Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

vectra

mickdw wrote: »

Yep id agree. Foolish for mercedes if they are running something dodgy as it would put a large cloud over all their success and Hamiltons entire career also.

Sure isn't that cloud there already,
Take the clear advantage that car has over the rest of the pack away, and you can be assured he wouldn't have so many wins/titles now.

skipper_G

vectra wrote: »

Honda or Merc?
https://thejudge13.com/2020/08/18/fia-instigates-full-investigation-on-all-teams-cheating-ferrari-might-save-their-season/?fbclid=IwAR176NbsRqD75IjMLvqeD81v0eolkGi2zBOf8e4iesEMvHaBp8jqnIXe7yI

I can't find a single reputable news organisation reporting anything about this. There was a 'report' on one of the German rags, the one that presents rumour as fact on a regular basis that this person on the internet seems to have based his story on. Smells like BS to me and this FIA request is more likely related to the proposed ban on engine qualy modes and how they are going to police that.

Even still, ironic to see somebody whom engaged in pages and pages of logic somersaulting to defend Ferrari amid accusations of cheating, now point the finger at Mercedes

Anjobe

vectra wrote: »

Sure isn't that cloud there already,
Take the clear advantage that car has over the rest of the pack away, and you can be assured he wouldn't have so many wins/titles now.

A statement that could apply to almost all WDC winners, especially those who have won successive championships with the same team.

skipper_G wrote: »

Even still, ironic to see somebody whom engaged in pages and pages of logic somersaulting to defend Ferrari amid accusations of cheating, now point the finger at Mercedes

...and thanking a post that was supporting the notion of Ferrari cheating too.:rolleyes:

recyclebin

Williams has been sold to investors. Sad to see that Frank has had to sell up, but it should secure the teams future and bring in some money to improve the car.

https://www.williamsf1.com/news/2020/08/williams-racing-is-acquired-by-dorilton-capital

recyclebin

I don't think any teams or drivers have pointed fingers about cheating towards Mercedes like the way they did towards Ferrari. A lot of the drivers were even vocal about Ferraris engine. There doesn't seem to be any legitimate theories about what Mercedes are doing to be so much faster.

GarIT

recyclebin wrote: »

Williams has been sold to investors. Sad to see that Frank has had to sell up, but it should secure the teams future and bring in some money to improve the car.

https://www.williamsf1.com/news/2020/08/williams-racing-is-acquired-by-dorilton-capital

It's a tradegy what Claire did to the team.

I've edited out the second bit, was a bit harsh.

ScrubsfanChris

GarIT wrote: »

It's a tradegy what Claire did to them. Frank really didn't deserve to have such a failure as her for a daughter.

AMKC

ELM327 wrote: »

They still havent reached the power levels that those insane turbo engines ran in quali mode. Wasnt the peak something like 1100hp?

GarIT wrote: »

It's a tradegy what Claire did to them. Frank really didn't deserve to have such a failure as her for a daughter.

That's very harsh. How do you know any of it was Claire's fault? She probably just done what her father wanted and asked her to do. Maybe William's would still be in this position no matter who was there in charge. I do that blame Claire one bit. She done the best she could do under the circumstances and William's is a lot smaller than Mercedes, Ferrari and even Renault so they have a lot less resources and funding to use and as you know it must be very hard to get it right in F1 as it can change very fast.
I am delighted to see William's secure an investor do and hopefully they have more success in the future. 2012 is the last time they won a race or had a podium.

ELM327

Hopefully they keep the name and heritage and locations, and the money influx can drive williams towards the front of the grid.
Russell has been driving the wheels off that boat so far this year. Maybe now they can get a good second driver as opposed to the paycheck that is latifi

Infoanon

GarIT wrote: »

It's a tradegy what Claire did to them. Frank really didn't deserve to have such a failure as her for a daughter.

Totally unnecessary to make such a nasty comment.

Do you know the history behind the decline of Williams ?

ELM327

AMKC wrote: »

That's very harsh. How do you know any of it was Claire's fault? She probably just done what her father wanted and asked her to do. Maybe William's would still be in this position no matter who was there in charge. I do that blame Claire one bit. She done the best she could do under the circumstances and William's is a lot smaller than Mercedes, Ferrari and even Renault so they have a lot less resources and funding to use and as you know it must be very hard to get it right in F1 as it can change very fast.
I am delighted to see William's secure an investor do and hopefully they have more success in the future. 2012 is the last time they won a race or had a podium.

I agree, why have you quoted me there?

duploelabs

GarIT wrote: »

It's a tradegy what Claire did to them. Frank really didn't deserve to have such a failure as her for a daughter.

