Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

Frank Bullitt

quokula wrote: »

I see that in the wake of Honda's exit, Renault are now beginning to call for the engine formula to be changed. Could this finally be the beginning of the end of this pitiful chapter of F1?



Finally people inside the sport starting to see what the majority of fans could see for the last 6 years.

A great video that kind of touches on the above. F1 is super fragile right now in terms of how fragile the business model is. And no sign of change at least until 2026...F1 has to kick itself up the arse.

El_Duderino 09

Gintonious wrote: »

A great video that kind of touches on the above. F1 is super fragile right now in terms of how fragile the business model is. And no sign of change at least until 2026...F1 has to kick itself up the arse.

Good chat. It's striking to hear that apart from Honda's win in Monza with Alpha, no other manufacturer has won with 2 teams in this engine formula. In other words the only teams to win a race have been Mercedes, ferrari and red bull (plus Gasley's very lucky win in monza). It's such an unhealthy state of competition.

It also shows that Ron Denis was right that you can only win the championship as a works team.

chicorytip

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You're not great at conversation.

In the meantime, I don't subscribe to the notion you invented, that cars have absolute limits such that a driver who isn't highly regarded like Gio, is getting the maximum pace and a faster driver wouldn't be able to get it to go any faster.

Look, it's a nonsense claim (regardless of what face-saving statement a team principal might have made). You only made it up because you don't like the fact that Kimi isn't very good anymore. It's a bit pitiful to see a grown adult have to stand over such a nonsense claim, but unless you take it back then, that's the position in which you've put yourself

I kinda wish he'd retire alright. Why does he still bother? Does the missus not want him hanging around the house?

El_Duderino 09

chicorytip wrote: »

I kinda wish he'd retire alright. Why does he still bother? Does the missus not want him hanging around the house?

It's a bit sad to see a former top driver diminished to the status he's currently at. I don't think anyone really rates Gio and Kimi is only keeping up with him this year. Equal in quali and Kimi slightly ahead on race finishes (in Gio's second season). Next year will probably see him in the same fight but this time with a rookie.

Ultimately, it's his reputation to do with what he pleases. I think when people reflect on his career they'll talk about the first half as being very good and the second half as coasting on the reputation built in the first half.

I think it's hard for some people to accept that a driver they like is now a pretty average/poor driver. This happened when Kubica came back. I think everyone wanted him to do well and earn a top seat. In reality he w\s a pay driver and was a half second off his rookie teammate in quail and similarly off the pace in the races. People made all kinds of excuses at the time like they said his teammate Russell was a top driver, he's not actually that far off the pace because reasons, Williams was screwing him and so on (Those reasons are being rehashed for Vettel at the moment too).

But then when the dust settles the reality sets in and now i think most people agree that Kubica was miles off the pace. He did great to ever come back into contention as a pay driver but ultimately he was a pay driver. You could only admire his determination to recover as much as he did but now i think people accept he's not good enough anymore. The same acceptance will happen with Kimi after he retires.

Man with broke phone

I think alot of people give far too much credit to how fast the drivers are these days. The route is pre planned by maths lads and computers, alot of the systems are computer assisted or coached beforehand.
The cars are either working perfect and going as they can or they are giing home for the night.

The car is the star of the show. The drivers are coached in acadamies from youth. Its an assembly line. The most marketable fella who has the best height weight ratio, who doesnt fold under pressure will get the drive once they are steadyand reliable.

There is very few drivers in F1 that wouldnt win the championship if they took over from Hamilton next year with Bottas as number 2, and there are very few drivers that would make Kimis car more than 100 or 200ths of a second faster.

Some drivers get better upgrades or first preference on strategy if they are running 2 but mostly there wouldnt be a whole lot between them all. Very well trained fast rich kids.

muckwarrior

Man with broke phone wrote: »

I think alot of people give far too much credit to how fast the drivers are these days. The route is pre planned by maths lads and computers, alot of the systems are computer assisted or coached beforehand.
The cars are either working perfect and going as they can or they are giing home for the night.

The car is the star of the show. The drivers are coached in acadamies from youth. Its an assembly line. The most marketable fella who has the best height weight ratio, who doesnt fold under pressure will get the drive once they are steadyand reliable.

There is very few drivers in F1 that wouldnt win the championship if they took over from Hamilton next year with Bottas as number 2, and there are very few drivers that would make Kimis car more than 100 or 200ths of a second faster.

Some drivers get better upgrades or first preference on strategy if they are running 2 but mostly there wouldnt be a whole lot between them all. Very well trained fast rich kids.

Then how do you explain drivers like Verstappen, and previously Alonso, consistently out-qualifying their team-mates by a half second or more?

Man with broke phone

muckwarrior wrote: »

Then how do you explain drivers like Verstappen, and previously Alonso, consistently out-qualifying their team-mates by a half second or more?

