Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

ELM327

BikeRacer wrote: »

I see the mental gymnastics have peaked.
Imagine someone in their rookie year stringing 9 podiums together in his opening 9 races, with the reigning world champion as his teammate and call that 'struggled'. He embarrassed Alonso that year by beating him in the championship. To say anything else is delusional.

The alonso which even mclaren admitted were not supporting the same as lewis?
Nothing about Button, Rosberg et al, the mediocre list of opponents lewis didnt defeat?

skipper_G

ELM327 wrote: »

The alonso which even mclaren admitted were not supporting the same as lewis?
Nothing about Button, Rosberg et al, the mediocre list of opponents lewis didnt defeat?

You're calling Button and Rosberg mediocre, that's total crap. They are World Champions for crying out loud, something only 33 people have ever done. BikeRacer is right, it's mental gymnastics.

ELM327

skipper_G wrote: »

You're calling Button and Rosberg mediocre, that's total crap. They are World Champions for crying out loud, something only 33 people have ever done. BikeRacer is right, it's mental gymnastics.

Button is a wdc because of Brawn and only because of brawn. They exploited a loophole for about 10 races and managed to hold on. Rubens "Number 2" Barrichello was second that year FFS because of the car.

Rosberg the same, he had a couple of above average races in the williams but he would not have won without the exponential dominance of the mercs.



They were both mediocre. Look where button was in '08 or '10.
They are at the level of Perez. Good solid mid tier but nowhere near top tier drivers.

skipper_G

ELM327 wrote: »

Button is a wdc because of Brawn and only because of brawn. They exploited a loophole for about 10 races and managed to hold on. Rubens "Number 2" Barrichello was second that year FFS because of the car.

Rosberg the same, he had a couple of above average races in the williams but he would not have won without the exponential dominance of the mercs.



They were both mediocre. Look where button was in '08 or '10.
They are at the level of Perez. Good solid mid tier but nowhere near top tier drivers.

I'm not debating it with you, I'm pointing out the fact that you're wrong.

ELM327

skipper_G wrote: »

I'm not debating it with you, I'm pointing out the fact that you're wrong.

Fair enough.
Everyone knows once you bring out the FACT you are right, I can't argue with your FACT. :rolleyes:

Cork Trucker

ELM327 wrote: »

Button is a wdc because of Brawn and only because of brawn. They exploited a loophole for about 10 races and managed to hold on. Rubens "Number 2" Barrichello was second that year FFS because of the car.

Rosberg the same, he had a couple of above average races in the williams but he would not have won without the exponential dominance of the mercs.



They were both mediocre. Look where button was in '08 or '10.
They are at the level of Perez. Good solid mid tier but nowhere near top tier drivers.

Barrichello wasn’t second that year (2009), Vettel was.

AMKC

ELM327 wrote: »

Button is a wdc because of Brawn and only because of brawn. They exploited a loophole for about 10 races and managed to hold on. Rubens "Number 2" Barrichello was second that year FFS because of the car.

Rosberg the same, he had a couple of above average races in the williams but he would not have won without the exponential dominance of the mercs.



They were both mediocre. Look where button was in '08 or '10.
They are at the level of Perez. Good solid mid tier but nowhere near top tier drivers.

I disagree. They are both much better than mediocre.
Jenson but up a good fight in 09 and Rosberg in 16. Yes they were both lucky with there cars but so had Hamilton been. Who knows if Jenson had of stayed at what became Mercedes instead of going to McLaren in 10 that maybe he would have been a 5, 6 or even 7 time WDC and Lewis could still only be a 1 time WDC driver. It's the luck of the draw as much as it is the driver too.

ELM327

AMKC wrote: »

I disagree. They are both much better than mediocre.
Jenson but up a good fight in 09 and Rosberg in 16. Yes they were both lucky with there cars but so had Hamilton been. Who knows if Jenson had of stayed at what became Mercedes instead of going to McLaren in 10 that maybe he would have been a 5, 6 or even 7 time WDC and Lewis could still only be a 1 time WDC driver. It's the luck of the draw as much as it is the driver too.

Mediocre means middle of the pack. Non remarkable.
"of only average quality; not very good."