You are obviously not a parent

PukkaStukka

GarIT wrote: »

It's a tradegy what Claire did to them. Frank really didn't deserve to have such a failure as her for a daughter.

Harsh. But it was Frank's decision to give her the team over her brother Jonathan who was tipped by many to be the more capable of his successors.

vectra

skipper_G wrote: »

Even still, ironic to see somebody whom engaged in pages and pages of logic somersaulting to defend Ferrari amid accusations of cheating, now point the finger at Mercedes

Pointing the finger?
Where exactly did I do that?
I could have sworn I ASKED "Merc or Honda?"
Do you really think it might be Renault or Ferrari that has made huge gains over the winter?

Anjobe wrote: »

...and thanking a post that was supporting the notion of Ferrari cheating too.:rolleyes:

And Mr. Startar$e
Which post exactly are you referring to?

Anjobe

mickdw wrote: »

I find it funny that mercedes were pretty certain that ferrari were cheating from looking at the data last year and basically saying that the power difference is so big that there must be more energy going in than allowable. To be fair, they were correct. Now this year mercedes have tsken a massive step in engine performance arguably beyond where ferrari were so is it even possible that they are legal - i doubt it.

tigerboon wrote: »

When they say they're "pretty certain ", what they mean is they're 99.9% certain. These guys are the best engineers out there. This year's merc is almost certainly illegal only nobody's figured out what they're up to.
One year back when Audi and Peugeot were competing at Le Mans, the Peugeot was a couple of seconds a lap quicker all through practice and qualifiers. Audi engineers went through their design and build the day before the race. They came to the conclusion that their car was perfect to the regulations and that Peugeot were running with revs too high. They told their drivers to just drive as planned as they reckoned the Peugeots wouldn't go the distance. They were right. The point is that the engineers know what can be done to any set of rules
In F1 2020 it's hard to believe only Mercedes can build a regulations perfect engine on regulations that have been there for a number of years.

vectra wrote: »

And Mr. Startar$e
Which post exactly are you referring to?

Don't you just love the intelligent and respectful standard of discussion here?

El_Duderino 09

Ultimately we don't know how well Williams was run under Claire. She always came across as a nice person and a pleasure to deal with in business - Frank didn't come across as an easy person to deal with and I think it would have been much better for the team if she was a bit less nice and a bit more demanding. But, she might have been as ruthless as the father behind closed doors, but I don't see her exacting the same high standards as Frank and Patrick Head.

Charlie-Bravo

Claire Williams and Paddy Lowe on Netflix's Drive to Survive is priceless. That is all.

recyclebin

GarIT wrote: »

It's a tradegy what Claire did to them. Frank really didn't deserve to have such a failure as her for a daughter.

The only tragedy is having people like you in this forum. Keep those kind of comments for Facebook or twitter.

All the small independent teams have been taken over now except for Haas. You can't compete with the big car manufacturers or the guys with billionaire owners anymore. You can't blame Claire for Williams demise.

GarIT

Infoanon wrote: »

Totally unnecessary to make such a nasty comment.

Do you know the history behind the decline of Williams ?

Yes I've kept up with it. Claire is know for making stupid decisions and embarrassing herself.

Williams have been an organisational shambles for a few years, the responsibility for that is at the top of the chain.

GarIT

astrofluff wrote: »

Claire Williams and Paddy Lowe on Netflix's Drive to Survive is priceless. That is all.

Especially the bit where she says something like she would bankrupt or close Williams before selling it.

AMKC

ELM327 wrote: »

I agree, why have you quoted me there?

My mistake. I was going to reply to your post at another time about that engines but decided to leave it for someone else who was more sure of it. I must have multi quated you. I did not even realise I had done that untill I seen your post just now and went looked back at my post.

H3llR4iser

Gintonious wrote: »

Agreed.

I also find it funny that a company like Merc and Renault claim they need F1 to be more road relevant in order for them to compete, when the world of motoring is drastically switching to electric (Tesla are the most valuable car company in the world right now, even more so than Ford), and for that we have FE, with a lot of manufacturers competing in there (Porsche, Jag, Audi etc)

It's not that simple; The battery powered EV model is based on the owner being able to charge at home, which is a stupendously suburban-US centric concept. Just go to continental Europe and it all falls apart as most people live in apartments, often built after WWII, with no parking facilities whatsoever - they have to quite literally abandon the car at the side of the street. Same applies to Latin America and Asia.

On top of that, many countries - even advanced industrial economies - don't have easy access to energy and as a result, they have high prices and/or severe power limitations. Take Italy for example: each household is limited to draw a maximum of 3kW-h from the power grid at any given time. The moment you go over, the meter switch pops out. For reference, in Ireland that limit is 12 kW-h.

