Cash only shops

Sleeper12

54and56 wrote:

Cash only businesses are almost certainly on the fiddle. (IMHO)

Do you not think that Revenue might inspect Cash only businesses more often and in more depth, if your assumptions are correct?

I can assure you that for the most part "cash only" businesses aren't any more likely to be fiddling the books than a business that accept cards.

54and56

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Do any of them use accountants to do their books and taxes?

Yes

Amirani

54and56 wrote: »

They don't need any excuses. Cash is legal tender. Cards aren't. Businesses must accept legal tender

This is incorrect and not quite what the definition of legal tender is. Legal tender has to be accepted for the payment of a debt (though can be subject to restrictions on small denominations). Legal tender does not have to be accepted as payment for goods and services where a debt does not exist.

fritzelly

Amirani wrote: »

This is incorrect and not quite what the definition of legal tender is. Legal tender has to be accepted for the payment of a debt (though can be subject to restrictions on small denominations). Legal tender does not have to be accepted as payment for goods and services where a debt does not exist.

You won't find many shops accepting a 100 euro note or higher - quite in their right to refuse it.

54and56

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Do you not think that Revenue might inspect Cash only businesses more often and in more depth, if your assumptions are correct?

Cash only businesses (take aways, nail bars, taxi drivers, florists etc) are typically single unit, one owner micro businesses. Revenue are quite commercial, they aren't going to deploy expensive and limited resources to try and bust all the cash only businesses fiddling a few grand a year. It's too low down the food chain for them most of the time. If the odd one falls in their lap (disgruntled employee reports employer etc) they'll make hay with it for some PR but that's about it. Far better for Revenue to be targeting large scale tax avoidance.

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I can assure you that for the most part "cash only" businesses aren't any more likely to be fiddling the books than a business that accept cards.

How did you establish that?

54and56

Amirani wrote: »

This is incorrect and not quite what the definition of legal tender is. Legal tender has to be accepted for the payment of a debt (though can be subject to restrictions on small denominations). Legal tender does not have to be accepted as payment for goods and services where a debt does not exist.

You're missing my point.

Cash is the only form of Legal tender. That doesn't mean shops have to accept a barrow load of coins as payment or €100, €200 or €500 notes in payment of they don't want to.

Cards of any sort aren't legal tender.

IAMAMORON

As long as there is a black market, there will always be a need for cash.

It may change in definition over time, technology may improve how we use denominations of exchange. But the concept that cash will not exist is nonsense and scaremongering.

fritzelly

It's only legal tender as far as a debt is concerned and that's where the buck (or euro) stops

I could offer a chicken to pay for goods if they wanted to accept it.

54and56

fritzelly wrote: »

It's only legal tender as far as a debt is concerned and that's where the buck (or euro) stops

I could offer a chicken to pay for goods if they wanted to accept it.

I don't disagree but other than cash, what is defined in law as legal tender?

dxhound2005

In my world nobody tells me anything about their dodgy dealings with illegal aliens, nixers, SW fraud, tax evasion, money laundering etc. Anyone who knows about this sort of stuff can report it online to Revenue and SW, or to the Gardai.

In addition professionals like solicitors and accountants have a legal obligation to report it if they come across it in their businesses.

fritzelly

54and56 wrote: »

I don't disagree but other than cash, what is defined in law as legal tender?

Nothing else, but what has that to do with shops not accepting cards?

IAMAMORON

IAMAMORON wrote: »

As long as there is a black market, there will always be a need for cash.

It may change in definition over time, technology may improve how we use denominations of exchange. But the concept that cash will not exist is nonsense and scaremongering.

It may not be as far fetched as you think, the trend seems to be towards a cashless society. I would say your first sentence works equally well in reverse, as long as there is cash, there will always be a black market. But will it be replaced in the future by cryptocurrency as the currency of choice to avoid tax? I’m afraid I don’t know enough about it to be make a case for or against it.

Sleeper12

54and56 wrote:

How did you establish that?

30 years in business. I have seen it all.

I find it amazing that a business accepting cards gives the illusion of legitimately to you. Businesses laundering money for the biggest criminals in the world accept cards. You can pay for a call girl with a card. She may or may not pay taxes on this. Churches deal almost exclusively in cash. Not many can accept cards. Lots of websites obviously accept cards yet might not pay any taxes at all.

You will find that small businesses that don't accept cards do so because the fees are too high where cash is fee free. Some of these might fiddle tax BUT there is as much chance of a small business accepting cards fiddling tax.

The point you continue to miss is that it is as easy for businesses that accept cards to fiddle tax as businesses that are cash only.

dxhound2005

dxhound2005 wrote: »

In my world nobody tells me anything about their dodgy dealings with illegal aliens, nixers, SW fraud, tax evasion, money laundering etc. Anyone who knows about this sort of stuff can report it online to Revenue and SW, or to the Gardai.

