Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

El_Duderino 09

vectra wrote: »

Huhh?
What cheating engine?

Are we still pretending last year's ferrari engine was legit?

You know the cheating engine they're referring to.

quokula

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Are we still pretending last year's ferrari engine was legit?

You know the cheating engine they're referring to.

Can you explain what rule the engine broke and what evidence there is of this?

El_Duderino 09

quokula wrote: »

Can you explain what rule the engine broke and what evidence there is of this?

Nope. And you wouldn't know if I made up some rules.

The FIA smudged it all over to make sure it's customer saved face. We all know what happened. And we all know the result was ferrari having to use an engine which is compliant with the rules this year - and significantly slower.

afatbollix

quokula wrote: »

Can you explain what rule the engine broke and what evidence there is of this?

Just to turn the table.

Explain why they had to change the engine and have been off the pace since?

vectra

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Are we still pretending last year's ferrari engine was legit?

You know the cheating engine they're referring to.

No, I don't know actually,
Can you show me which one and what cheating was done?

quokula wrote: »

Can you explain what rule the engine broke and what evidence there is of this?

This ^^

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Nope. And you wouldn't know if I made up some rules.

The FIA smudged it all over to make sure it's customer saved face. We all know what happened. And we all know the result was ferrari having to use an engine which is compliant with the rules this year - and significantly slower.

But why make up rules?
Rules are rules,!


Not entirely correct,
Nothing was "smudged over"
But be fair about it, how would Mercedes like if they were doing something not entirely within the guidelines and were pulled over it, do you think they would gladly be in favor of the FIA supplying all other teams with details of their engine?

El_Duderino 09

vectra wrote: »

No, I don't know actually,
Can you show me which one and what cheating was done?



This ^^



But why make up rules?
Rules are rules,!


Not entirely correct,
Nothing was "smudged over"
But be fair about it, how would Mercedes like if they were doing something not entirely within the guidelines and were pulled over it, do you think they would gladly be in favor of the FIA supplying all other teams with details of their engine?

What's the point? You're just arguing for he sake of it. "Rules are rules,!". Be serious. It's an FIA investigation, not a court of law. We all know what heppened.

Just as a matter of interest, why do you think Ferrai decided to run an inferior engine this year?

BikeRacer

quokula wrote: »

Can you explain what rule the engine broke and what evidence there is of this?

You ignored it the first time I asked, so I'll ask again:

Do you think their engine performance going off a cliff the second the FIA introduced a second encrypted fuel flow sensor is a coincidence?

Frank Bullitt

Read on Twitter that the FIA want to clamp down on the crazy modes used in qualy.

If true, listen closely and you will hear Toto screaming.

*Yup, Autosport are running the story now, a ban from Belgium onwards.

PukkaStukka

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Nope. And you wouldn't know if I made up some rules.

The FIA smudged it all over to make sure it's customer saved face. We all know what happened. And we all know the result was Ferrari having to use an engine which is compliant with the rules this year - and significantly slower.

You're speculating like everyone else is about last years settlement between the FIA and Ferrari which was confidential. Nobody other than the parties involved know the real deal. You also don't know what other trickery everyone else is up to and its highly likely there's plenty of it. For example, Mercedes admitted they made very big engine gains over the winter, yet they were whinging 12 months ago that nobody should be making big gains like Ferrari did after years of the running same regs; and instead claimed there should be performance convergence with the engines.

In that context, the FIA would do well to look very closely as what Merecedes are up to, particularly if they can find 0.6 seconds of extra spank between Q2 and Q3, when as they put it, everyone should be pretty close now on engine performance.

recyclebin

Is this qualy mode, along with a load of other engine modes, not just a setting that can be turned on or off in the menus from the steering wheel?

Frank Bullitt

recyclebin wrote: »

Is this qualy mode, along with a load of other engine modes, not just a setting that can be turned on or off in the menus from the steering wheel?

This is what I found.

The rule being considered would force teams to use a single engine mode throughout a race weekend.

