Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

ELM327

guyfo wrote: »

I think you'll find they were very much a midfield team before they moved to Honda. The Japanese can't be blamed for all of McLaren's decline.

They were a midfield team about the level they are at now.

guyfo

ELM327 wrote: »

They were a midfield team about the level they are at now.

Yes.... Not the front running team you said they were before moving to Honda!

ELM327

guyfo wrote: »

Yes.... Not the front running team you said they were before moving to Honda!

They are towards the front, in the top 3 teams. Same then as now.
You can argue over semantics or whatever but the fact remains that the move to Honda has set them back years, they have only this year reached performance relative levels to where they were in 2012-2013.

This is it

Watched The Silver War on YouTube last night, really enjoyed it. Fell out of love with F1 many years ago and I'm only back watching it the last two seasons. Annoyed with myself having missed the 2016 season, seemed like a cracker. That's what you want, drivers neck and neck, leader of the championship changing throughout.

Frank Bullitt

This is it wrote: »

Watched The Silver War on YouTube last night, really enjoyed it. Fell out of love with F1 many years ago and I'm only back watching it the last two seasons. Annoyed with myself having missed the 2016 season, seemed like a cracker. That's what you want, drivers neck and neck, leader of the championship changing throughout.

Amen to that.

2016 seems like an eternity ago now.

I watched the highlights of the race instead of the full rerun. Same ol stuff as before, I do not care much for midfield battles like we get (as entertaining as they can be) because the front is what really should matter, but we always have the Mercs running off without a challenge in the slightest. This is what they designed and pushed for, so I shouldn't be surprised.

Hamilton equaling Schumachers race wins was all but certain to happen once Rosberg decided one championship was enough. I will openly and have been open about not being a Hamilton fan at all really, so the following should probably not sound too surprising coming from me.

I will forever hold what Schumacher did in a higher regard due to his career and entry into F1 over all. Call it sour grapes if you will, Schumacher joining a Ferrari team when it was running tractors and turning it into the machine over those years feels more substantial over joining a team who were already ready and waiting for dominance with the rule set as it was, along with having been at a front field team also.

It is a tale of 2 very different career trajectories, so maybe it is best that I leave it at that. :rolleyes:



And don't worry, I am very aware that I sound like the old man of this forum these days

flazio

By the time Schumacher got to this many race wins he had 7 titles with fewer races per year. Lewis is on 6. That statistic will never ever change.

Harika

flazio wrote: »

By the time Schumacher got to this many race wins he had 7 titles with fewer races per year. Lewis is on 6. That statistic will never ever change.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_driver_records

Lewis has a higher race win percentage than Schumacher. This year he will equalise the seven championships

antodeco

Harika wrote: »

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_driver_records

Lewis has a higher race win percentage than Schumacher. This year he will equalise the seven championships

You can't compare someone's total races with someone who still has more races to do. Compare at the same number of races when Hamilton gets there.

Currently:

Hamilton: it took 261 races to get 91 wins
Schumacher: it took 246 races to get 91 wins

Mitch Connor

Many people questioned Hamilton going to Merc when he did. It was not seen as a slam dunk championship winner when he did so. Hindsight is being used a lot here. Could you not say the same thing about Ferrari in that they were turning things around prior to his arrival and that it wasn't just down to Schumacher dragging a tractor to victories?

Also, people give out about Hamilton saying he is in a dominant car and thus his wins count less - Schmacher was quicker to wins and titles - does that not indicate he was in the best car for much of his time (up to that point anyway).

People also give out about Hamilton saying he has a clear number 2 driver in his team... Unlike Schumacher? Irvine was his equal? Remember Irvine losing out on a title in large part being a clear number 2 to Schumacher (moving over to give him points!) earlier in a season the MS missed a chunk of after crashing?

People also give out about Hamilton saying he is a sore loser and gets unfair advantages.... did I dream Schumacher winning a title as a direct result of deliberately crashing into his opponent taking him out of a race and probably victory?

I do think Schumacher was a better driver - but the deification of him, and vilification of Hamilton is laughable.

eviltimeban

^ I think a lot of it is down to the lack of competition. Many of the Schumacher titles went down to the wire. Same with Vettel. With Hamilton / Mercedes, you can almost tell after the second race of the season what the end result will be.