In addition professionals like solicitors and accountants have a legal obligation to report it if they come across it in their businesses.

You mean your family and friends have never told you they are fiddling tax, vat and paye?

Sleeper12

54and56 wrote:

Cash is the only form of Legal tender. That doesn't mean shops have to accept a barrow load of coins as payment or €100, €200 or €500 notes in payment of they don't want to.

You don't understand legal tender in Ireland. Shops don't have to accept cash at all. This isn't what legal tender means.

54and56

fritzelly wrote: »

Nothing else, but what has that to do with shops not accepting cards?

My original and only point ref shops only accepting cash and not cards was that cash is legal tender and cards aren't so cash only businesses have absolutely no reason to explain why they don't take cards.

fritzelly

Dav010 wrote: »

It may not be as far fetched as you think, the trend seems to be towards a cashless society. I would say your first sentence works equally well in reverse, as long as there is cash, there will always be a black market. But will it be replaced in the future by cryptocurrency as the currency of choice to avoid tax? I’m afraid I don’t know enough about it to be make a case for or against it.

Really think the likes of this may become the norm in years to come

https://chip-implants.com/nfc-implant/

Sleeper12

Sleeper12 wrote: »

30 years in business. I have seen it all.

I find it amazing that a business accepting cards gives the illusion of legitimately to you. Businesses laundering money for the biggest criminals in the world accept cards. You can pay for a call girl with a card. She may or may not pay taxes on this. Churches deal almost exclusively in cash. Not many can accept cards. Lots of websites obviously accept cards yet might not pay any taxes at all.

You will find that small businesses that don't accept cards do so because the fees are too high where cash is fee free. Some of these might fiddle tax BUT there is as much chance of a small business accepting cards fiddling tax.

The point you continue to miss is that it is as easy for businesses that accept cards to fiddle tax as businesses that are cash only.

Don’t think church pays income tax, but I could be wrong.

dxhound2005

Dav010 wrote: »

You mean your family and friends have never told you they are fiddling tax, vat and paye?

Like I said nobody tells me any of this sort of stuff. If you were doing a fraud would you tell your family and friends?

fritzelly

54and56 wrote: »

My original and only point ref shops only accepting cash and not cards was that cash is legal tender and cards aren't so cash only businesses have absolutely no reason to explain why they don't take cards.

They don't have to accept cash either, as shown in the thread not accepting cards means they are losing business based on a false myth of it costs too much
Of course they could have had shady dealings in the past with a provider and now find themselves blacklisted from ever being able to take cards

54and56

54and56 wrote: »

My original and only point ref shops only accepting cash and not cards was that cash is legal tender and cards aren't so cash only businesses have absolutely no reason to explain why they don't take cards.

Yes they do, cash only shops tend to deal in small cost items, if it costs 45c to lodge €100 compared to multiple times that in transaction fees/terminal rental fees/broadband etc, then there is a simple explanation. Surely as an accountant that must be obvious.

dxhound2005

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Like I said nobody tells me any of this sort of stuff. If you were doing a fraud would you tell your family and friends?

Absolutely not, makes me wonder about the company the 54and56 keeps.

enricoh

dxhound2005 wrote: »

In my world nobody tells me anything about their dodgy dealings with illegal aliens, nixers, SW fraud, tax evasion, money laundering etc. Anyone who knows about this sort of stuff can report it online to Revenue and SW, or to the Gardai.

In addition professionals like solicitors and accountants have a legal obligation to report it if they come across it in their businesses.

Solicitors and accountants have a legal obligation to report it - god bless your naivety!

54and56

Sleeper12 wrote: »

30 years in business. I have seen it all.

I find it amazing that a business accepting cards gives the illusion of legitimately to you. Businesses laundering money for the biggest criminals in the world accept cards. You can pay for a call girl with a card. She may or may not pay taxes on this. Churches deal almost exclusively in cash. Not many can accept cards. Lots of websites obviously accept cards yet might not pay any taxes at all.

You will find that small businesses that don't accept cards do so because the fees are too high where cash is fee free. Some of these might fiddle tax BUT there is as much chance of a small business accepting cards fiddling tax.

The point you continue to miss is that it is as easy for businesses that accept cards to fiddle tax as businesses that are cash only.

Cash isn't free, check the bank charges for lodging cash or taking coinage.

I never said that businesses which take cards don't also fiddle if they can but the data/info/audit trail makes it much much harder.

All the people I know who operate mostly or predominately cash businesses fiddle tax to some degree or other. They pay staff in cash or pocket "cash jobs" thus under declaring income and under declaring VAT etc.

Others experience may be entirely different.

54and56

Dav010 wrote: »

Absolutely not, makes me wonder about the company the 54and56 keeps.

Farmers, engineers, plumbers, contractors etc. Normal everyday people.

fritzelly

Dav010 wrote: »

Yes they do, cash only shops tend to deal in small cost items, if it costs 45c to lodge €100 compared to multiple times that in transaction fees/terminal rental fees/broadband etc, then there is a simple explanation. Surely as an accountant that must be obvious.

MyPOS charge 1.75% on transactions (only other charge is terminal price but thats a one off fee) - depending on your industry it's very likely there is a group scheme you can get far better rates
But there is more to taking cards than what might be a very small difference in charges

54and56

54and56 wrote: »

Cash isn't free, check the bank charges for lodging cash or taking coinage.

All the people I know who operate mostly or predominately cash businesses fiddle tax to some degree or other. They pay staff in cash or pocket "cash jobs" thus under declaring income and under declaring VAT etc.

BOI are 60c per €100, AIB are 45c. Considering there would be a lot of small transactions in a takeaway, the card machine costs would likely exceed note lodgements.

Dav010

Dav010 wrote: »

Absolutely not, makes me wonder about the company the 54and56 keeps.

You’re way too obsessed with this one.

freshpopcorn

Some do it because they want to fiddle money.
They there's those afraid of technology. I know some here will say it's only a card machine but some people can't use a basic computerised till from what I know.
Then there's those who simply want be bothered. There if there making money. They simply aren't bothered.
I live in a regional town and in smaller shops especially alot of customers don't use card. I'd say it would be about 10% of sales.

ReginaldSmythV

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

You’re way too obsessed with this one.

I’m bored, football is over.

But I’ve never heard a conversation where people told me they were fiddling tax.

Sleeper12

Dav010 wrote:

Don’t think church pays income tax, but I could be wrong.

They have to file returns with revenue. I think priests get an allowance rather than a wage so might not pay tax but every parish has employees. The priests housekeeper is PAYE worker for example.

Off topic here but Eamonn Casey "borrowed" 80k punts, from parish funds, to help pay for his sons upkeep. When the brown stuff hit the fan an anonymous person donated 80k so he could repay the debt. (the money was just resting in my account). I'd put money on it that Revenue didn't treat this as a gift or charged gift tax even though it couldn't be anything else.

Still waters

Some posters on here are naive to the point of ridiculousness, heads firmly buried in the sand about the black economy, its hard to beat getting paid a couple of grand in a crisp fiftys every once in a while for a job well done

Still waters

Dav010 wrote: »

I’m bored, football is over.

But I’ve never heard a conversation where people told me they were fiddling tax.

So you've never paid a mechanic/plumber/electrician in cash or bought something off adverts or donedeal for cash

dxhound2005

enricoh wrote: »

Solicitors and accountants have a legal obligation to report it - god bless your naivety!

They are not above the law.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/solicitor-s-office-and-gym-targeted-in-cab-searches-1.4032626

A solicitor’s office, a gym and an accountant’s office were searched by the Criminal Assets Bureau (Cab) on Friday morning as part of a major operation targeting a west Dublin family-based gang.

riclad

When a shop takes a credit card payment ,they pay the cc company x per cent to handle the transaction .
A shop with a credit card terminal needs a connection to the internet
to verify the card is valid ,to send data to american express,etc
i have never seen anyone use a credit card in a chip shop.
not all people are experts at technology.
i don,t think its to avoid tax.
i think its the rule , kiss, keep it simple.
cash registers work, they are easy to maintain.they do not need a internet connection.
the reason shops take credit cards is some people do not like to carry cash,
they assume every shop takes a credit card .
i see people going to lidl and paying for a 10 euro item with a credit card .

If Everyone you know is avoiding tax ,i wonder where you hang around.
Its, like some people who use cannabis think everyone use,s it.
people tend to hang around with people like them.
revenue has acess to bank records,
If joe blogs owns a laundry and his income is very small compared with
other laundry owners they will be very suspicious .

Ally Dick

We're all complicit in the black economy to some degree or other, but paying a builder or electrician in cash (wink wink) is different to not declaring your own income to the revenue. I have contributed to the former, but would never get involved in the latter!

Still waters

Still waters wrote: »

So you've never paid a mechanic/plumber/electrician in cash or bought something off adverts or donedeal for cash

All the time, but as I am not privy to their tax returns, I would not presume to know their standing with Revenue. And to be honest, I never had a plumber/electrician go to their van and take out a credit card machine.

No to adverts and donedeal, don’t really know anything about them.

Ally Dick

riclad wrote: »

revenue has acess to bank records,
.

I think you're wrong there. I worked in a bank and I've never had such a request from the revenue. I think it would have to be furnished to them by the customer of the bank, through an accountant or otherwise. They don't have direct access to bank records

riclad

IF i pay 20 euro for an item on adverts am i supposed to pay vat,
how doe,s that work.
unless you own a shop or run a business you won,t be registered for vat.

Ally Dick

riclad wrote: »

IF i pay 20 euro for an item on adverts am i supposed to pay vat,
how doe,s that work.
unless you own a shop or run a business you won,t be registered for vat.

A supplier of goods and services is supposed to charge VAT and pay VAT, if their income is either 16k for services or 33k for goods (or something like that) It doesn't apply to Joe Bloggs who is not registered for VAT

fritzelly

riclad wrote: »

IF i pay 20 euro for an item on adverts am i supposed to pay vat,
how doe,s that work.
unless you own a shop or run a business you won,t be registered for vat.

Private sellers are not a company and don't have to pay VAT on second hand goods
Unless you are above the threshold you don't even need to be registered for VAT as a company

Sleeper12

54and56 wrote:

Cash isn't free, check the bank charges for lodging cash or taking coinage.

You don't understand small business nor are you listening to the small business people posting on this thread.

Most small businesses swap coins. Some receive 100s in coins but rather than lodge it they will swap it with the local barber that needs coins every week. Cash DOESN'T have to go into the bank & therefore can be fee free. Cards HAVE to go through the bank & always incur fees

The local barber, hair salon etc might not accept cards because the fees are so high. They accept cash. They pay wages & stock in cash. There is not much cash left to lodge in the bank at this point. They will pay less for this small amount of cash in bank fees then they will on card fees.
There are ways around cash fees in banks too. Lodging cash into a fee free saving account is a great way. When the small lodgements amount to a large sum you then electronically transfer it to the business account. So for a tiny transfer fee you can move 1000s of euro into the business account. It's easy for me get 1000s of euros in cash into my business account for a few cent. On the other hand I pay around 40 euros in card fees and machine costs to accept 4000 in card transactions. The only fee I pay for cash lodgements is the transfer fee from savings account to current account

For an awful lot of small businesses the cost of using card machines is much higher than cash.

fritzelly

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Lodging cash into a fee free saving account is a great way. When the small lodgements amount to a large sum you then electronically transfer it to the business account.

Then Mr Revenue comes along and goes hmmm money laundering. The bank should be flagging those types of transactions

Ally Dick

fritzelly wrote: »

Then Mr Revenue comes along and goes hmmm money laundering. The bank should be flagging those types of transactions

The bank would flag them as suspicious transactions. Large amounts of cash into a savings account draw major attention....as much for fee avoidance as for suspicious activity

extra gravy

Ally Dick wrote: »

I've noticed that going hand in hand with cash only shops, is the absence of a receipt, which means you won't get a VAT breakdown...so I assume they are not paying VAT....e.g. on the fiddle

Plenty of places don't give a VAT breakdown on their receipts not just cash only shops...Dunnes, Argos don't. Lots of places don't give receipts now, till roll is an overhead and it's not efficient for a small business if you have to hand one out for every small transaction.

fritzelly

extra gravy wrote: »

Plenty of places don't give a VAT breakdown on their receipts not just cash only shops...Dunnes, Argos don't. Lots of places don't give receipts now, till roll is an overhead and it's not efficient for a small business if you have to hand one out for every small transaction.

More and more places ask you now if you want a receipt I've noticed - only time I bother is when I might need it for a warranty

54and56

Dav010 wrote: »

Don’t think church pays income tax, but I could be wrong.

Biggest "cash" business bandits of all!!

Sleeper12

fritzelly wrote:

Then Mr Revenue comes along and goes hmmm money laundering. The bank should be flagging those types of transactions

You are having a laugh right?

Research money laundering and come back. Nothing I suggested is illegal or defrauds revenue.

Businesses are allowed to have several accounts & several types of accounts. There is nothing unusual for a small business to have a savings account to cut down on fees. The more money small businesses save on fees the more revenue should get because of more profit. Solicitors, estate agents & the like handle large amounts of money every day. Do you suppose that they only have a current account or do you suppose they have accounts that they lodge this money into that earns interest? This is perfectly legitimate. The interest earned is part of the business & revenue gets their piece of the pie.

A family member has 40 taxi plates and 40 cars. He has a dedicated bank account for each one. This helps him keep track of everything. Each cars finances kept separate by the bank accounts. Perfectly legitimate and above board.

ScrubsfanChris

Kind of understand why a barbers or small shop wouldn't except card.
But I had a call from my brother the other day who was at South Doc (medical centre) because he had little cash and they wouldn't except card.
This is a place where the minimal charge is like €60+

What are they hiding? :pac:

54and56

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Like I said nobody tells me any of this sort of stuff. If you were doing a fraud would you tell your family and friends?

You know a lot of fraud can just be observed and a lot of people, especially after a few drinks in company they are comfortable in, can't help bragging about how they get one over on the tax man etc etc.