Sometimes there is an enigma but most of the time they are just the first drivers who get better upgrades/backroom/strategies or the other guy is rookie folding under the pressure.

skipper_G

Man with broke phone wrote: »

I think alot of people give far too much credit to how fast the drivers are these days. The route is pre planned by maths lads and computers, alot of the systems are computer assisted or coached beforehand.
The cars are either working perfect and going as they can or they are giing home for the night.

The car is the star of the show. The drivers are coached in acadamies from youth. Its an assembly line. The most marketable fella who has the best height weight ratio, who doesnt fold under pressure will get the drive once they are steadyand reliable.

There is very few drivers in F1 that wouldnt win the championship if they took over from Hamilton next year with Bottas as number 2, and there are very few drivers that would make Kimis car more than 100 or 200ths of a second faster.

Some drivers get better upgrades or first preference on strategy if they are running 2 but mostly there wouldnt be a whole lot between them all. Very well trained fast rich kids.

This reads like it was written by a Guardian journalist who's never seen a motor race in their life. I'm going to go ahead and disagree

Anjobe

skipper_G wrote: »

This reads like it was written by a Guardian journalist who's never seen a motor race in their life. I'm going to go ahead and disagree

A Guardian journalist? You insult the man, a Daily Mail journalist maybe...

GarIT

Man with broke phone wrote: »

Sometimes there is an enigma but most of the time they are just the first drivers who get better upgrades/backroom/strategies or the other guy is rookie folding under the pressure.

I've rarely heard more nonsense.

Sure the optimal lap is planned by computers but there are significant differences in driver skill in driving as the computer suggests. And computers aren't always accurate, they don't have accurate simulations of physics, close but not exact, especially with so many aero factors on the car.

skipper_G

Anjobe wrote: »

A Guardian journalist? You insult the man, a Daily Mail journalist maybe...

The Daily Mail has journalists ? :pac:

pjohnson

GarIT wrote: »

I've rarely heard more nonsense.

Sure the optimal lap is planned by computers but there are significant differences in driver skill in driving as the computer suggests. And computers aren't always accurate, they don't have accurate simulations of physics, close but not exact, especially with so many aero factors on the car.

Grosjean has on a few occasions over the years disagreed with simulated data and been proved right :pac:

AMKC

Should the FAI my mistake I meant FIA have done more to keep Honda in F1?

I would put this as a pole but it does not seem to be an option anymore.
Christian Horner was saying when Honda goes it will be the first time in like 50 years since F1 had only 3 engine suppliers which is not good.

AMKC

AMKC wrote: »

Should the FAI have done more to keep Honda in F1?

Still busy from the mess Delaney left.

AMKC

AMKC wrote: »

Christian Horner was saying when Honda goes it will be the first time in like 50 years since F1 had only 3 engine suppliers which is not good.

Yet supposedly the current formula is meant to be designed to encourage manufacturers to come in and stick around. Funny that.


All the talk of electric power units also irks me because at the end of the day even if that's the way road car goes it won't be the best way in racing for a long time. From the technological POV electric motors are already extremely efficient. Where the developments will be made will be in storage and that's going to come from conglomerates rather than F1 racing teams.

flazio

AMKC wrote: »

Should the FAI have done more to keep Honda in F1?

I would put this as a pole but it does not seem to be an option anymore.
Christian Horner was saying when Honda goes it will be the first time in like 50 years since F1 had only 3 engine suppliers which is not good.

Enough to worry about with the Wales game in the Nations Cup. Were unlucky in the playoff against Slovakia but probably wouldn't have gotten far in the main tournament anyway. I doubt changing the team cars from Nissan to Honda will make much of a difference to the F1 operation.

El_Duderino 09

AMKC wrote: »

Christian Horner was saying when Honda goes it will be the first time in like 50 years since F1 had only 3 engine suppliers which is not good.

There were only 3 manufacturers before Honda joined 5 years ago and ever since Honda left the last time after the 2008 season.

quokula

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

There were only 3 manufacturers before Honda joined 5 years ago and ever since Honda left the last time after the 2008 season.

That’s incorrect. There were still 5 manufacturers in 2009 the year after Honda left and there were never fewer than 4 until 2014 when the hybrid regulations forced Cosworth out of the sport. So you could say that Horner is wrong as there were only 3 engines in 2014, but Honda were actively testing and developing that year for 2015, the only reason they weren’t racing was that the ill conceived token system would have made it utterly impossible to develop their engine properly, so I guess from his point of view they were involved in the sport that year.