ELM327

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Many people questioned Hamilton going to Merc when he did. It was not seen as a slam dunk championship winner when he did so. Hindsight is being used a lot here. Could you not say the same thing about Ferrari in that they were turning things around prior to his arrival and that it wasn't just down to Schumacher dragging a tractor to victories?

Also, people give out about Hamilton saying he is in a dominant car and thus his wins count less - Schmacher was quicker to wins and titles - does that not indicate he was in the best car for much of his time (up to that point anyway).

People also give out about Hamilton saying he has a clear number 2 driver in his team... Unlike Schumacher? Irvine was his equal? Remember Irvine losing out on a title in large part being a clear number 2 to Schumacher (moving over to give him points!) earlier in a season the MS missed a chunk of after crashing?

People also give out about Hamilton saying he is a sore loser and gets unfair advantages.... did I dream Schumacher winning a title as a direct result of deliberately crashing into his opponent taking him out of a race and probably victory?

I do think Schumacher was a better driver - but the deification of him, and vilification of Hamilton is laughable.

Now that never happened.
That was the season where MSC broke his leg, but had to come back because he was seen playing football.


Irvine wasnt asked to move over for him that season, he lost the title because Ferrari came out with 3 tires for one of his stops. Eddie could easily have won that WDC

El_Duderino 09

If I hear about Ricciardo and his fcuking tattoo again I'll scream. It was a funny little joke the first time I heard about it. It's the kind of thing that should take up a page in his autobiography - the time I made my team boss get a tattoo. But it's being turned into a saga.

It's such an indictment of the fact driver have so little opportunity to actually express their personality that this little joke is being turned into a focal point.

The more I think about it the more I think f1 had just run out of road as a top sport. The drivers are corporate spokesperson. Petrol engines are less relevant to the future than they've ever been in history, it's too expensive and not very entertaining, it's bound by tradition and attachment to the past and is very reluctant to change.

This tattoo stuff being a big story is a real indication of how far the sport has fallen.

ELM327

antodeco wrote: »

You can't compare someone's total races with someone who still has more races to do. Compare at the same number of races when Hamilton gets there.

Currently:

Hamilton: it took 261 races to get 91 wins
Schumacher: it took 246 races to get 91 wins

Agree, and other than some the ferrari 00-04 years (arguably 2 of the 5 WDC years), schumacher never had the clear best car on the track.



Add to that, MSC had 3 years in a sub par car where winning was not possible from 10-12 to distort the stats.

vectra

Gintonious wrote: »

Amen to that.



Hamilton equaling Schumachers race wins was all but certain to happen once Rosberg decided one championship was enough. I will openly and have been open about not being a Hamilton fan at all really, so the following should probably not sound too surprising coming from me.

I will forever hold what Schumacher did in a higher regard due to his career and entry into F1 over all. Call it sour grapes if you will, Schumacher joining a Ferrari team when it was running tractors and turning it into the machine over those years feels more substantial over joining a team who were already ready and waiting for dominance with the rule set as it was, along with having been at a front field team also.

It is a tale of 2 very different career trajectories, so maybe it is best that I leave it at that. :rolleyes:

And another Amen to that.

Mitch Connor

ELM327 wrote: »

Agree, and other than some the ferrari 00-04 years (arguably 2 of the 5 WDC years), schumacher never had the clear best car on the track.



Add to that, MSC had 3 years in a sub par car where winning was not possible from 10-12 to distort the stats.

Hamilton had a few years at McLaren before the move to Merc where winning wasn't possible either.

quokula

Schumacher debuted at short notice as a replacement driver for Jordan, and immediately comfortably outqualified his experienced team-mate and was so impressive that he was snapped up by Benetton immediately, where he beat his World Champion team-mate Nelson Piquet on his debut. He went on to win his first race a year later, in a season where he beat Ayrton Senna in a close battle for third in the WDC behind the utterly dominant Williams. He then went on to become the youngest ever WDC a couple of years later in a Benetton powered by a Cosworth developed V8, up against more powerful V10s, that his team-mate could barely get into the points (Schumacher scored 92 of the team's 103 constructors points), and he solidified that by earning another, much more dominant title the following year after Benetton secured works Renault engines on par with the competition. Without Schumacher, Benetton were never anything other than a midfield team before or after that, up until they were bought by Renault a decade later and became a works team.

