Cash only shops

Sleeper12

fritzelly wrote:

More and more places ask you now if you want a receipt I've noticed - only time I bother is when I might need it for a warranty

Not disagreeing with you here but I have noticed some people are very hostile when offered receipts nowadays. I've seen some fling it back at the cashier in supermarkets. I'm not filling up my bin with your rubbish type of attitude

fritzelly

Sleeper12 wrote: »

You are having a laugh right?

Research money laundering and come back. Nothing I suggested is illegal or defrauds revenue.

Are you trying to tell me you are depositing money directly into a "savings" account under the name of your business?
Don't know any bank that allows that to avoid fees, in fact does it not have to be from the current account.

54and56

riclad wrote: »

If Everyone you know is avoiding tax ,i wonder where you hang around.

I know a lot of people.

The only people I know who regularly fiddle their tax are a few friends and extended family members who own small predominantly cash businesses.

Hope that clarifies things for you

riclad

I See no problem if a small shop wants to just run a business using cash,
supermarkets and large shops cannot do this as some customers prefer to just use credit cards,
business ,s give some employees company credit cards to pay for some service,s ,like hotel,s ,taxi,s etc
If you employ a carpenter or a plumper, to do work she should give you a reciept which will will include cost of work, plus x per cent vat.

Sleeper12

fritzelly wrote:

Are you trying to tell me you are depositing money directly into a "savings" account under the name of your business?

We are talking about small businesses here. Sole traders. You don't have to have a business account at all. In fact you don't even have to have a bank account! No law says you must. It's perfectly legal to lodge your business money into any account you want so long as you show revenue this with your accounts. A small business might have a "trading as" business current account or they might have a current account in their own name. When filing business accounts with revenue you must include bank statements for the bank account is used for the business. If this account has thousands each month being transferred from a savings account then its visible on the business account bank statement and is visible to revenue.

Where exactly do you see the deception in this? It's perfectly transparent and legal.

dxhound2005

54and56 wrote: »

I know a lot of people.

The only people I know who regularly fiddle their tax are a few friends and extended family members who own small predominantly cash businesses.

Hope that clarifies things for you

And you also know that some of your colleagues in the accountancy profession are doing the books for these fraudsters. Dodgy goings on all round.

fritzelly

Sleeper12 wrote: »

We are talking about small businesses here. Sole traders.

You didn't make that clear, so apologise. Most people running a shop are gonna be registered as a company

Strumms

I’m in Dublin, not for from the airport and there is a pub that certainly up to a year or two ago had no TV, no WiFi and no card machine... it was exactly and probably still is for the most part like walking into the ‘50’s and not in a kitschy sort of way... the owners always had it billed as a community meeting place where conversation is king over a load of people staring at a box... it works.

54and56

dxhound2005 wrote: »

And you also know that some of your colleagues in the accountancy profession are doing the books for these fraudsters. Dodgy goings on all round.

And presumably you also know that those accountants can only use the information (invoices, receipts, wage records etc) that is supplied to then by their clients?

Small businesses don't have a legal requirement to be audited. Their accounts are "complied" from info supplied by the business.

If a small business owner has actual sales of €X but only provides his accountant with invoices for €X-€7,000 as he pocketed the proceeds of €7,000 worth of cash sales during the year which he didn't have to write invoices for how would you propose the Accountant report something he isn't aware of nor has any evidence of?

Sleeper12

fritzelly wrote:

You didn't make that clear, so apologise. Most people running a shop are gonna be registered as a company

In every post I stressed small businesses. I explained how one small business swaps coins for notes with another & vise versa. They avoid bank charges by doing this. They pay staff in cash because it saves them lodging cash into the bank & paying cash fees.

Another poster made the uniformed comment that they believed that most businesses not accepting cards is because they are fiddling the books. Some of these do indeed fiddle the books but so do small businesses that accept cards. Accepting cards or not is not a way to judge if a business is fiddling the books.

Most small business don't accept cards because cash is cheaper. Not all cash goes into the bank. A clever small business can keep cash lodgement fees very low or almost none existing. I have given plenty of examples of how this works. Posters pointing to the listed cash lodge fees and comparing them to card fees don't realise that fees are paid on all card transactions but not all of the cash has to be lodged into the bank.

