself or we'll just be going around in circles.
Sorry for the confusion didn’t mean you0 -
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CalamariFritti wrote: »Sorry for the confusion didn’t mean you
Sorry, that was my fault. I misread your post.0
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