He then went to Ferrari, who had been languishing in the midfield and hadn't won a title in many many years. He immediately started winning races in 96 and even mounted title challenges in 97 and 98 while his team mate failed to win a single race or score a single pole position in any of those years. All his hard work in difficult cars allowed Ferrari to move forward and bring in more sponsorship along with top designers and engineers. He was looking good to finally win the title in 99 (which would have made it 8) before a broken leg put him out for the season. Once Ferrari finally had a decent car in 2000 that was good enough for his team mate to get up to 4th in the WDC, Michael won the title, and then went on to dominate the following seasons, even as the FIA threw the kitchen sink at the rule book every year trying to stop him and Ferrari and make the sport more competitive. They finally succeeded in 2005, with the new tyre rules sending Ferrari tumbling down the order with the fourth best car. He still came 3rd in the WDC though, while his team-mate was down in 8th. In his final season, with a competitive car again, he was looking good to win his 8th title until his engine blew up at Suzuka and Alonso took the title. From 1994 to 2006, he never finished outside the top 3 in the championship (except the year he broke his leg), despite quite a few of those years being in cars that really struggled to be anywhere near the top, with teammates as low as 10th in the championship in some of those years.

Hamilton walked into the best car on the grid for his debut, and then benefitted from the team favouring him over his team-mate, who was involved with blowing the whistle on them cheating by stealing their competitor's blueprints. Then, in 2008, in a car developed with the benefit of those blueprints, he was able to win the title, albeit barely beating Felipe Massa thanks to benefitting from better reliability over the season, and thanks to Glock slowing down on the last lap of the last race.

In the years that followed he was saddled with a car that was merely joint best or second best. While his team-mate Button came second in the WDC, Hamilton failed to reach those dizzying heights in that period and was outscored by Jenson over their years together. He then ran away to Mercedes, who had already been lobbying behind the scenes for the 2014 rules they had pumped hundreds of millions into developing their car for. The next 7 titles were already guaranteed for the team, regardless of who they put in the driver seat, and Hamilton got lucky that they were looking to hire just as he was running away from McLaren.

From that point on the records were inevitable. Even then, he made a meal of it by allowing Rosberg to beat him in equal machinery just as Button had, but Mercedes ensured he never had to suffer that indignity again by putting the poorest, most compliant number 2 driver they could find in the second seat to replace Nico for the years that followed. And so the records have fallen.

His achievements and Schumacher's are just not remotely comparable. I don't think any driver in history could have achieved what Schumacher did. At least half a dozen drivers on the grid today could have achieved what Hamilton did given the same opportunities.

Anjobe

quokula wrote: »

Schumacher debuted at short notice as a replacement driver for Jordan, and immediately comfortably outqualified his experienced team-mate and was so impressive that he was snapped up by Benetton immediately, where he beat his World Champion team-mate Nelson Piquet on his debut. He went on to win his first race a year later, in a season where he beat Ayrton Senna in a close battle for third in the WDC behind the utterly dominant Williams. He then went on to become the youngest ever WDC a couple of years later in a Benetton powered by a Cosworth developed V8, up against more powerful V10s, that his team-mate could barely get into the points (Schumacher scored 92 of the team's 103 constructors points), and he solidified that by earning another, much more dominant title the following year after Benetton secured works Renault engines on par with the competition. Without Schumacher, Benetton were never anything other than a midfield team before or after that, up until they were bought by Renault a decade later and became a works team.

He then went to Ferrari, who had been languishing in the midfield and hadn't won a title in many many years. He immediately started winning races in 96 and even mounted title challenges in 97 and 98 while his team mate failed to win a single race or score a single pole position in any of those years. All his hard work in difficult cars allowed Ferrari to move forward and bring in more sponsorship along with top designers and engineers. He was looking good to finally win the title in 99 (which would have made it 8) before a broken leg put him out for the season. Once Ferrari finally had a decent car in 2000 that was good enough for his team mate to get up to 4th in the WDC, Michael won the title, and then went on to dominate the following seasons, even as the FIA threw the kitchen sink at the rule book every year trying to stop him and Ferrari and make the sport more competitive. They finally succeeded in 2005, with the new tyre rules sending Ferrari tumbling down the order with the fourth best car. He still came 3rd in the WDC though, while his team-mate was down in 8th. In his final season, with a competitive car again, he was looking good to win his 8th title until his engine blew up at Suzuka and Alonso took the title. From 1994 to 2006, he never finished outside the top 3 in the championship (except the year he broke his leg), despite quite a few of those years being in cars that really struggled to be anywhere near the top, with teammates as low as 10th in the championship in some of those years.

