Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

El_Duderino 09

AMKC wrote: »

As much as it has been great to see Red Bull and Honda progress and do well in the last couple of years and how sad it will be to see Honda and there engine leave I will be delighted for Red Bull having to go with there tail between there legs to Renault and ask for there engines. It's there own fault they are now in this situation because of the way they treated Renault after Renault had powered them to 4 drivers and Constructors championship wins.

Yeah and that might be satisfying on one level, but red bull moving backwards to Renault means a championship battle is even less likely for the foreseeable future.

As it stands were looking at Honda not investing much in next year's engine so that's not going to be any better than this year. 2022 will be a new supplier for red bull whether it's Renault or a Red bull collaboration developing the Honda. So that won't be any more competitive in its first year.


If it's Renault then it's probably status quo until the new engine formula in 2026. If it's a red bull collaboration engine then it's likely 2023-24 by the time it could be in a better position, relative to Mercedes, than right now.

In short, it's no laughing matter. F1 could be close to death if nobody can challenge Mercedes until then.

Hijpo

AMKC wrote: »

As much as it has been great to see Red Bull and Honda progress and do well in the last couple of years and how sad it will be to see Honda and there engine leave I will be delighted for Red Bull having to go with there tail between there legs to Renault and ask for there engines. It's there own fault they are now in this situation because of the way they treated Renault after Renault had powered them to 4 drivers and Constructors championship wins.

The gist of the story I have in my head is that Renault had serious reliability problems and red bull were seeing it compromise races on them, they had the drivers to get them podiums but the power unit left them down. I think they did what I think anyone would do and switch.

Why would their be satisfaction in them having to go back? Was it the way RB went about the move or comments that were made about renault before/during/after the move?

AMKC

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah and that might be satisfying on one level, but red bull moving backwards to Renault means a championship battle is even less likely for the foreseeable future.

As it stands were looking at Honda not investing much in next year's engine so that's not going to be any better than this year. 2022 will be a new supplier for red bull whether it's Renault or a Red bull collaboration developing the Honda. So that won't be any more competitive in its first year.


If it's Renault then it's probably status quo until the new engine formula in 2026. If it's a red bull collaboration engine then it's likely 2023-24 by the time it could be in a better position, relative to Mercedes, than right now.

In short, it's no laughing matter. F1 could be close to death if nobody can challenge Mercedes until then.

I never said I was satisfied baby it just happy for them. I do not think there will be much development on any of the engines for next year anyway as the rules are the same as this year but I think if Red Bull had this years Renault engine they could still do well. It's not as unreliable as it was and the Honda engine has not exactly been faultless either. In the video Red Bull say they want the Honda engine I'd but then no more engine development from 22. I do not think Ferrari or Renault will be too happy with that and might veto it if it goes to a vote if Honda give Red Bull there engine.

pjohnson

McLaren might actually pose a challenge to Mercedes once given the same engine.

Frank Bullitt

quokula wrote: »

It's pretty obvious if you just distil it down - Schumacher was great for his entire career, regardless of the car he drove and regardless of circumstances. Hamilton has been successful only when in dominant cars, and only been average other seasons.

Here's an article from 1999, before Schumacher ever set foot in a dominant car or won a title for Ferrari:

http://www.atlasf1.com/99/apr21/kalb.html

He was already indisputably an all time great, being compared to the likes of Fangio and Senna, even though he'd yet to rack up most of his wins and titles.

Here's an article from 2013, before Hamilton had a dominant Mercedes:

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/formula-one/our-top-ten-f1-drivers-2013



He wasn't even considered in the top five drivers that year, never mind of all time. As was the case through the years of the the big three drivers having somewhat similarly matched cars, it was always a question of whether Vettel or Alonso were the best, with Hamilton never being on quite the same level.

In fact in that particular ranking (which is of course subjective, but in line with most objective opinions at the time), he was even ranked lower than Romain Grosjean. Which goes to show just what a difference ending up in a dominant Merc vs ending up in an unpredictable Haas makes to a driver's reputation.

This is also a great read, it tells of his first time driving for Ferrari at a test.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/152108/autosport-70-the-first-story-of-schumacher-at-ferrari

This quote in it also stands out to me about how he liked his car set-up:

Herein lies the root of Johnny Herbert's problems at Benetton, and a contributing factor to Berger's test-ending crash with Benetton. It was also an eye-opener for Luigi Mazzola, the chief engineer of the Ferrari test team, and the man who worked closest with Schumacher at Estoril. Mazzola said he had never seen anything like the way Schumacher used his car.

But ask Schumacher to explain why he needs his car set up so differently to other drivers and he refuses to share the secret. "It is different to everybody else," he shrugs. "I certainly seem to have a different driving style. But, you know, Damon Hill reads Autosport, so I'm not going to go through my style and what I require for the car!"

He seemed, I suggested, to like a car a lot more nervous than other drivers, who seem to have trouble with the set-up.

"I dunno. I don't think it is nervous. I like the car on the limit in a neutral situation, which sometimes can be nervous, which I appear not to have a problem with."

I think the above can also inform his struggles with Merc a tad. He loved a skittish car and he would use that for his speed, I remember reading that he used trail-braking (if anyone rides a motorcycle, you might be familiar with this), which is a bit of a rare thing in a car as it can send the front end away from you. The cars with Merc had a lot of grip, not as much as the RB or McLaren in those years, which would explain a bit more on his performances etc.

It also explains how he was able to muscle the Benetton and early Ferraris as he did to win races and challenge for championships.

flazio

pjohnson wrote: »

McLaren might actually pose a challenge to Mercedes once given the same engine.

They don't have the same resources at the factory that Mercedes-Benz have. I know they were essentialy the Mercedes-Benz team late nineties through the 00s but they lost a lot of people during the recession that they haven't recovered. I still think they might give Red Bull the odd headache however.

Frank Bullitt

pjohnson wrote: »

McLaren might actually pose a challenge to Mercedes once given the same engine.

Saw this a while back, goes through some of the issues that McLaren might run into with the switch to Merc and how it might stop some of the progress due to the token system being adopted for 2021.

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah and that might be satisfying on one level, but red bull moving backwards to Renault means a championship battle is even less likely for the foreseeable future.

As it stands were looking at Honda not investing much in next year's engine so that's not going to be any better than this year. 2022 will be a new supplier for red bull whether it's Renault or a Red bull collaboration developing the Honda. So that won't be any more competitive in its first year.


If it's Renault then it's probably status quo until the new engine formula in 2026. If it's a red bull collaboration engine then it's likely 2023-24 by the time it could be in a better position, relative to Mercedes, than right now.

In short, it's no laughing matter. F1 could be close to death if nobody can challenge Mercedes until then.

How much development is allowed from 2022-26? Because unless an overhaul is allowed rather than token-type bull**** Mercedes have it wrapped up til '26.

Gintonious wrote: »

This is also a great read, it tells of his first time driving for Ferrari at a test.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/152108/autosport-70-the-first-story-of-schumacher-at-ferrari

This quote in it also stands out to me about how he liked his car set-up:


I think the above can also inform his struggles with Merc a tad. He loved a skittish car and he would use that for his speed, I remember reading that he used trail-braking (if anyone rides a motorcycle, you might be familiar with this), which is a bit of a rare thing in a car as it can send the front end away from you. The cars with Merc had a lot of grip, not as much as the RB or McLaren in those years, which would explain a bit more on his performances etc.

It also explains how he was able to muscle the Benetton and early Ferraris as he did to win races and challenge for championships.

