Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

ELM327

Anjobe wrote: »

Yawn, all the usual double standards that get applied to Hamilton proudly on display here.

Did he beat Middle of the Road Button over his three years together?

Anjobe

ELM327 wrote: »

Did he beat Middle of the Road Button over his three years together?

Did Schumacher ever have a team mate capable of or allowed to compete with him?

ELM327

Anjobe wrote: »

Did Schumacher ever have a team mate capable of or allowed to compete with him?

No, but he had plenty of rivals in cars that could.
Where's lewis's rivals that can win the WDC? One per year - if that - since 2014.

Jordan 199

Alonso is at the Circuit de Catalunya testing the Renault RS20 today as part of a filming day. Going to be interesting to see how he will do next year.

ELM327

Jordan 199 wrote: »

Alonso is at the Circuit de Catalunya testing the Renault RS20 today as part of a filming day. Going to be interesting to see how he will do next year.

Saw that, delighted to see him back in the car. He's too good to be out of the sport
Hope he can stay long enoigh to get another shot at a WDC


The internet would mark out hardcore if Hamilton's 8th championship was stopped by a returning alonso

Jordan 199

ELM327 wrote: »

Saw that, delighted to see him back in the car. He's too good to be out of the sport
Hope he can stay long enough to get another shot at a WDC

He'll be encourged by how Renault have improved this year. I'm hoping they can get a few more podiums this year and finish third in the constuctors championship.

Inquitus

Jordan 199 wrote: »

He'll be encourged by how Renault have improved this year. I'm hoping they can get a few more podiums this year and finish third in the constuctors championship.

They should be able to, they have the better package out of themselves, McLaren and Racing Point now, and the gap is small in the WCC, only 6 points behind racing point in 3rd.

Adamocovic

ELM327 wrote: »

Saw that, delighted to see him back in the car. He's too good to be out of the sport
Hope he can stay long enoigh to get another shot at a WDC


The internet would mark out hardcore if Hamilton's 8th championship was stopped by a returning alonso

I must be a minority who isn’t too happy to see Alonso coming back.

Brilliant driver in his day but I can’t see him being anywhere close to challenging for a WDC. Last time (albeit the car wasn’t great) he finished outside of the top 10.

He’s closing on 40 years old and it just feels like his return will pan out like Schumi with Merc or even worse like Kimi with Alpha.

Personally feels like he’s taking a seat away from a driver who I think deserves a chance at it. Whether that’s someone like Pérez/Hulkenberg or a young driver, whether poaching someone else’s or promoting Zhou, Lundgaard. If they have a relationship with Red Bull maybe even one of their many talented academy drivers.

Just my opinion though.

Inquitus

Adamocovic wrote: »

I must be a minority who isn’t too happy to see Alonso coming back.

Brilliant driver in his day but I can’t see him being anywhere close to challenging for a WDC. Last time (albeit the car wasn’t great) he finished outside of the top 10.

He’s closing on 40 years old and it just feels like his return will pan out like Schumi with Merc or even worse like Kimi with Alpha.

Personally feels like he’s taking a seat away from a driver who I think deserves a chance at it. Whether that’s someone like Pérez/Hulkenberg or a young driver, whether poaching someone else’s or promoting Zhou, Lundgaard. If they have a relationship with Red Bull maybe even one of their many talented academy drivers.

Just my opinion though.

I guess part of their logic is not results oriented, but they want an experienced head to help develop the car, give good feedback and drive them in the right direction. We will have to wait and see how he performs on the track.

quokula

Inquitus wrote: »

They should be able to, they have the better package out of themselves, McLaren and Racing Point now, and the gap is small in the WCC, only 6 points behind racing point in 3rd.

They still have to depend on Mercedes and Red Bull reliability issues to have a chance at a podium though. Such opportunities don't come often.

quokula

Adamocovic wrote: »

I must be a minority who isn’t too happy to see Alonso coming back.

Brilliant driver in his day but I can’t see him being anywhere close to challenging for a WDC. Last time (albeit the car wasn’t great) he finished outside of the top 10.

He’s closing on 40 years old and it just feels like his return will pan out like Schumi with Merc or even worse like Kimi with Alpha.

Personally feels like he’s taking a seat away from a driver who I think deserves a chance at it. Whether that’s someone like Pérez/Hulkenberg or a young driver, whether poaching someone else’s or promoting Zhou, Lundgaard. If they have a relationship with Red Bull maybe even one of their many talented academy drivers.

Just my opinion though.

He's taking a seat that could go to someone else, sure. But so is Latifi, Stroll, Bottas and others who are less deserving than a Perez or a Hulkenberg. It's not Alonso's fault.

The prospect of Alonso, Vettel and Ricciardo fighting in roughly evenly matched cars next year is pretty appealing, even if they're fighting over 5th place.

Frank Bullitt

ELM327 wrote: »

Saw that, delighted to see him back in the car. He's too good to be out of the sport
Hope he can stay long enoigh to get another shot at a WDC


The internet would mark out hardcore if Hamilton's 8th championship was stopped by a returning alonso

muckwarrior

Ocon will be a good yard-stick for Alonso. A decent driver, but nothing special. If Alonso doesn't dominate him then we'll know he's lost it.

Frank Bullitt

I'm excited to see him back. He hasn't been sitting on his arse for 2 years, but getting back up to F1 speed will take serious effort.

GarIT

Anjobe wrote: »

Yawn, all the usual double standards that get applied to Hamilton proudly on display here.

Yawn at your constant trolling and racism

El_Duderino 09

quokula wrote: »

They still have to depend on Mercedes and Red Bull reliability issues to have a chance at a podium though. Such opportunities don't come often.

Even with a better car than Mclaren, they'll still have a Renault engine vs the mclaren with a Mercedes engine.

The Renault started slower than the mclaren but has had done really slow and steady, incremental improvements. It's probably better than the mclaren at this stage. That's good work.

GarIT

32 Mins ago - Red Bull has confirmed they intend to take over Honda's F1 engine program.

They are currently in discussions to buy Honda's Milton Keynes base, their intellectual property and anything else needed to prepare engines in Milton Keynes.

EDIT: I may have jumped the gun just a little. Helmut Marko said to compelte the purchase they must first get confirmation from the FIA that there will be an engine development freeze from 2022-2025. They can't aford to develop new engines only make engines from the existing plans.

tipp_tipp_tipp

Regarding Schumacher/Hamilton debate, I would have Schumi as the better driver any day of the week, but those suggesting that Hamilton is nothing more than an average driver are wrong in my opinion.

I think Schumacher has an advantage in this argument (compared to any modern driver) in that he drove in that 90s era when the cars were sketchy and the driver could make more of a difference. So in 94 for example he was able to out qualifying team mates by 1.5s (or more, maybe electronic aids aided this, but let's assume not for today). So he had the opportunity of producing spectacular performances which are simply not possible today. As the years progressed the cars became more stable as they better understood the aero in yaw/pitch/roll. Irvine has spoken about this and how the gap between him and Schumi closed each year as the cars stabilised. By the end of his career, the likes of Massa and Rubens were frequently qualifying within a 3 tenths or so, and out qualifying him a few times. These kind of gaps remain standard fare to this day (Poor Albon gets slaughtered for being 0.5s off Max). As long as the cars remain as stable as they are today, no driver is going is to find 1s or more over the opposition due to driving talent alone. I've mentioned this before, but personally I think wings and diffusers should be spec parts, deliberately designed to make the cars (a little) unstable. That's a debate for another day though.

Regarding the suggestion Button beat Hamilton, I don't know why people keep saying that. The fact is Hamilton beat him 2-1. The points are reset to 0 at the end of every year, so that he outscored him over 3 season is meaningless. I posted the 2011 race at the Nurburgring over the weekend. A great race and a great win for Hamilton. Interestingly he led Button at this point in the championship. He had a terrible finish to the year, it was a half season slump and some people here want to write off an entire career because of it.

The people who make this argument also don't acknowledge the fantastic season Hamilton had in 2012. He would have be right in the hunt for the title had it not been for McLaren letting him down:
- Insufficient fuel put in the car during Spainsh qualy
- Pit stop issues at several races dropping him down the field (Bah and China spring to mind)
- Rear dampers incorrectly fitted at Suzuka
- Broken ARB at Korea
- Car failures while leading at Singapore and ABU
He also got taken out through no fault of his own at Valencia, Spa and Interlagos. Despite all of this he still beats Button by 2 points. He drove a great season and would have been worthy champion. Had Mclaren been competent, maybe he wouldn't have joined Merc . Possibly his best season??

The championships Hamilton has won at Mercedes get down played too much by some. I don't why Rosberg is considered mediocre. If that's the case, then Schumi must have been performing on Karthikeyan's level during his comeback. I don't believe that for a second. I think Rosberg is a fine driver and I enjoyed their rivalry. I also don't understand why people downplay his 2017 and 2018 titles. Ferrari were quick those years and brought a good challenge. Look where Bottas ended up in 2018. He drove fantastically well in those seasons and was a worthy champion.

I'll finish this up by emphasizing I would have Schumi as number 1. A more consistent performer for sure. But for me Hamilton has been one of the top dogs in the sport since his first race. I won't say the best of his era, i think it's a very close between him a few other (you know who they are). To downgrade him to anything less though is silly, as ever, in my humble opinion. I won't be offended if you disagree If you do disagree, I've been catching up on the Beyond the Grid podcast recently, I suggest you listen to likes of Pedro De La Rosa and Kovalienen's opinions, people who there on the inside and saw it all.

Anjobe

GarIT wrote: »

Yawn at your constant trolling and racism

Back it up or retract it, muppet

GarIT

Anjobe wrote: »

Back it up or retract it, muppet

Saying every criticism against Hamilton is just racial bias is racist against those criticising Hamilton.

The trolling part is because you never have anything worth saying, just criticise everyone else.

AMKC

GarIT wrote: »

32 Mins ago - Red Bull has confirmed they intend to take over Honda's F1 engine program.

They are currently in discussions to buy Honda's Milton Keynes base, their intellectual property and anything else needed to prepare engines in Milton Keynes.

EDIT: I may have jumped the gun just a little. Helmut Marko said to compelte the purchase they must first get confirmation from the FIA that there will be an engine development freeze from 2022-2025. They can't aford to develop new engines only make engines from the existing plans.

Where did you see this? Nothing confirmed on any of the regular sites. Be interesting if they do do it do but also might not still be as good as having Honda build the engines for them and supply them.

GarIT

AMKC wrote: »

Where did you see this? Nothing confirmed on any of the regular sites. Be interesting if they do do it do but also might not still be as good as having Honda build the engines for them and supply them.

Formula World youtube channel which quotes a Helmut Marko interview with Sport One.

Anjobe

GarIT wrote: »

Saying every criticism against Hamilton is just racial bias is racist against those criticising Hamilton.

Well, I haven't done that but even so that would not be racism. That comment shows a quite staggering lack of understanding of the issue.

GarIT wrote: »

The trolling part is because you never have anything worth saying, just criticise everyone else.

OK, it was a provocative comment but it wasn't meant to be trolling. Its fair enough that people don't like Hamilton, but why do we have to have the same tired, trite, cliched arguments about it over and over again.

AMKC

Gintonious wrote: »

I'm excited to see him back. He hasn't been sitting on his arse for 2 years, but getting back up to F1 speed will take serious effort.

No better driver to do it. I hope Alonso gets its 3rd and 4th WDC in the next few years. Some one has to challenge the Merc/Hamilton dominance and there is none better than Alonso and Renault together. If Riccairdo can get the Renault RS 20 to 3rd place just imagine what Alonso can do.

Man with broke phone

AMKC wrote: »

No better driver to do it. I hope Alonso gets its 3rd and 4th WDC in the next few years. Some one has to challenge the Merc/Hamilton dominance and there is none better than Alonso and Renault together. If Riccairdo can get the Renault RS 20 to 3rd place just imagine what Alonso can do.

Good god, renaults problem all along was having the last of the late breakers driving for them, they shouldhave had a 40 year old who hasnt wont a race in years.

muckwarrior

AMKC wrote: »

If Riccairdo can get the Renault RS 20 to 3rd place just imagine what Alonso can do.

3rd

Renault might have improved a bit, but they're still miles behind the mercs and max. Even if Alonso has still got it, he won't be much faster than an excellent driver like Ricciardo. Best of the rest is the most he can hope for.

ro_chez

tipp_tipp_tipp wrote: »

Re Hamilton/Schumacher debate

For me, it has to be Schumacher.

The first full season I watched F1 religiously was 1996 when Eurosport broadcast all the sessions live, including all FP sessions and warmup before the race.

I remember being in awe watching the practice sessions and quali when he would be constantly ringing the neck of the car when it was not setup, sideways through the corners, and if you say that nowadays it would be 1 second of the pace, probably more, but he was always a tenth or a few hundredths of top spot, and often got it.

The only time I remember feeling the same was watching Alonso in the Minardi when they showed him, rallying it around Monza.

Hamilton has certainly grown in confidence since joining Mercedes, and this has shown in his outright speed.

But overall, he doesn't hold a candle to Schumi in his prime, which was longer than Mercedes dominance.

Infoanon

GarIT wrote: »

32 Mins ago - Red Bull has confirmed they intend to take over Honda's F1 engine program.

They are currently in discussions to buy Honda's Milton Keynes base, their intellectual property and anything else needed to prepare engines in Milton Keynes.

This would go against Hondas DNA - Honda are notorious for allowing no one to access their engines , IP etc and have been known to destroy engines/GP Bikes to ensure no one gains from their knowledge.
The first give hint that Honda were pulling out of F1 was when all the engines were removed from Brackley.

Not saying it won't happen but it is Very unlikely and goes against Hondas believes.
The fact Marko said it only adds further doubt.

quokula

ro_chez wrote: »

For me, it has to be Schumacher.

The first full season I watched F1 religiously was 1996 when Eurosport broadcast all the sessions live, including all FP sessions and warmup before the race.

I remember being in awe watching the practice sessions and quali when he would be constantly ringing the neck of the car when it was not setup, sideways through the corners, and if you say that nowadays it would be 1 second of the pace, probably more, but he was always a tenth or a few hundredths of top spot, and often got it.

The only time I remember feeling the same was watching Alonso in the Minardi when they showed him, rallying it around Monza.

Hamilton has certainly grown in confidence since joining Mercedes, and this has shown in his outright speed.

But overall, he doesn't hold a candle to Schumi in his prime, which was longer than Mercedes dominance.

It's pretty obvious if you just distil it down - Schumacher was great for his entire career, regardless of the car he drove and regardless of circumstances. Hamilton has been successful only when in dominant cars, and only been average other seasons.

Here's an article from 1999, before Schumacher ever set foot in a dominant car or won a title for Ferrari:

http://www.atlasf1.com/99/apr21/kalb.html

He was already indisputably an all time great, being compared to the likes of Fangio and Senna, even though he'd yet to rack up most of his wins and titles.

Here's an article from 2013, before Hamilton had a dominant Mercedes:

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/formula-one/our-top-ten-f1-drivers-2013

they are paying Lewis a lot of money to be a lot better than Nico Rosberg and right now, he’s just not.

He wasn't even considered in the top five drivers that year, never mind of all time. As was the case through the years of the the big three drivers having somewhat similarly matched cars, it was always a question of whether Vettel or Alonso were the best, with Hamilton never being on quite the same level.

In fact in that particular ranking (which is of course subjective, but in line with most objective opinions at the time), he was even ranked lower than Romain Grosjean. Which goes to show just what a difference ending up in a dominant Merc vs ending up in an unpredictable Haas makes to a driver's reputation.

AMKC

Infoanon wrote: »

This would go against Hondas DNA - Honda are notorious for allowing no one to access their engines , IP etc and have been known to destroy engines/GP Bikes to ensure no one gains from their knowledge.
The first give hint that Honda were pulling out of F1 was when all the engines were removed from Brackley.

Not saying it won't happen but it is Very unlikely and goes against Hondas believes.
The fact Marko said it only adds further doubt.

As much as it has been great to see Red Bull and Honda progress and do well in the last couple of years and how sad it will be to see Honda and there engine leave I will be delighted for Red Bull having to go with there tail between there legs to Renault and ask for there engines. It's there own fault they are now in this situation because of the way they treated Renault after Renault had powered them to 4 drivers and Constructors championship wins.