Hamilton walked into the best car on the grid for his debut, and then benefitted from the team favouring him over his team-mate, who was involved with blowing the whistle on them cheating by stealing their competitor's blueprints. Then, in 2008, in a car developed with the benefit of those blueprints, he was able to win the title, albeit barely beating Felipe Massa thanks to benefitting from better reliability over the season, and thanks to Glock slowing down on the last lap of the last race.

In the years that followed he was saddled with a car that was merely joint best or second best. While his team-mate Button came second in the WDC, Hamilton failed to reach those dizzying heights in that period and was outscored by Jenson over their years together. He then ran away to Mercedes, who had already been lobbying behind the scenes for the 2014 rules they had pumped hundreds of millions into developing their car for. The next 7 titles were already guaranteed for the team, regardless of who they put in the driver seat, and Hamilton got lucky that they were looking to hire just as he was running away from McLaren.

From that point on the records were inevitable. Even then, he made a meal of it by allowing Rosberg to beat him in equal machinery just as Button had, but Mercedes ensured he never had to suffer that indignity again by putting the poorest, most compliant number 2 driver they could find in the second seat to replace Nico for the years that followed. And so the records have fallen.

His achievements and Schumacher's are just not remotely comparable. I don't think any driver in history could have achieved what Schumacher did. At least half a dozen drivers on the grid today could have achieved what Hamilton did given the same opportunities.

Yawn

ELM327

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Hamilton had a few years at McLaren before the move to Merc where winning wasn't possible either.

He had a car that was capable of winning the WDC in '07 and '08
'09 was an odd year with the Brawn car being so OP'd
'10 he was within a few points of winning.
'11 no one came close to vettel
'12 he was in an off the pace mclaren and only bested his teammate Jenson "Mediocre" Button by 2 points.
'13 was a setup year for the next decade of mercedes dominance.
So that's 2 years + 2013 of down years.



By comparison MSC had 1993, 1996,1997,1998,1999 where he was not in the best car. Arguably he didnt have the best car in 2000 either.
Same in '05 and '06 due to the FIA constantly changing rules to minimize ferrari dominance
So that's 8 years

quokula

ELM327 wrote: »

He had a car that was capable of winning the WDC in '07 and '08
'09 was an odd year with the Brawn car being so OP'd
'10 he was within a few points of winning.
'11 no one came close to vettel
'12 he was in an off the pace mclaren and only bested his teammate Jenson "Mediocre" Button by 2 points.
'13 was a setup year for the next decade of mercedes dominance.
So that's 2 years + 2013 of down years.



By comparison MSC had 1993, 1996,1997,1998,1999 where he was not in the best car. Arguably he didnt have the best car in 2000 either.
Same in '05 and '06 due to the FIA constantly changing rules to minimize ferrari dominance
So that's 8 years

I'd argue that MSC had nowhere near the best car in 1994 either, probably not even second best, given that it was only capable of 11 points in the hands of his team-mates.

On top of that, it's Schumacher's work in the years he had poor cars, winning races and mounting title challenges in some really poor early Ferraris, that allowed the team to push forward, win over sponsors, hire engineers, and build competitive cars. He also did unprecedented amounts of testing work behind the scenes which will have helped development, although obviously that's no longer an option for race drivers these days. But it seems pretty likely that without Schumacher joining them, Ferrari would never have got to the level they did and probably would have won nothing. Even getting to the level they did, the other Ferrari only came second in 2002 and 2004, so they're the only years we could honestly say another driver would have won the title in those cars.

Mercedes, by contrast, already had dominance of the hybrid era baked in with the work that was happening in their boardrooms and at their factory, before Hamilton ever signed for them. Take him out, and Rosberg would be a 7 time champion now, or a three time champion followed by whoever replaced him if he still retired.

ELM327

quokula wrote: »

I'd argue that MSC had nowhere near the best car in 1994 either, probably not even second best, given that it was only capable of 11 points in the hands of his team-mates.

On top of that, it's Schumacher's work in the years he had poor cars, winning races and mounting title challenges in some really poor early Ferraris, that allowed the team to push forward, win over sponsors, hire engineers, and build competitive cars. He also did unprecedented amounts of testing work behind the scenes which will have helped development, although obviously that's no longer an option for race drivers these days. But it seems pretty likely that without Schumacher joining them, Ferrari would never have got to the level they did and probably would have won nothing. Even getting to the level they did, the other Ferrari only came second in 2002 and 2004, so they're the only years we could honestly say another driver would have won the title in those cars.

Mercedes, by contrast, already had dominance of the hybrid era baked in with the work that was happening in their boardrooms and at their factory, before Hamilton ever signed for them. Take him out, and Rosberg would be a 7 time champion now, or a three time champion followed by whoever replaced him if he still retired.

Imagine having someone like Rosberg, Bottas, Button as a 7 time WDC.
Mediocre drivers. Totally possible. Whoever got the main seat in that merc was as blessed as Jenson in 2009

jv2000

ELM327 wrote: »

He had a car that was capable of winning the WDC in '07 and '08
'09 was an odd year with the Brawn car being so OP'd
'10 he was within a few points of winning.
'11 no one came close to vettel
'12 he was in an off the pace mclaren and only bested his teammate Jenson "Mediocre" Button by 2 points.
'13 was a setup year for the next decade of mercedes dominance.
So that's 2 years + 2013 of down years.



By comparison MSC had 1993, 1996,1997,1998,1999 where he was not in the best car. Arguably he didnt have the best car in 2000 either.
Same in '05 and '06 due to the FIA constantly changing rules to minimize ferrari dominance
So that's 8 years

If Schumacher did not have that accident in 1999 then I think he would have won the championship. Irvine almost did it so the car must have been good. Nothing was a given in the 90s though because of car reliability, the same could be said for the 00's as well. Whilst I look back at 99 and can accept it just was not meant to be, I cannot accept 07 and 08 as easily. If Schumacher had stayed then he would have probably benefited in 07 the same way Raikkonen did and 08 would likely have been easier as the Ferrari seemed like a better car. Incidentally that would have robbed Hamilton of championship #1

Mitch Connor

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Many people questioned Hamilton going to Merc when he did. It was not seen as a slam dunk championship winner when he did so. Hindsight is being used a lot here. Could you not say the same thing about Ferrari in that they were turning things around prior to his arrival and that it wasn't just down to Schumacher dragging a tractor to victories?

Those on the outside only have hindsight, those on the inside had far more knowledge. And hindsight doesn't change that Merc got the rules they wanted and developed specifically for well before Hamilton came along.

ELM327

jv2000 wrote: »

If Schumacher did not have that accident in 1999 then I think he would have won the championship. Irvine almost did it so the car must have been good. Nothing was a given in the 90s though because of car reliability, the same could be said for the 00's as well. Whilst I look back at 99 and can accept it just was not meant to be, I cannot accept 07 and 08 as easily. If Schumacher had stayed then he would have probably benefited in 07 the same way Raikkonen did and 08 would likely have been easier as the Ferrari seemed like a better car. Incidentally that would have robbed Hamilton of championship #1

Yup, '99 was the first year where the ferrari was approaching equalityy with the mclarens.



MSC could easily have had 8-9 titles if he hadnt broken his leg, if he hadnt had the engine failure giving alonso the '06 title, and if ferrari hadnt given him the boot for Kimi for 07.

mickdw

ELM327 wrote: »

Imagine having someone like Rosberg, Bottas, Button as a 7 time WDC.
Mediocre drivers. Totally possible. Whoever got the main seat in that merc was as blessed as Jenson in 2009

I believe they were going for hulkenburg if hamilton wasnt signed.
How different his career would have been.
Id say Rosberg would have got the upper hand but its likely we would now have 3 times champion Rosberg with a couple of titles for the Hulk with Hamilton maybe in a Ferrari picking up a title or 2.

eviltimeban

ELM327 wrote: »

Imagine having someone like Rosberg, Bottas, Button as a 7 time WDC.
Mediocre drivers. Totally possible. Whoever got the main seat in that merc was as blessed as Jenson in 2009

So by that logic, isn't Hamilton also a mediocre driver?

ELM327

eviltimeban wrote: »

So by that logic, isn't Hamilton also a mediocre driver?

I've always said that whoever was in that merc seat would have won multiple WDC that they wouldnt have otherwise.