It should be noted that I would not consider lewis much more than mediocre. Certainly not in the Alonso, Michael Schumacher, Senna, Hakkinen category

ELM327

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Barrichello wasn’t second that year (2009), Vettel was.

Right you are. I always thought that was a 1-2 year for brawn, but checking it up, Rubens was third


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Formula_One_World_Championship

El_Duderino 09

I don't class Button as mediocre in terms of drivers in general but i would class him below the median in terms of champions.

Eddie Irvine was almost a champion too and I would have also classed him as below the median of WDCs

klose

Only following F1 since this year but I find it confusing that some people here seem to want to totally discredit world champions? Hamilton gets regularly talked down despite breaking records the whole time (yeah he's easy to dislike I know) saw vettel getting talked down a whole back, who do people think are genuinely great drivers lately? Cause it seems like it's all down to the car and you can put anyone behind the wheel the way some are talked about.?

billybonkers

The problem isn't Lewis. It is the utter dominance of Mercedes, whoever is in those seats will be winning races and championships

El_Duderino 09

klose wrote: »

Only following F1 since this year but I find it confusing that some people here seem to want to totally discredit world champions? Hamilton gets regularly talked down despite breaking records the whole time (yeah he's easy to dislike I know) saw vettel getting talked down a whole back, who do people think are genuinely great drivers lately? Cause it seems like it's all down to the car and you can put anyone behind the wheel the way some are talked about.?

Being a champion in 2013 doesn’t mean a driver is on good form in 2020 - that’s the Vettel situation.

Hamilton just doesn’t have anyone to challenge him. If you listen to him tell the story then it sounds like he’s dragging a crap car around the track on bad tyres. But the fact is we just don’t know how good he is or isn’t and the number of championships only makes the question more interesting without answering it.

I think the top drivers are Hamilton and Max in the top category, then the likes of LeClerc, Ricciardo, and it gets harder to rank them after that. Sainz, Norris, Gasley, Russell could all be in the second tier but it’s too hard to judge their performance

2011

klose wrote: »

Only following F1 since this year but I find it confusing that some people here seem to want to totally discredit world champions? Hamilton gets regularly talked down despite breaking records the whole time (yeah he's easy to dislike I know) saw vettel getting talked down a whole back, who do people think are genuinely great drivers lately? Cause it seems like it's all down to the car and you can put anyone behind the wheel the way some are talked about.?

My two favorites would be Max and Leclerc.

Many believe that slightly above average drivers can win world championships given the right car.
This is not a new theory.

Let’s not loose sight of the fact that Bottas had a different team mate even he could be leading the world championship.

vectra

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

"So the next question is: To what do you attribute the performance gap from Leclerc back to Vettel?

Can you think of any ways to measure their relative performances which would paint Vettel in a positive light compared to his young teammate?"

How can I ( an outsider ) attribute the performance gap when the team cannot?

El_Duderino 09

vectra wrote: »

How can I ( an outsider ) attribute the performance gap when the team cannot?

Do you even know if there’s a gap between LeClerc and Vettel on recent form?

Has it occurred to you that one driver might just be faster than the other -y’know, the absolutely normal reason for a consistent performance gap between teammates?

pjohnson

Seriously

AMKC

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Do you even know if there’s a gap between LeClerc and Vettel on recent form?

Has it occurred to you that one driver might just be faster than the other -y’know, the absolutely normal reason for a consistent performance gap between teammates?

I would say Leclerc is faster than Vettel but only because he is younger and has less fear. If you could take the Vettel from 8 years ago and put him beside Leclerc it could be a lot different and we would know for sure then if it's the vettel of now or the car.

This is it

AMKC wrote: »

I would say Leclerc is faster than Vettel but only because he is younger and has less fear. If you could take the Vettel from 8 years ago and put him beside Leclerc it could be a lot different and we would know for sure then if it's the vettel of now or the car.

No point making a comparison between a young Vettel and a young LeClerc when's it's their current form that's being discussed. If you put LeClerc and Vettel in the exact same car, which for the record I've no reason to believe that is not currently the case, LeClerc would be/is faster.