Card fees are much higher than cash fees for most small businesses because they manage the cash in such a way. A great example is the barber shop. Half of the six day weeks takings comes in on Friday and Saturday. Who wants all that cash hanging around the shop? What happens throughout the day is that paypackets get filled one at a time as the day goes on. Staff get paid as the day goes on. If the shop is held up there is never a lot of cash in the till. Its clever. Its managing cash.

I accept cards but most pay me in cash. I manage my cash in such a way that I don't pay any fee at all for cash. Its the cheapest form of payment for me. Its free! Cards are the most expensive form of payment for me. I'd rather someone paid me by bank transfer rather than card because its cheaper for me but cash costs me nothing to accept.

I accept cards and I use cards but cash is king. A cashless society isn't a good thing. Its not a society I'd be rushing into

dxhound2005

54and56 wrote: »

And presumably you also know that those accountants can only use the information (invoices, receipts, wage records etc) that is supplied to then by their clients?

Small businesses don't have a legal requirement to be audited. Their accounts are "complied" from info supplied by the business.

If a small business owner has actual sales of €X but only provides his accountant with invoices for €X-€7,000 as he pocketed the proceeds of €7,000 worth of cash sales during the year which he didn't have to write invoices for how would you propose the Accountant report something he isn't aware of nor has any evidence of?

I remember because of the financial crash there was new legislation to make the professions more responsible to report anything suspicious. Some accountants and auditors have got a bad name because they turned a blind eye to dodgy goings on.

The safest thing if you do not want the CAB turning up at your door, is to get the proper information from your clients, not just accept anything they think they will get away with.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2010/act/6/enacted/en/print.html

Sleeper12

Strumms wrote:

I’m in Dublin, not for from the airport and there is a pub that certainly up to a year or two ago had no TV, no WiFi and no card machine... it was exactly and probably still is for the most part like walking into the ‘50’s and not in a kitschy sort of way... the owners always had it billed as a community meeting place where conversation is king over a load of people staring at a box... it works.

The Donaghmede Inn is the biggest pub in the area for miles around. Its busy enough to have at least two bar staff on from opening at 10 or half 10. Some afternoons it can have 4 barstaff. To this day they don't take cards. Cheques no problem but show them a card & they tell you that there is a pass machine (actually there's two) right outside the door. The pub has a large mixture of people. OAP's in the morning. Working Joe's in the afternoon /evening and lots of young male & female at night. They don't seem to lose any business by not accepting cards.

Mean Laqueefa

Strumms wrote: »

I’m in Dublin, not for from the airport and there is a pub that certainly up to a year or two ago had no TV, no WiFi and no card machine... it was exactly and probably still is for the most part like walking into the ‘50’s and not in a kitschy sort of way... the owners always had it billed as a community meeting place where conversation is king over a load of people staring at a box... it works.

Sleeper12 wrote: »

The Donaghmede Inn is the biggest pub in the area for miles around. Its busy enough to have at least two bar staff on from opening at 10 or half 10. Some afternoons it can have 4 barstaff. To this day they don't take cards. Cheques no problem but show them a card & they tell you that there is a pass machine (actually there's two) right outside the door. The pub has a large mixture of people. OAP's in the morning. Working Joe's in the afternoon /evening and lots of young male & female at night. They don't seem to lose any business by not accepting cards.

The diggers aka Kavanaghs in glasnevin is always packed of locals and toursits dont accept card. They dont loose business either, no Tv's or music either, the bar still has saloon doors

54and56

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The safest thing if you do not want the CAB turning up at your door, is to get the proper information from your clients, not just accept anything they think they will get away with.

Quoting the legislation doesn't answer my question.

Client: Here are all my invoices, receipts and payroll records for the year.

Accountant: Are you sure this is everything?

Client: Yes.

At this point, bearing in mind there is no requirement in law for the business to be audited, what do you expect the Accountant to do? Report all his clients just in case they might be on the fiddle?

BarryD2

Several good reasons above to deal in cash. From a consumer POV though, if paying cash, at least always ask for printed receipt. And if sum larger, a VAT receipt. That way going through the till system, it’s harder and/or more inconvenient for the retailer to hide it from anyone examining records.

Always ask for a print receipt.

dxhound2005

54and56 wrote: »

Quoting the legislation doesn't answer my question.

Client: Here are all my invoices, receipts and payroll records for the year.