I dont rate hamilton. But I'm not getting into that at risk of falling foul of the mod warning.

rianmcn

Red Bull says Hulkenberg an option for 2021 F1 seat

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red-bull-hulkenberg-2021-seat/4891277/amp/

Red Bull says Nico Hulkenberg could be an option for the team in 2021, after revealing that it even spoke to the German about driving at the Nurburgring.
In the wake of an inconclusive coronavirus test for Alex Albon before the weekend, Red Bull's motorsport advisor Helmut Marko says that he talked to Hulkenberg about the possibility of being a stand in.

In the end, Albon's retest proved negative before, coincidentally, Hulkenberg was called up by Racing Point the following day after Lance Stroll was taken ill.

Speaking to German channel Sport1, Marko said: "We were already in talks with Hulkenberg on Friday, because Albon, like many others, had an inconclusive test result.

"It could have turned out to be positive. Right after landing I called Hulkenberg, because our suspected case was Albon. But thank god it turned out that Albon was negative after all."

The revelation about Hulkenberg comes in the wake of renewed speculation about Albon's long-term future at Red Bull in the wake of what many felt was a disappointing outing at the Eifel Grand Prix for the Thai driver.

His afternoon was derailed by a major lock-up on the first lap which prompted an early change for tyres. Later on he got a penalty for his part in an incident with Daniil Kvyat before eventually retiring after a stone pierced a radiator on his car.

Red Bull is much more relaxed about Albon's form though, and believes he has the potential to be as close to Verstappen as it wants him to be.

However, Marko admits that the team needs Albon to perform at his best and, if not, then the obvious options for the team are Nico Hulkenberg and Sergio Perez.

"We can call the names that are available on the market," said Marko. "This is Hulkenberg and this is Perez. The question is how far away they would be from Max?

"We have comparisons with [Daniel] Ricciardo and we can draw conclusions about where the drivers stand. I don't think that anyone would get closer than three tenths.

"On good days, Albon is also able to create this proximity to Max. Albon is young, but we are aware that if he can't stand the pressure, we can't afford to be standing on one leg when it comes to the world championship. That is the situation.

"It is actually impossible for a world championship if you only have one car in the action. But we are not there yet.

"The performance [of Albon] at the Nurburgring was satisfactory. That's just the situation."

While Red Bull has previously been resolute that its preference is to promote drivers from within its own junior programme, Marko says the situation is different now.

For while Yuki Tsunoda is impressing in F2, Marko thinks it is too early to promote him straight to Red Bull, so he would be better off at AlphaTauri.

"Up to now we have always recruited our drivers from our own junior squad. But there's nobody here at the moment," added Marko.

"We do have a Japanese who is very fast, but this would be his first year. And to put him in a top team like Red Bull Racing for the first year would risk burning him out. We are not planning to do that."

"So we would have to go the way most other teams do, to rely on proven drivers."

Marko said Red Bull wants to make a decision about its line-up by the Turkish Grand Prix in November, with the ball in Albon's court.

"We are actually already clear about three positions," said Marko, in reference to the likelihood of Tsunoda stepping up with AlphaTauri alongside Pierre Gasly. "We want to make the fourth one by Istanbul in mid-November at the latest."

Asked what factors would drive the final decision, Marko said: "Primarily it is the performance of Albon. As long as he is in the green zone, there is simply no cockpit available."

Marko was full of praise for the job that Hulkenberg did at the Nurburgring, when the German finished eighth despite not having driven the car before qualifying.

"I think the worst thing that can happen to a driver is to get into a car for qualifying," he said. "You have to take into account that he knows the Racing Point from his previous races, but it was certainly a very difficult situation.

"He gradually improved during the race, did nothing stupid and drove the car to a commanding eighth place. We followed the times. At times [Pierre] Gasly and [Daniil] Kvyat were also close to him.

"Then I saw that he was gradually getting closer to Perez's times. Hats off. A great performance."

Marko also revealed that Red Bull has been in regular contact with Hulkenberg for several months, but not about a race seat just yet.

"We are in talks with Hulkenberg, for example, as a television commentator and expert for ServusTV. After all, we have the rights for Austria next year, alternating with ORF. These are the first talks."

quokula

eviltimeban wrote: »

So by that logic, isn't Hamilton also a mediocre driver?

Well isn't that exactly the point.