I like Vettel, I don't like how Ferrari have treated him and I really hope he does well next year, but I can say, objectively, that LeClerc is currently a faster driver.

El_Duderino 09

pjohnson wrote: »

Seriously

Yeah, you’ve done that same gay-joke before.

Man with broke phone

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah, you’ve done that same gay-joke before.

I thought only one of you were girls. It probably wasnt a gay joke in fairness. Duderino is feminine name but naturally presume everybody else is male for some reason.

El_Duderino 09

This is it wrote: »

No point making a comparison between a young Vettel and a young LeClerc when's it's their current form that's being discussed. If you put LeClerc and Vettel in the exact same car, which for the record I've no reason to believe that is not currently the case, LeClerc would be/is faster.

I like Vettel, I don't like how Ferrari have treated him and I really hope he does well next year, but I can say, objectively, that LeClerc is currently a faster driver.

This is precisely correct and it’s based on the observable evidence.

But isn’t it interesting to see the lengths people will go to deny the obvious truth? Some invent conspiracies about Ferrari sabotaging one of its drivers, giving him an inferior car - pretending we need to know where the time his lost before we can even observe the fact that he’s not as fast as LeClerc.

FWIW, I like Vettel too. But the question of a driver’s form isn’t about how likeable the driver is, it’s about how they’re performing on track. And Vettel is performing terribly in comparison to his young teammate.

pjohnson

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah, you’ve done that same gay-joke before.

Yeah and you've done the same Vettel is slow/Ferrari are cheaters shtick many many times before but that doesn't stop you.

El_Duderino 09

Man with broke phone wrote: »

I thought only one of you were girls. It probably wasnt a gay joke in fairness. Duderino is feminine name but naturally presume everybody else is male for some reason.

Well, o at the end means it’s a masculine noun in Spanish. A would suggest feminine.
Oh right, you know a lot of women named Duderino? Lol.

It was just a little gay-joke which the same poster enjoys doing.

Gay-jokes and Spanish nouns are all a bit off topic though, aren’t they?

pjohnson

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Well, o at the end means it’s a masculine noun in Spanish. A would suggest feminine.
Oh right, you know a lot of women named Duderino? Lol.

It was just a little gay-joke which the same poster enjoys doing.

Gay-jokes and Spanish nouns are all a bit off topic though, aren’t they?

Not a gay-joke at all dont know or care what genitals you have and its irrelevant anyway.

The point is that your constant bickering and fixation on a poster and the tedious tit-for-tat is akin to a lovers tiff. It doesnt really matter if the lovers are gay/straight/bi when the sex is involved.

Man with broke phone

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Well, o at the end means it’s a masculine noun in Spanish. A would suggest feminine.
Oh right, you know a lot of women named Duderino? Lol.

It was just a little gay-joke which the same poster enjoys doing.

Gay-jokes and Spanish nouns are all a bit off topic though, aren’t they?

Meh , couldnt be bothered with spanish stuff.

Keep fighting the good fight.

El_Duderino 09

pjohnson wrote: »

Yeah and you've done the same Vettel is slow/Ferrari are cheaters shtick many many times before but that doesn't stop you.

Yeah, it’s amazing that such an observable fact is a contested topic of discussion. Mad, isn’t it?

El_Duderino 09

pjohnson wrote: »

Not a gay-joke at all dont know or care what genitals you have and its irrelevant anyway.

The point is that your constant bickering and fixation on a poster and the tedious tit-for-tat is akin to a lovers tiff. It doesnt really matter if the lovers are gay/straight/bi when the sex is involved.

Sure, sure. If you do t like the chat, don’t take part in it. I’m not making you do anything you don’t want to do.

Charlie-Bravo

I'm no particular fan of Lewis. But if he signed up with Red Bull for next year I would have a newfound respect for him! Then we can enjoy a race season watching the two 'top' drivers in the same machinery.

But alas, Lewis is drawing this out a little.

Dont be at yourself

It's an interesting question, if Hamilton moved to RB alongside Max, and Russell or Ocon moved to Merc, how would the 2021 drivers championship look? I'd say:

Max
Hamilton
Bottas
Russell/Ocon

I wouldn't have much between Bottas and Russell.