This would effectively ban power boosts used in qualifying because teams could not afford to run their engines at that level of performance all the time without causing reliability problems.

vectra

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

What's the point? You're just arguing for he sake of it. "Rules are rules,!". Be serious. It's an FIA investigation, not a court of law. We all know what heppened.

Just as a matter of interest, why do you think Ferrai decided to run an inferior engine this year?

Excuse me?
You are the one that said they Cheated with their engine
Nobody on the grid still know for sure what they were or were not doing.
I asked you to show me what evidence you might have to back up this cheating you talk about.

Ferrari running an inferior engine this year?
Not entirely correct either.
Hungary 2019
4 16 Monaco Charles Leclerc Ferrari 1:16.337 1:15.792 1:15.043 4
5 5 Germany Sebastian Vettel Ferrari 1:16.452 1:15.885 1:15.071 5

Hungary 2020
5 5 Germany Sebastian Vettel Ferrari 1:15.455 1:15.131 1:14.774 5
6 16 Monaco Charles Leclerc Ferrari 1:15.793 1:15.006 1:14.817 6

Anjobe

Inquitus wrote: »

What do we think about the proposal to ban Qually Mode for engines from Spa in a few of weeks time? I am surprised F1 can do something like that so quickly with no input from the teams. I assume Mercedes would lose the most but all engine manufacturers have a Qually Mode, so everyone will take a step backwards, just some steps will be smaller than others!



https://www.racefans.net/2020/08/13/why-the-fia-told-teams-it-will-ban-quali-modes-after-this-weekends-race/

vectra wrote: »

Excuse me?
You are the one that said they Cheated with their engine
Nobody on the grid still know for sure what they were or were not doing.
I asked you to show me what evidence you might have to back up this cheating you talk about.

Ferrari running an inferior engine this year?
Not entirely correct either.
Hungary 2019
4 16 Monaco Charles Leclerc Ferrari 1:16.337 1:15.792 1:15.043 4
5 5 Germany Sebastian Vettel Ferrari 1:16.452 1:15.885 1:15.071 5

Hungary 2020
5 5 Germany Sebastian Vettel Ferrari 1:15.455 1:15.131 1:14.774 5
6 16 Monaco Charles Leclerc Ferrari 1:15.793 1:15.006 1:14.817 6

According to the Race Fans article quoted there Ferrari themselves have admitted their engine is down on power due to the additional fuel flow sensor in use this year. If the performance drops due to a device intended to ensure that the engine operates within the regulations, that is a pretty good indication that it wasn’t operating within the regulations before. It doesn’t really matter that the FIA couldn’t prove the engine was cheating, as the F1 technical regulations state that it is the duty of the competitor to be able to prove that their car is compliant at all times, and Ferrari clearly were not able to do that.

vectra

Anjobe wrote: »

According to the Race Fans article quoted there Ferrari themselves have admitted their engine is down on power due to the additional fuel flow sensor in use this year. If the performance drops due to a device intended to ensure that the engine operates within the regulations, that is a pretty good indication that it wasn’t operating within the regulations before. It doesn’t really matter that the FIA couldn’t prove the engine was cheating, as the F1 technical regulations state that it is the duty of the competitor to be able to prove that their car is compliant at all times, and Ferrari clearly were not able to do that.

So, The FIA couldn't prove any cheating was being done.
Ferrari couldn't prove they were not.

so nil all.
There is no denying their cars are slower this year in most circuits,
But I still see no evidence of the said "Cheating"
After all there is a big difference in outright cheating and exploiting a loophole in the regs, which every team has used in the history of the sport I am sure.

Joeface

And odd question if the Car is limited to 106kg of fuel for the race ,why is the fuel flow limited . Shouldn't that be on the teams to make it last for the race.

I am sure I could Google the answer but I'm already here .

mickdw

Joeface wrote: »

And odd question if the Car is limited to 106kg of fuel for the race ,why is the fuel flow limited . Shouldn't that be on the teams to make it last for the race.