People's impressions of drivers is heavily skewed by the car they were in. If Rosberg was a 7 time champion now people wouldn't be calling him mediocre. He'd still be the same driver though, who was basically very closely matched with Hamilton and came out the end of their partnership as World Champion while Hamilton wasn't. Had he stayed on, with that psychological advantage, he could well have won more. He also could have won the title in 2014 too if it had been Hamilton's car that broke down in the final race rather than his.

It's easy to forget after a few years of only having to turn up to be guaranteed a victory when driving the Mercedes and having only Bottas for company, but the reality is that Hamilton was barely better than Rosberg, and couldn't get the better of Button either - Hamilton had more pace, but Button scored more points and finished higher in the WDC than Hamilton ever did thanks to superior racecraft. And it's not like Hamilton's racecraft has improved, the Merc is just so far in front that he never has to race anyone. The couple of times he has recently, we've seen him crash straight into Albon, as he racks up the penalty points for other silly mistakes too.

Schumacher was considered the best driver in the world before he won a title for Ferrari. You could see it every time he got in the car, in performances where he single handedly took the race to the dominant Williams or McLarens while his team-mate was miles behind. We're seeing similar types of performances from Max at the moment. Lewis has never shown that kind of performance in his career, he's only ever really just about matched his team-mates, apart from Bottas who was obviously hired to not beat him.

Anjobe

quokula wrote: »

Well isn't that exactly the point.

People's impressions of drivers is heavily skewed by the car they were in. If Rosberg was a 7 time champion now people wouldn't be calling him mediocre. He'd still be the same driver though, who was basically very closely matched with Hamilton and came out the end of their partnership as World Champion while Hamilton wasn't. Had he stayed on, with that psychological advantage, he could well have won more. He also could have won the title in 2014 too if it had been Hamilton's car that broke down in the final race rather than his.

It's easy to forget after a few years of only having to turn up to be guaranteed a victory when driving the Mercedes and having only Bottas for company, but the reality is that Hamilton was barely better than Rosberg, and couldn't get the better of Button either - Hamilton had more pace, but Button scored more points and finished higher in the WDC than Hamilton ever did thanks to superior racecraft. And it's not like Hamilton's racecraft has improved, the Merc is just so far in front that he never has to race anyone. The couple of times he has recently, we've seen him crash straight into Albon, as he racks up the penalty points for other silly mistakes too.

Schumacher was considered the best driver in the world before he won a title for Ferrari. You could see it every time he got in the car, in performances where he single handedly took the race to the dominant Williams or McLarens while his team-mate was miles behind. We're seeing similar types of performances from Max at the moment. Lewis has never shown that kind of performance in his career, he's only ever really just about matched his team-mates, apart from Bottas who was obviously hired to not beat him.

Yawn, all the usual double standards that get applied to Hamilton proudly on display here.

ELM327

quokula wrote: »

Well isn't that exactly the point.

People's impressions of drivers is heavily skewed by the car they were in. If Rosberg was a 7 time champion now people wouldn't be calling him mediocre. He'd still be the same driver though, who was basically very closely matched with Hamilton and came out the end of their partnership as World Champion while Hamilton wasn't. Had he stayed on, with that psychological advantage, he could well have won more. He also could have won the title in 2014 too if it had been Hamilton's car that broke down in the final race rather than his.

It's easy to forget after a few years of only having to turn up to be guaranteed a victory when driving the Mercedes and having only Bottas for company, but the reality is that Hamilton was barely better than Rosberg, and couldn't get the better of Button either - Hamilton had more pace, but Button scored more points and finished higher in the WDC than Hamilton ever did thanks to superior racecraft. And it's not like Hamilton's racecraft has improved, the Merc is just so far in front that he never has to race anyone. The couple of times he has recently, we've seen him crash straight into Albon, as he racks up the penalty points for other silly mistakes too.

Schumacher was considered the best driver in the world before he won a title for Ferrari. You could see it every time he got in the car, in performances where he single handedly took the race to the dominant Williams or McLarens while his team-mate was miles behind. We're seeing similar types of performances from Max at the moment. Lewis has never shown that kind of performance in his career, he's only ever really just about matched his team-mates, apart from Bottas who was obviously hired to not beat him.

+1
Schumacher, Verstappen, Senna, arguably Alonso are on a different tier level to the likes of Hamilton, Vettel etc