Harika

quokula wrote: »

That’s incorrect. There were still 5 manufacturers in 2009 the year after Honda left and there were never fewer than 4 until 2014 when the hybrid regulations forced Cosworth out of the sport. So you could say that Horner is wrong as there were only 3 engines in 2014, but Honda were actively testing and developing that year for 2015, the only reason they weren’t racing was that the ill conceived token system would have made it utterly impossible to develop their engine properly, so I guess from his point of view they were involved in the sport that year.

Honda wanted even to test a year longer but McLaren was pushing.
To the topic, in the 70s there were years with only Ferrari Cosworth and some random competition like BRM or Matra
Ironically red bull is part of the problem, Brawn mentioned in his book that in the 2000s the marketing people took over with their big budgets. F1 got more expensive, money was thrown at cutting edge technology, now it gets too expensive and the marketing people leave, leaving the burning ruins behind them.

El_Duderino 09

quokula wrote: »

That’s incorrect. There were still 5 manufacturers in 2009 the year after Honda left and there were never fewer than 4 until 2014 when the hybrid regulations forced Cosworth out of the sport. So you could say that Horner is wrong as there were only 3 engines in 2014, but Honda were actively testing and developing that year for 2015, the only reason they weren’t racing was that the ill conceived token system would have made it utterly impossible to develop their engine properly, so I guess from his point of view they were involved in the sport that year.

Yeah fair enough. I take Horner's point that now there are no teams even considering entering f1.

They have to make the engine more relevant if they want more manufacturers. The compromise v6 was a perfect example of why the teams shouldn't make their own rules.

Old school petrol is dead as a future technology. They're introducing 10%biofuel next year but that's just fiddling about at the edges.

Maybe they need unlimited batteries which they can recharge however they like, maybe they need a totally future based fuel like hydrogen. But this formula is both boring and can't keep a big manufacturer like Honda interested or attract news engine suppliers. Worst of all possible worlds.

F1 doesn't have to continue as a big sport. It could become much smaller and fade into the background as FE takes over as the pinnicle of motorsport and future based technology. Maybe we just accept that f1 had a good innings at the top of motorsport.

AMKC

flazio wrote: »

Enough to worry about with the Wales game in the Nations Cup. Were unlucky in the playoff against Slovakia but probably wouldn't have gotten far in the main tournament anyway. I doubt changing the team cars from Nissan to Honda will make much of a difference to the F1 operation.

Ye alright I meant the FIA lol. Easy to mix up.

skipper_G

Another excellent piece relating to engines on racefans, well worth a read. Especially for those calling for changes as a reaction to Honda

https://www.racefans.net/2020/10/11/why-f1-shouldnt-go-down-the-independent-engine-manufacturer-route/

Jordan 199

Reliability issues again for Renault today. If they want to finish third in the constructors champíonship, they need both drivers finishing in the points and ahead of Racing Point and McLaren.

AMKC

Jordan 199 wrote: »

Reliability issues again for Renault today. If they want to finish third in the constructors champíonship, they need both drivers finishing in the points and ahead of Racing Point and McLaren.

True but they were not the only one with issues at least. Mercedes had too. It was the cold

Ikozma

Delighted Danny ric finally got on the podium, he should have had a few more this year already
Going back to Honda leaving does that mean mclaren will stay with Renault and what engine will at and rb use nxt year?

mickdw

Ikozma wrote: »

Delighted Danny ric finally got on the podium, he should have had a few more this year already
Going back to Honda leaving does that mean mclaren will stay with Renault and what engine will at and rb use nxt year?

Mclaren are getting Mercedes Engines and it must be said that the trend is looking very much like a return to front running mclaren mercedes which will be very nice to see.

ELM327

mickdw wrote: »

Mclaren are getting Mercedes Engines and it must be said that the trend is looking very much like a return to front running mclaren mercedes which will be very nice to see.

Exactly where they were back to the early 2010's , before they moved to honda.

El_Duderino 09

ELM327 wrote: »

Exactly where they were back to the early 2010's , before they moved to honda.

Yeah in hindsight they would have been better off staying where they were. The maxim that you can't win a championship as a customer team still holds. They took a chance on being works team to try to win the championship and it didn't work out.

Now they're back to being a customer with the best engine. So if all goes to plan they could compete for podiums and maybe even nick a win when the Mercedes works team has trouble. They'll probably be at the level where red bull is this year.

ELM327

It does, but you also can't win a championship in this formula without a mercedes PU.
If you put a merc engine in the red bull it would probably be faster than the works mercedes. If McLaren can get to the same level of aero and chassis as red bull and have 2 drivers on par with max-5% then they could come close to winning the constructors. Bottas would then be dead weight and have to be replaced. At the moment he's there because the mercs dont have any competition.

guyfo

ELM327 wrote: »

Exactly where they were back to the early 2010's , before they moved to honda.

I think you'll find they were very much a midfield team before they moved to Honda. The Japanese can't be blamed for all of McLaren's decline.