Accountant: Are you sure this is everything?

Client: Yes.

At this point, bearing in mind there is no requirement in law for the business to be audited, what do you expect the Accountant to do? Report all his clients just in case they might be on the fiddle?

Tell your colleagues that some of their clients are on the fiddle.

54and56

Sleeper12 wrote: »

They don't seem to lose any business by not accepting cards.

Well they are certainly losing business from people who don't carry cash and would like to pay by card/Google Pay etc.

You just don't miss them as they aren't there, only the cash customers are and maybe that's enough business for the owners.

54and56

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Tell your colleagues that some of their clients are on the fiddle.

They're not my colleagues.

dxhound2005

54and56 wrote: »

They're not my colleagues.

Tell them anyway.

54and56

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Tell them anyway.

Sure, will do. Hope they don't die of shock!!

Sleeper12

54and56 wrote:

You just don't miss them as they aren't there, only the cash customers are and maybe that's enough business for the owners.

You don't miss them because it's a busy pub without them. The owner is an accountant. He goes over everything with a fine tooth comb everyday. I'm pretty certain that he has done the maths on this and he believes that there is less profit by accepting cards. There are plenty of cheques passed over the bar though

Ally Dick

Sleeper12 wrote: »

There are plenty of cheques passed over the bar though

Wow. That's so stupid

54and56

Sleeper12 wrote: »

You don't miss them because it's a busy pub without them. The owner is an accountant. He goes over everything with a fine tooth comb everyday. I'm pretty certain that he has done the maths on this and he believes that there is less profit by accepting cards. There are plenty of cheques passed over the bar though

At scale, and that pub sounds like it's a big operation, cash has a lot of costs you don't have with credit/debit cards;-

1. Security, you need a secure office and safe etc.

2. Your insurance will be higher.

3. You have to pay someone to count the cash and balance the till Vs the Z reports etc.

4. You're far more open to employee theft.

No such a problems for a sole trader dealing in cash but at scale it's a very different story and is far more expensive than card transactions.

Strumms

Mean Laqueefa wrote: »

The diggers aka Kavanaghs in glasnevin is always packed of locals and toursits dont accept card. They dont loose business either, no Tv's or music either, the bar still has saloon doors

That’s the pub I was talking about great pub owned by a lovely family, proper nice and friendly ‘social ‘ atmosphere.

Sleeper12

Ally Dick wrote:

Wow. That's so stupid

Why? It reduces the amount cash on the premises & reduces the amount of cash lodged to the bank.

54and56 wrote:

1. Security, you need a secure office access safe etc.

Every pub that accepts cards needs this too

54and56 wrote:

2. Your insurance will be higher.

54and56 wrote:

3. You have to pay someone to count the cash and balance the till Vs the Z reports etc.

Machines count the cash not humans.

54and56 wrote:

4. You're far more open to employee theft.

Again every pub that accepts cards also has cash & has the same risk

The only way any of the points above come into effect is if comparing a cashless pub to a card less pub. If a pub has cards and cash then none of the point above are relavent.

I can't speak for City centre pubs but most local suburban pubs change cheques throughout the day and this reduces the amount of cash on the premises. It also reduces the amount of bank fees as less cash is lodged.

Again its owed by an accountant & he is there daily. I'd imagine he's crunched the numbers & has decided cards cost more than any business lost. This fact seems to be proven in that it's by far the busiest pub for miles around. Far busier than other local pubs that do actually accept cards.

Other pubs in the area you'd rarely see anyone pay by card unless paying for food. The cedars, the Raheny Inn, the Manhattan, the watermill. All take cards yet rarely do you see cards being used. The more I think about it the more I realise that I rarely see cards being used to buy drinks in most pubs.

I think cards must be a city centre thing and as they are robbing you blind anyway they can afford the card fees.

fritzelly

Takes cheques and not cards because of fees?
What's a cheque cost these days... 50c each?

dartboardio

To get around the local Chinese not taking card, I make a collection order on just eat and pay by card. Problem sorted!

Oh and as a pp said, a business that accepts card does not mean its legit. Anyone could buy or rent a card machine and link it to their bank account, hey presto, you now look more 'trustworthy' than the others.

I would prefer if everywhere was more cash based, don't get me wrong im a serial card user and could use my card for as little as a lollipop, out of convenience or time, although cash often feels more reliable, just incase Google pay is down, or there's an issue with your card.

For example, if I go away on holidays, I know my card is going to work perfectly fine but I like to bring more cash incase I lose it. I know its risky bringing cash but at least you can put different amounts in different areas, where as if you lose that little plastic card, you're ****ed until you get home.

Sleeper12

fritzelly wrote:

Takes cheques and not cards because of fees? What's a cheque cost these days... 50c each?

Cashing a cheque for 500 euros and paying 50c bank fees is terrific value. I've seen them cash cheques for over 1k. They cash so many cheques that they don't have enough cash. The punters have to come back a day or few days later to collect the cash. I think most local pubs operate this way. I can see in the city centre that they wouldn't do this

Sleeper12

dartboardio wrote:

To get around the local Chinese not taking card, I make a collection order on just eat and pay by card. Problem sorted!

Funny thing is that the take away pays a higher fee to just eat than if they took a card payment directly

fritzelly

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Cashing a cheque for 500 euros and paying 50c bank fees is terrific value. I've seen them cash cheques for over 1k. They cash so many cheques that they don't have enough cash. The punters have to come back a day or few days later to collect the cash. I think most local pubs operate this way. I can see in the city centre that they wouldn't do this

Casting cheques for that much in a bar is not suspicious at all...
Don't take card payments... hmmm

Berserker5

Everyone creams a bitvoff the top or worse ime

The vat is taken very seriously as its not your money as I discovered

Sleeper12

fritzelly wrote:

Casting cheques for that much in a bar is not suspicious at all... Don't take card payments... hmmm

A huge proportion of people don't have a bank account. They rely on local businesses to cash their cheques.

People with bank accounts can lodge cheques into their credit card account, mortgage account etc.

54and56

Sleeper12 wrote: »

A huge proportion of people don't have a bank account.

:-)

54and56

54and56 wrote: »

:-)

Bertie famously claimed he had no bank account, he always paid cash for his sweat n sour and the short,back’n sides.

54and56

Dav010 wrote: »

Bertie famously claimed he had no bank account, he always paid cash for his sweat n sour and the short,back’n sides.

QED

Have a good week everybody.

Sleeper12

Dav010 wrote:

Bertie famously claimed he had no bank account, he always paid cash for his sweat n sour and the short,back’n sides.

His local pub must have a cashing his pay cheque

realitykeeper

A lot of people prefer to use cash and only use a credit card if they have to buy something online. It is unreasonable to expect elderly people to go cashless when they have used cash all their lives. Besides, not everyone trusts the banks anymore given that farce a decade ago when senior bondholders were given assurances that in a bankruptcy situation, they would be prioritized over depositors. Added to that, if banks are ever again in danger of bankruptcy, there is now a bail-in provision, in other words depositors money is not safe, at least not above 100k but a lot of people do not trust them with even smaller amounts so some might prefer to deposit cash in companies with vaults and proper security systems. Credit cards are not everyone`s cup of tea.

blueshade

realitykeeper wrote: »

A lot of people prefer to use cash and only use a credit card if they have to buy something online. It is unreasonable to expect elderly people to go cashless when they have used cash all their lives. Besides, not everyone trusts the banks anymore given that farce a decade ago when senior bondholders were given assurances that in a bankruptcy situation, they would be prioritized over depositors. Added to that, if banks are ever again in danger of bankruptcy, there is now a bail-in provision, in other words depositors money is not safe, at least not above 100k but a lot of people do not trust them with even smaller amounts so some might prefer to deposit cash in companies with vaults and proper security systems. Credit cards are not everyone`s cup of tea.

Exactly. I see so many people using cards to pay for a cup of coffee and other very small purchases, it's ridiculous, each to their own though. There was a time when shops would be so delighted to get a cash sale and if it was a large purchase like furniture you could get a serious discount. Now in some places they'd look at you like a leper when you use cash.

Sleeper12

I agree with the post above about expecting older folk to use cards. My own mother is mid to late 80s. She has a laptop that she can turn on and search for old movies etc. She can log in online to her bank accounts. It took us months to teach her how to login. She was able to use online banking and that's pretty good for someone pushing 90. Now her bank has introduced a system where they text out a different login code each time someone tries to login their account. Not unlike the code they text out when using your card online. Here's the thing, she doesn't know how to use a mobile phone. She doesn't want to use a mobile phone. Now as a result of this "wonderful" security step they have added, she can no longer use Internet banking. My sister has begged the bank to make an exception as my mother has never owned a mobile phone, or at least never used one when we bought her one. They refuse to send her a code via email even!