I am sure I could Google the answer but I'm already here .

I always said they should allow them use the fuel as they wished as long as they only used the max allowance.
I think it is probably an attempt to restrict further development directions where teams would learn to produce almost unlimited amounts of power where needed for overtaking etc with long periods of fuel saving.
They should let them at it imo.

mickdw

recyclebin wrote: »

Is this qualy mode, along with a load of other engine modes, not just a setting that can be turned on or off in the menus from the steering wheel?

If they enforce a single engine mode, i would still suggest that mercedes may have the overall performance to be able to go weekend long at a higher setting than everyone else. Quali mode is a very small part of their performance.
Very hard to enforce this too.
Teams will find a way to run with quali mode as the set mode with alternative hidden means of restricting performance and engine wear throughout the race whether that be fully in the drivers cintrol or whatever.
Personally, i believe mercedes are doing something very smart around battery energy this year. Fuel flow is arguably tightly controlled now.

El_Duderino 09

vectra wrote: »

Excuse me?
You are the one that said they Cheated with their engine
Nobody on the grid still know for sure what they were or were not doing.
I asked you to show me what evidence you might have to back up this cheating you talk about.

Ferrari running an inferior engine this year?
Not entirely correct either.
Hungary 2019
4 16 Monaco Charles Leclerc Ferrari 1:16.337 1:15.792 1:15.043 4
5 5 Germany Sebastian Vettel Ferrari 1:16.452 1:15.885 1:15.071 5

Hungary 2020
5 5 Germany Sebastian Vettel Ferrari 1:15.455 1:15.131 1:14.774 5
6 16 Monaco Charles Leclerc Ferrari 1:15.793 1:15.006 1:14.817 6

Yeah excuse you. If you think the ferrari engine last year was legit and this year's engine isn't inferior to last year's engine, then you're arguing for the sake of arguing.

But sure, you know all this. You're just prete ding you don't know what everyone knows - ferrari was cheating last year and they FIA investigated and did a smudge job to avoid embarrassing a customer. Ferrari (plus haas and alfa) are now not using the cheating engine and the engine is slower as a result.

What point are you trying to make by comparing to last year's times? The comparisons to last year isn't just comparing the engines, it's comparing the entire car. But you know that too - arguing for the sake of it.

quokula

Sure who needs evidence or facts when "everyone just knows"

El_Duderino 09

mickdw wrote: »

I always said they should allow them use the fuel as they wished as long as they only used the max allowance.
I think it is probably an attempt to restrict further development directions where teams would learn to produce almost unlimited amounts of power where needed for overtaking etc with long periods of fuel saving.
They should let them at it imo.

I think they're afraid of appearing to be environmentally unfriendly, gas guzzling motor cars. Similar with refueling. But I think they completely miss the point.

They could be advertising the technology they're developing and using and trumpeting the ways that technology is used in the real world. They don't have to use the term "thermal efficiency" but they could make a big song and dance about the ways they ways f1 technologies are used in road cars and wherever else, making things more efficient and reducing the need for fossil fuels.

Instead they plant trees at the factory and apologise for using petrol in the cars, ban refuelling and limit fuel consumption.

vectra

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah excuse you. If you think the ferrari engine last year was legit and this year's engine isn't inferior to last year's engine, then you're arguing for the sake of arguing.

But sure, you know all this. You're just prete ding you don't know what everyone knows - ferrari was cheating last year and they FIA investigated and did a smudge job to avoid embarrassing a customer. Ferrari (plus haas and alfa) are now not using the cheating engine and the engine is slower as a result.

What point are you trying to make by comparing to last year's times? The comparisons to last year isn't just comparing the engines, it's comparing the entire car. But you know that too - arguing for the sake of it.

Why do you continue to evade my request to show us some evidence you have that Ferrari cheated?

PukkaStukka

vectra wrote: »

Why do you continue to evade my request to show us some evidence you have that Ferrari cheated?

Exactly!

The FIA have come down monstrously hard on cheating in the past. A few examples:

• Tyrrell thrown own of the 84 championship over illegal ballasting / running underweight. Thrown out of that championship and all points docked.
  
• BAR Honda running underweight with a concentric fuel tanks in 2005 - disqualification
  
• McLaren Spygate: $100m fine and thrown out of the championship.

But hey, lets not let this spoil the narrative of those who believe they know everything on the back of supposition, social media, internet forums et all. We all know what a little knowledge is!

duploelabs

quokula wrote: »

Sure who needs evidence or facts when "everyone just knows"

According to some posters here, following me posting a video on Alonso's driving style, know better than the video's producer, who holds the track record for Brands Hatch

pjohnson

PukkaStukka wrote: »

Exactly!

The FIA have come down monstrously hard on cheating in the past. A few examples:

• Tyrrell thrown own of the 84 championship over illegal ballasting / running underweight. Thrown out of that championship and all points docked.
  
• BAR Honda running underweight with a concentric fuel tanks in 2005 - disqualification
  
• McLaren Spygate: $100m fine and thrown out of the championship.

But hey, lets not let this spoil the narrative of those who believe they know everything on the back of supposition, social media, internet forums et all. We all know what a little knowledge is!

That poster has previously disagreed with Team Principals and actual drivers due to there "knowledge" and what "everyone* knows". Thank jaysus more are wising up.



*everyone is often a odd viewpoint that involves ignoring the vast majority of experts AND fans.

johnnysmack

pjohnson wrote: »

That poster has previously disagreed with Team Principals and actual drivers due to there "knowledge" and what "everyone* knows". Thank jaysus more are wising up.



*everyone is often a odd viewpoint that involves ignoring the vast majority of experts AND fans.

Guys I don't know why you even engage with him in any way, just ignore.

pyramuid man

johnnysmack wrote: »

Guys I don't know why you even engage with him in any way, just ignore.

Exactly. Dont feed the troll...

El_Duderino 09

vectra wrote: »

Why do you continue to evade my request to show us some evidence you have that Ferrari cheated?

I told you earlier that I don't have evidence nor can I site the rule number which was broken. That's because the FIA smudged it all over with the agreement it reached with Ferrari to avoid publicly finding them guilty of cheating.

Now, will you answer why ferrari has chosen to go with a less fast engine this year if last year's engine wasn't cheating? Thanks.

vectra

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I told you earlier that I don't have evidence nor can I site the rule number which was broken. That's because the FIA smudged it all over with the agreement it reached with Ferrari to avoid publicly finding them guilty of cheating.

Now, will you answer why ferrari has chosen to go with a less fast engine this year if last year's engine wasn't cheating? Thanks.

I still see no clear evidence of cheating, you are going on what you are reading and hearing, which in other words is "Hearsay"

El_Duderino 09

vectra wrote: »

I still see no clear evidence of cheating, you are going on what you are reading and hearing, which in other words is "Hearsay"

OK

Now, will you answer why ferrari has chosen to go with a less fast engine this year if last year's engine wasn't cheating? Thanks.

vectra

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

OK

Now, will you answer why ferrari has chosen to go with a less fast engine this year if last year's engine wasn't cheating? Thanks.

Where did I say there engine was not slower this year?

As for your insistent cheating accusation.

Hypothetically speaking, if someone from Ferrari were scouring forums looking for know all's like you that consistently accuse them of cheating, and issued with an order to appear in court to prove them guilty, as you are spreading slanderous rumors which is also defamatory against their institution. How do you think you would fare out in court when you would answer the question about them cheating with you "Sure everyone knows it" ?

Very easy to sit behind a keyboard and make all sorts of accusations. But as I said, with no evidence, everything you say about their "cheating" as you call it, means nothing.
I never said they were not cheating, I never said they ( or every other team for that matter ) bend the rules and find loopholes to exploit until the said loopholes are closed.