Most of the cars now have a limit that's easy to get close to and they can't be "muscled" so much. The Red Bull is probably the exception near the front. Even at times in 2010-2013 only Vettel could get ultimate performance from it. Despite what I often say on here I think Hamilton would be able to keep up with Verstappen in it, most drivers wouldn't. At the same time most drivers would get much closer to Hamilton if they were in a Merc than they would to Max in a Red Bull.
While the Merc while Schumacher was there had less grip than RB/Ferrari/McLaren, it had a suitable amount of grip so wasn't on the edge. Pushing harder in most of the modern F1 cars gives much less return than the old ones, mostly IMO because of how complex they are. How much can the drivers set up and use the brakes as they want to? With servos and regen the window is pretty narrow. When it comes to changing downforce levels it used to be worth putting a few turns in or out of the front wing. Obviously tyre-only stops are what probably put paid to that but how would you even go about adjusting the 16 vanes and elements on each side of the front wing? :pac:

quokula

Gintonious wrote: »

This is also a great read, it tells of his first time driving for Ferrari at a test.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/152108/autosport-70-the-first-story-of-schumacher-at-ferrari

This quote in it also stands out to me about how he liked his car set-up:


I think the above can also inform his struggles with Merc a tad. He loved a skittish car and he would use that for his speed, I remember reading that he used trail-braking (if anyone rides a motorcycle, you might be familiar with this), which is a bit of a rare thing in a car as it can send the front end away from you. The cars with Merc had a lot of grip, not as much as the RB or McLaren in those years, which would explain a bit more on his performances etc.

It also explains how he was able to muscle the Benetton and early Ferraris as he did to win races and challenge for championships.

There's a good video explaining some of that here:

El_Duderino 09

[Deleted User] wrote: »

How much development is allowed from 2022-26? Because unless an overhaul is allowed rather than token-type bull**** Mercedes have it wrapped up til '26.

I don't know to be honest. Given Mercedes proficiency in every area of the car, particularly the engine, I'd imagine they will would always have a strong engine no matter what the rules.

I'm ambivalent about the token system. The token system limits Mercedes development too. Getting rid of the token system could result in Mercedes gaining an even bigger advantage year on year.

Frank Bullitt

quokula wrote: »

There's a good video explaining some of that here:

Love how Herbert says "it is nothing special" and then they show the data which tells us otherwise

Harika

Tsunoda to test for Alpha tauri on Wednesday the 4th of November. While red bull stated he made it to their team based on merit can't help myself that this is to sweet talk honda in unofficially supporting the team or to help the transition.
Honda was in a similar position before when 2009 they decided to quit and Brawn decided to buy it, and they decided to do so because they had a contract with him until 2012 so decided to hand the team over to him

ELM327

Harika wrote: »

Tsunoda to test for Alpha tauri on Wednesday the 4th of November. While red bull stated he made it to their team based on merit can't help myself that this is to sweet talk honda in unofficially supporting the team or to help the transition.
Honda was in a similar position before when 2009 they decided to quit and Brawn decided to buy it, and they decided to do so because they had a contract with him until 2012 so decided to hand the team over to him

The difference there is in 2009 the engines were withdrawn. It was Brawn Mercedes.

AMKC

Harika wrote: »

Tsunoda to test for Alpha tauri on Wednesday the 4th of November. While red bull stated he made it to their team based on merit can't help myself that this is to sweet talk honda in unofficially supporting the team or to help the transition.
Honda was in a similar position before when 2009 they decided to quit and Brawn decided to buy it, and they decided to do so because they had a contract with him until 2012 so decided to hand the team over to him

So does that mean they are thinking are planning to have him drive for Alpha Tauri or even Red Bull itself and if so who loses out? If it was Red Bull I I think that Alex that will lose out but I Alpha there is two very good drivers there so why mess with that?

ELM327 wrote: »

The difference there is in 2009 the engines were withdrawn. It was Brawn Mercedes.

I also wondered if Honda had of continued into 2009 would the car have had the double diffuser or did Brawn or someone else a designer maybe think of that after Honda had left the team?

El_Duderino 09

AMKC wrote: »

So does that mean they are thinking are planning to have him drive for Alpha Tauri or even Red Bull itself and if so who loses out? If it was Red Bull I I think that Alex that will lose out but I Alpha there is two very good drivers there so why mess with that?

Is Kvyat very good? I'd say he's only OK/grand.

He used to be liable to crash and was nicknamed the torpedo by Vettel (the irony). He's sorted that out but Gasley has the measure of Kvyat all season.

If Kvyat is very good then how good is Gasley?

AMKC

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Is Kvyat very good? I'd say he's only OK/grand.

He used to be liable to crash and was nicknamed the torpedo by Vettel (the irony). He's sorted that out but Gasley has the measure of Kvyat alm season.

If Kvyat is very good then how good is Gasley?

Daniel Kvyat is good and Gasley is very good. Yes Kvyat went through some bad times but has improved lots. I have not heard anyone say anything bad against him recently just against Alex who is not performing good enough.

ELM327

AMKC wrote: »

Daniel Kvyat is good and Gasley is very good. Yes Kvyat went through some bad times but has improved lots. I have not heard anyone say anything bad against him recently just against Alex who is not performing good enough.

Agree.
No one competes with Max, but Gasly >>Kyvat>>Albon for me anyway.


I'd probably give Albon the boot and put Hulk in the redbull.

El_Duderino 09

AMKC wrote: »

Daniel Kvyat is good and Gasley is very good. Yes Kvyat went through some bad times but has improved lots. I have not heard anyone say anything bad against him recently just against Alex who is not performing good enough.

Yeah but all three of them have been promoted to Red Bull with Max as a teammate and all three had the same experience in the second red bull seat they all go back to TR/AT and I think both Albon and Gasley had the measure of Kvyat.

Kvyat isn't a bad driver but I'd think that if they want to drop a driver it would be a pretty easy choice if it's based on which is the least fast of the three. There might be more considerations such as the Russian market (and Albon gives an advantage in the south east Asian market).

I don't have anything against Kvyat. I just think we've had a unique opportunity to measure 4 drivers with some solid benchmarks that very rarely happen in F1. All three have been paired with Max and been soundly beaten and dropped back to TR/AT. All three of those drivers have been teammates in the same car. So I think we can safely say Kvyat was beaten by both Gasley and Albon.

skipper_G

AMKC wrote: »

So does that mean they are thinking are planning to have him drive for Alpha Tauri or even Red Bull itself and if so who loses out? If it was Red Bull I I think that Alex that will lose out but I Alpha there is two very good drivers there so why mess with that?




I also wondered if Honda had of continued into 2009 would the car have had the double diffuser or did Brawn or someone else a designer maybe think of that after Honda had left the team?

There's no chance Tsunoda is getting the Red Bull seat, he's talented but he ain't that talented. Alpha Tauri probably in place of Kvyat.

El_Duderino 09

ELM327 wrote: »

Agree.
No one competes with Max, but Gasly >>Kyvat>>Albon for me anyway.


I'd probably give Albon the boot and put Hulk in the redbull.

I just looked up the stats from last year and Albon and Kvyat were very even. The only factor I would include is that it was Albon's rookie season. If an experienced driver draws equal with a rookie then the rookie wins by virtue if his likelihood of improving quickly over the next couple of seasons.

Lots of people assume the Red Bull is a very good car. I don't think the evidence agrees with that conclusion. If drivers are being hammered by Max in the RB and then go back to AT and perform about the same as before but a few places further up the order, then the logical conclusion is that the RB is only slightly better than the AT and Max isn't just good, he's excellent.

Harika

Media spinning now the narrative that Perez/ Hulk to partner verstappen while clearly that's not red bulls Problem zone. Their car is good enough for second in constructors but not able to constantly challenge Mercedes.
For AT Kyvat was fired several times already and is outperformed by gasly. If you keep the old drivers instead of the junior drivers what's the point of the junior program?
Tsunoda will be promoted when he gets the super license to keep Honda close for future relationships. Kyvat will be dropped, gasly can shine further and rebuild his mojo in case Albon becomes a liability.

ELM327

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I just looked up the stats from last year and Albon and Kvyat were very even. The only factor I would include is that it was Albon's rookie season. If an experienced driver draws equal with a rookie then the rookie wins by virtue if his likelihood of improving quickly over the next couple of seasons.

Lots of people assume the Red Bull is a very good car. I don't think the evidence agrees with that conclusion. If drivers are being hammered by Max in the RB and then go back to AT and perform about the same as before but a few places further town the order, then the logical conclusion is that the RB is only slightly better than the AT and Max isn't just good, he's excellent.

Agree to both, especially about the RB car. Max is like Schumacher in the 96 ferrari in that car, the level he elevates it.


I havent seen much about albon to warrant anything exceptional. He's behind Gasly for sure, if he's slightly ahead of kvyat that's still mediocre IMO

ELM327

Harika wrote: »

Media spinning now the narrative that Perez/ Hulk to partner verstappen while clearly that's not red bulls Problem zone. Their car is good enough for second in constructors but not able to constantly challenge Mercedes.
For AT Kyvat was fired several times already and is outperformed by gasly. If you keep the old drivers instead of the junior drivers what's the point of the junior program?
Tsunoda will be promoted when he gets the super license to keep Honda close for future relationships. Kyvat will be dropped, gasly can shine further and rebuild his mojo in case Albon becomes a liability.

Verstappen and Hulk would do a lot better than Verstappen on his own (as it is now)

Harika

ELM327 wrote: »

Verstappen and Hulk would do a lot better than Verstappen on his own (as it is now)

I like your crystal ball, and that a ten year veteran of no podium should be the solution to red bulls uncompetitive car.
It's getting into Kubica Territory.

ELM327

Harika wrote: »

I like your crystal ball, and that a ten year veteran of no podium should be the solution to red bulls uncompetitive car.
It's getting into Kubica Territory.

Well that's a bit nonsense
Look at Hulkenberg's performances this year at no notice compared to Albon!

pjohnson

Harika wrote: »

I like your crystal ball, and that a ten year veteran of no podium should be the solution to red bulls uncompetitive car.
It's getting into Kubica Territory.

LOL did you not JUST say that RB is good enough for 2nd in the constructors? Yet Albon has only manage to get the second best car to 4th place or better twice. IF he is in the second best car (as you just said) he is clearly not cutting it. Its not about podiums its about (at a bare minimum) regularly getting the maximum amount of points you can from both drivers.

quokula

Yeah the evidence is growing that Max is simply exceptional. Albon and Gasly are decent drivers and Gasly could certainly win more races in the right seat some day. For now, someone like Hulkenberg or Perez would be a definite improvement, but I couldn't see them holding a candle to Max either. I don't think there's a single driver in F1 today that could, other than maybe Alonso if he hasn't lost too much in his time away.

I do think there's merit in someone like Hulk having the experience and temperament to just keep plugging away and getting the best they can out of the car, regardless of what Max does, without letting his head drop like the younger drivers tend to. If Red Bull do want to make the most of their young drivers, putting them up against Verstappen so early in their careers may not be the way to do it.

Harika

ELM327 wrote: »

Well that's a bit nonsense
Look at Hulkenberg's performances this year at no notice compared to Albon!

Hulkenberg over the years always showed glimpse of it, starting in Brasil 2010. He shined as super sub, does this over shine his 10 years of F1 ?
Albon was kicked out from winning the Austrian GP, finally made his first podium.
Hulk in a red bull would challenge verstappen is the same as "Kubica in a Mercedes will win" if only someone would grant them a drive to proof themselves....

pjohnson

Harika wrote: »

Hulkenberg over the years always showed glimpse of it, starting in Brasil 2010. He shined as super sub, does this over shine his 10 years of F1 ?
Albon was kicked out from winning the Austrian GP, finally made his first podium.
Hulk in a red bull would challenge verstappen is the same as "Kubica in a Mercedes will win" if only someone would grant them a drive to proof themselves....

If only someone had said that so that your point would make sense......

Burkie1203

ELM327 wrote: »

Agree.
No one competes with Max, but Gasly >>Kyvat>>Albon for me anyway.


I'd probably give Albon the boot and put Hulk in the redbull.

Perez brings some significant sponsorship with him and Red Bull are losing Aston Martin presumably?