This is progress I'm told

blueshade

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I agree with the post above about expecting older folk to use cards. My own mother is mid to late 80s. She has a laptop that she can turn on and search for old movies etc. She can log in online to her bank accounts. It took us months to teach her how to login. She was able to use online banking and that's pretty good for someone pushing 90. Now her bank has introduced a system where they text out a different login code each time someone tries to login their account. Not unlike the code they text out when using your card online. Here's the thing, she doesn't know how to use a mobile phone. She doesn't want to use a mobile phone. Now as a result of this "wonderful" security step they have added, she can no longer use Internet banking. My sister has begged the bank to make an exception as my mother has never owned a mobile phone, or at least never used one when we bought her one. They refuse to send her a code via email even!

This is progress I'm told

They could give her a Card Reader, that might be easier for her to use. Something to think about.

Sleeper12

blueshade wrote:

They could give her a Card Reader, that might be easier for her to use. Something to think about.

What's a card reader? That's a new one on me

blueshade

Sleeper12 wrote: »

What's a card reader? That's a new one on me

This is the aib one, I'd say other banks have them too.

https://aib.ie/help-and-guidance/aib-card-reader-and-code-card-faqs

Sleeper12

blueshade wrote:

This is the aib one, I'd say other banks have them too.

She's PTSB but I'll look into it. Thanks for that

marieholmfan

Sleeper12 wrote: »

A huge proportion of people don't have a bank account. They rely on local businesses to cash their cheques.

People with bank accounts can lodge cheques into their credit card account, mortgage account etc.

There's about three and a half million adults in the Republic and ten years ago there was 100,000 people with no bank account (certainly less now).


That's about 3%.

marieholmfan

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I agree with the post above about expecting older folk to use cards. My own mother is mid to late 80s. She has a laptop that she can turn on and search for old movies etc. She can log in online to her bank accounts. It took us months to teach her how to login. She was able to use online banking and that's pretty good for someone pushing 90. Now her bank has introduced a system where they text out a different login code each time someone tries to login their account. Not unlike the code they text out when using your card online. Here's the thing, she doesn't know how to use a mobile phone. She doesn't want to use a mobile phone. Now as a result of this "wonderful" security step they have added, she can no longer use Internet banking. My sister has begged the bank to make an exception as my mother has never owned a mobile phone, or at least never used one when we bought her one. They refuse to send her a code via email even!

This is progress I'm told

With the Ulster Bank you can get a little machine that looks like a calculator. You put your card into it and it generates the code.

Ninthlife

Whether its a cash only business or electronic payments, sale suppression happens in both. There are electronic point of sale software packages available that have 'zappers' or other in built methods that certain sales although to the customer look fine actually dont register in the system as a sale.

Same with hairdressers, take aways. Several appointment or order books may exist but only one is used to record taxable income.

MarkY91

We t into a local gym supplement shop recently and the guy really insisted on using card even though I had the cash in my hand.

Very strange, never experienced that before. I usually pay by card but with such a shop, I expected them to be cash only, especially for a purchase of about €10.

All my local centras etc impose the €10 minimum spend in order to use card.

freshpopcorn

MarkY91 wrote: »

We t into a local gym supplement shop recently and the guy really insisted on using card even though I had the cash in my hand.

Very strange, never experienced that before. I usually pay by card but with such a shop, I expected them to be cash only, especially for a purchase of about €10.

All my local centras etc impose the €10 minimum spend in order to use card.

Stuck for change or he might have being wary of dud notes!

MarkY91

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Stuck for change or he might have being wary of dud notes!

Possibly. He would have accepted by cash but he made it clear that he prefers card. He was really nice and all. Just I found it weird as it would usually be cash being preferred.

gerrybbadd

Went into a little coffee shop the other day in Ballina and it was packed out, quite a queue in it.

A lady got up to pay, and wanted to use her phone to tap a card machine, but the lad behind the counter apologised, saying he had no card facilities whatsoever as they hadn't a phone line.

Myself and 3 others left the queue at that point.