As Europe and Asia based international companies Mercedes, Renault and Honda are perfectly aware of all of the above, and of the importance that hybrid technology will have until a viable alternative to plug-in batteries is found for electric vehicles. Looking at it this way, it becomes clear why, while dipping their toes into Formula E, their main focus will remain Formula one for quite some time.

flazio

Her title has always been deputy principal so I would imagine that Frank still had the final say on this sale.

ELM327

H3llR4iser wrote: »

It's not that simple; The battery powered EV model is based on the owner being able to charge at home, which is a stupendously suburban-US centric concept. Just go to continental Europe and it all falls apart as most people live in apartments, often built after WWII, with no parking facilities whatsoever - they have to quite literally abandon the car at the side of the street. Same applies to Latin America and Asia.

On top of that, many countries - even advanced industrial economies - don't have easy access to energy and as a result, they have high prices and/or severe power limitations. Take Italy for example: each household is limited to draw a maximum of 3kW-h from the power grid at any given time. The moment you go over, the meter switch pops out. For reference, in Ireland that limit is 12 kW-h.

As Europe and Asia based international companies Mercedes, Renault and Honda are perfectly aware of all of the above, and of the importance that hybrid technology will have until a viable alternative to plug-in batteries is found for electric vehicles. Looking at it this way, it becomes clear why, while dipping their toes into Formula E, their main focus will remain Formula one for quite some time.

OT: The "limit" in Ireland is actually 13kW. But it's a soft limit, and you can pay more for higher. A lot of domestic houses on or near farms have 22kW.

Robbo

LIGHTNING wrote: »

They their lifespan was generally measured in laps. I remember reading one F1 drivers book and he said they went through a dozen engines on one test day.

Not forgetting the gallons and gallons of toluene.

Infoanon

GarIT wrote: »

Especially the bit where she says something like she would bankrupt or close Williams before selling it.

"says something like" -please at least deal in facts

Your comments about Claire Williams was not unacceptable

pjohnson

I think once Ferrari went through 6 engines in two days in the early 00's. Badoer had three fail at Fiorano while Burti (one) and Barrichello (two) had issues at a larger multi-team test.

quokula

pjohnson wrote: »

I think once Ferrari went through 6 engines in two days in the early 00's. Badoer had three fail at Fiorano while Burti (one) and Barrichello (two) had issues at a larger multi-team test.

Which, as wasteful as that sounds / was, the teams still managed to do that on a fraction of a budget that the current Formula requires. 6 simple, cheap engines are more affordable than a single hyper complex wildly expensive engine.

For some perspective, Williams budget to barely hang on to the back of the grid is three times what their budget was the last time they won the world title in 97. McLaren's current budget is about twice what it was when they won the title in 2008, a time when F1 was supposedly at peak extravagance just before the financial crash.



You can see a trend of increasing costs through the 90s as F1 became more of a global sport, a levelling off in the mid 2000s as cost cutting measures and then the V8s came in, then a rapid rise again as R&D began to really ramp up in the years leading up to the 2014 formula, which has only gotten worse with time - and we've seen a clear performance drop from Williams as their budget as failed to keep pace.

afatbollix

Anyone seen how much each place in the constructors champ is worth in the new Concorde agreement?

It was about 50 million for a back of the grid team I wonder what it will be in 2022

vectra

tigerboon wrote: »

When they say they're "pretty certain ", what they mean is they're 99.9% certain. These guys are the best engineers out there. This year's merc is almost certainly illegal only nobody's figured out what they're up to.
One year back when Audi and Peugeot were competing at Le Mans, the Peugeot was a couple of seconds a lap quicker all through practice and qualifiers. Audi engineers went through their design and build the day before the race. They came to the conclusion that their car was perfect to the regulations and that Peugeot were running with revs too high. They told their drivers to just drive as planned as they reckoned the Peugeots wouldn't go the distance. They were right. The point is that the engineers know what can be done to any set of rules
In F1 2020 it's hard to believe only Mercedes can build a regulations perfect engine on regulations that have been there for a number of years.

Ah,
It is amazing how a smartar$e can only see what suits them.
How about you read the part I made in bold which is exactly the reason I hit the like button.

mickdw wrote: »

I find it funny that mercedes were pretty certain that ferrari were cheating from looking at the data last year and basically saying that the power difference is so big that there must be more energy going in than allowable. To be fair, they were correct. Now this year mercedes have tsken a massive step in engine performance arguably beyond where ferrari were so is it even possible that they are legal - i doubt it..

And yet again, Mr. Smartar$e highlighted the part to suit himself.
Like to read the part I agreed with by any chance?

Anjobe wrote: »

Don't you just love the intelligent and respectful standard of discussion here?

Isn't it just. :rolleyes: