Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

SCOOP 64

Dont be at yourself wrote: »

It's an interesting question, if Hamilton moved to RB alongside Max, and Russell or Ocon moved to Merc, how would the 2021 drivers championship look? I'd say:

Max
Hamilton
Bottas
Russell/Ocon

I wouldn't have much between Bottas and Russell.

Max and Hamilton would take each other out every second race, so Bottas or Russell.

cadaliac

SCOOP 64 wrote: »

Max and Hamilton would take each other out every second race, so Bottas or Russell.

This is a point missed by some I think.

The difference between top tier drivers and second tier drivers is very marginal. I think if everyone had the exact same car there would be very little in it. There isn't much in it at the moment apart from the Merc dominance. All the F1 drivers are exceptionally talented with the exception of a few who only last a year or so.

What separates good from great drivers is the will to win. To take the risk.
To effectively bully someone off the track as he thinks it is his track.
The utter determination to win. At all costs.
Hamilton has it in spades. Schumacher had it in spades, as did all the great drivers including Vettle and Alonso.
Max has this utter determination to be the very best at all costs and will stop at pretty much nothing to get there.

This is exactly what you and I all want to see. Well, I certainly do.
Running someone off the track is a bit severs but lets look at some of the drivers mentioned above. Each and all are guilty no more that the Great MS himself. Remember him parking the Ferrarri on the corner in Monte Carlo to stop the qualifying and thus rendering him pole?
Remember Vettle and Danny Rick taking themselves out, Alonso and Hamilton having good old dust ups also?

To me, Hamilton's consistency has to be applauded. He generally doesn't make mistakes and has what it takes to get into the best car. I don't think he's the best driver of all time but the stats are saying something different. He has that will to win, the pure driving skill when in the lead and manages the races effectively - understanding quick changes that need to be made and questions the pit wall every time.
Let's face it, if he didn't do that he wouldn't have that will to win, or take every single point. His motivation for the fastest lap is apparently "getting every single point available"
That's winner talk. All the F1 guys complain about the cars, tyres, fuel what time of the day it is etc. That's just normal in my eyes. That's looking for an edge over your competitor.

Unfortunately, I don't think Merc will put a tier 1 driver in with him as they have found out in the past is isn't as profitable a one would think. A solid 1 2 for Merc and they are happy.
For the record, I think Leclerc and Max are tier 1 drivers also.
Edit: I am not a Hamilton fan at all, really don't like him or hearing him speak. I can't put my finger on it, but as I said, he has merit as a driver.

Top Dog

Some depressing numbers after the weekend;
It was Mercedes' 100th win since the introduction of the hybrid era.
Since the hybrid era began, Mercedes have won 74.6% of the races.

Frank Bullitt

Top Dog wrote: »

Some depressing numbers after the weekend;
It was Mercedes' 100th win since the introduction of the hybrid era.
Since the hybrid era began, Mercedes have won 74.6% of the races.

That will probably upset Mercedes.

2011

Top Dog wrote: »

Some depressing numbers after the weekend;
It was Mercedes' 100th win since the introduction of the hybrid era.
Since the hybrid era began, Mercedes have won 74.6% of the races.

Depressing stats.

I have no doubt that those that see Hamilton as the best driver in F1 do not consider Bottas as the 2nd best in F1.

I agree with cadaliac‘s point about Hamilton’s winning attitude and hunger to win. That is why I would like to see him remain in F1 in anything other than a Merc.
I would love to see Hamilton use that stubborn determination in a car that “shouldn’t” win but somehow does.

vectra

2011 wrote: »

Depressing stats.

I have no doubt that those that see Hamilton as the best driver in F1 do not consider Bottas as the 2nd best in F1.

I agree with cadaliac‘s point about Hamilton’s winning attitude and hunger to win. That is why I would like to see him remain in F1 in anything other than a Merc.
I would love to see Hamilton use that stubborn determination in a car that “shouldn’t” win but somehow does.

He wasn't that great when he didn't have the best car.

vectra

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Do you even know if there’s a gap between LeClerc and Vettel on recent form?

Has it occurred to you that one driver might just be faster than the other -y’know, the absolutely normal reason for a consistent performance gap between teammates?

A Gap
What gap? :rolleyes::D

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

This is precisely correct and it’s based on the observable evidence.

But isn’t it interesting to see the lengths people will go to deny the obvious truth? Some invent conspiracies about Ferrari sabotaging one of its drivers, giving him an inferior car - pretending we need to know where the time his lost before we can even observe the fact that he’s not as fast as LeClerc.

FWIW, I like Vettel too. But the question of a driver’s form isn’t about how likeable the driver is, it’s about how they’re performing on track. And Vettel is performing terribly in comparison to his young teammate.

You mean like your conspiricy that they cheated last year instead of using a grey area in the rules?


Anyhow,
Back to Vettel's dilemma.
Mattia is a bit confused himself. But said it is the teams duty to help Vettel get the maximum out of the car.

Glico Man

To be fair to Hamilton, he has won at least 1 race in every year he's been on the grid, and some of those years he hasn't been in the best machine.

Not that I'm his biggest fan, but jeez lads, you don't have to play his down his achievements and accolades every chance you get. It does get tiresome reading that you don't like him almost every day in here.

El_Duderino 09

vectra wrote: »

A Gap
What gap? :rolleyes::D



You mean like your conspiricy that they cheated last year instead of using a grey area in the rules?


Anyhow,
Back to Vettel's dilemma.
Mattia is a bit confused himself. But said it is the teams duty to help Vettel get the maximum out of the car.

So you don't even acknowledge the gap between Vettel and Leclerc? The gap in speed, the gap in performance, the gap in qualifying head-to-head stats, the gap in finishing positions and points scored. How can you deny things that are so obvious?

vectra

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So you don't even acknowledge the gap between Vettel and Leclerc? The gap in speed, the gap in performance, the gap in qualifying head-to-head stats, the gap in finishing positions and points scored. How can you deny things that are so obvious?

Dear baby Jesus take me now. :pac::pac::pac:
Was it not obvious to you that was a sarcastic comment :rolleyes:

quokula

Dont be at yourself wrote: »

It's an interesting question, if Hamilton moved to RB alongside Max, and Russell or Ocon moved to Merc, how would the 2021 drivers championship look? I'd say:

Max
Hamilton
Bottas
Russell/Ocon

I wouldn't have much between Bottas and Russell.

Russell (or whoever they hire) would win the title by a mile, Bottas in second, Max third with Hamilton a distant fourth.

muckwarrior

quokula wrote: »

Russell (or whoever they hire) would win the title by a mile, Bottas in second, Max third with Hamilton a distant fourth.

I couldn't see Ocon beating Bottas by a mile. I'd say it'd be very close in fact. Both solid, mid-level drivers.

Russell, maybe. He's clearly very good, but it's hard to say just how good due to both his team mates being unknown quantities.

El_Duderino 09

Glico Man wrote: »

To be fair to Hamilton, he has won at least 1 race in every year he's been on the grid, and some of those years he hasn't been in the best machine.

Not that I'm his biggest fan, but jeez lads, you don't have to play his down his achievements and accolades every chance you get. It does get tiresome reading that you don't like him almost every day in here.

It shows how fans mistake performance for likeability. Hamilton is a great performer but very low on likeability and he's rated as a mix of the two. If you strip out the likeability then he shoots up the standings. He has generally been very good.

Button got the best of him in one of their three seasons together in 2011, which was unexpected but was also a great season for Button. Button was a good driver but I wouldn't have rated him as good as Hamilton which is borne out by the overal 2-1 to hamilton. Was that back when he was going out with Nicole Sherzinger? That seemed like a bad time for him. His form wasn't great around then (but i'm not sure if that was when he was teamed with Button or if it was a couple of years later).

ELM327

muckwarrior wrote: »

I couldn't see Ocon beating Bottas by a mile. I'd say it'd be very close in fact. Both solid, mid-level drivers.

Russell, maybe. He's clearly very good, but it's hard to say just how good due to both his team mates being unknown quantities.

Agree about ocon. He's similarly mediocre as bottas.
I think Russell has potential but he's got the same bias from the media that Lewis has - because he's british. Same as for British soccer players, the media hype them up to the fact that people believe above average sportsmen are on a par with god tier sportsmen that are not english.


I'd put Russell alongside Ricciardo. One step down from Alonso, MSC etc. Similar level to Lewis.

ELM327

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It shows how fans mistake performance for likeability. Hamilton is a great performer but very low on likeability and he's rated as a mix of the two. If you strip out the likeability then he shoots up the standings. He has generally been very good.

Button got the best of him in one of their three seasons together in 2011, which was unexpected but was also a great season for Button. Button was a good driver but I wouldn't have rated him as good as Hamilton which is borne out by the overal 2-1 to hamilton. Was that back when he was going out with Nicole Sherzinger? That seemed like a bad time for him. His form wasn't great around then (but i'm not sure if that was when he was teamed with Button or if it was a couple of years later).

Lewis lost over the three years to "Middle of the Road" Button.

LollipopJimmy

I read Elvis Priestly's book recently enough. Fairly insightful into the goings on at McLaren when Hamilton arrived.

Fundamentally fans want to like the competitors, Hamilton just makes that so difficult. To be fair, he is trying harder and harder of late but when you're not sound you're not sound.

El_Duderino 09

ELM327 wrote: »

Lewis lost over the three years to "Middle of the Road" Button.

Some might say he’s middle of the road but that’s pretty clearly not true. Compared to drivers in general he was and well above average. Compared to other champions he probably isn’t in the top half. But the same could be said for 50% of champions so it’s not a bad group of peers to be compared with.

El_Duderino 09

vectra wrote: »

Dear baby Jesus take me now. :pac::pac::pac:
Was it not obvious to you that was a sarcastic comment :rolleyes:

No, it wasn't.

I was asking you if you even acknowledge the gap and it's pretty clear you're not inclined to admit the obvious things like the fact that Leclerc is way faster that Vettel and Vettel's recent form has been terrible. You've been pretty reluctant to answer any questions without needing to be asked again and again. Only yesterday you said we need to know WHERE a driver sis slower than their teammate before we can even observe that a driver is slower than their teammate. So I'd take nothing for granted.

So do you acknowledge that Leclerc is a lot faster than Vettel on recent form?

PukkaStukka

I am so getting fed up with this. :rolleyes:

vectra

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

No, it wasn't.

I was asking you if you even acknowledge the gap and it's pretty clear you're not inclined to admit the obvious things like the fact that Leclerc is way faster that Vettel and Vettel's recent form has been terrible. You've been pretty reluctant to answer any questions without needing to be asked again and again. Only yesterday you said we need to know WHERE a driver sis slower than their teammate before we can even observe that a driver is slower than their teammate. So I'd take nothing for granted.

So do you acknowledge that Leclerc is a lot faster than Vettel on recent form?

Well if that wasn't obvious to you.
Good luck :rolleyes:

T-Maxx

PukkaStukka wrote: »

I am so getting fed up with this. :rolleyes:

Click on name
Select "add to ignore list
Select "yes"

Done

PukkaStukka

T-Maxx wrote: »

Click on name
Select "add to ignore list
Select "yes"

Done

It's an option but not one I or anyone else should have to exercise though.

chicorytip

ELM327 wrote: »

Agree about ocon. He's similarly mediocre as bottas.
I think Russell has potential but he's got the same bias from the media that Lewis has - because he's british. Same as for British soccer players, the media hype them up to the fact that people believe above average sportsmen are on a par with god tier sportsmen that are not english.


I'd put Russell alongside Ricciardo. One step down from Alonso, MSC etc. Similar level to Lewis.

Russell, at present, would have to rank below Ricciardo and even Ocon simply based on results. He has yet to score a championship point which is mostly due to having an inadequate car but is a barrier to gaining promotion. Bottas had a good track record at Williams. The mistake Russell made at Imola was alarming and would cause doubts about him among potential employers.

Top Dog

Am I correct in thinking that at this stage there only 3 seats left unconfirmed for next season - 2 at Haas and the 2nd RedBull seat?

This is it

Top Dog wrote: »

Am I correct in thinking that at this stage there only 3 seats left unconfirmed for next season - 2 at Haas and the 2nd RedBull seat?

As far as I'm aware, yep that's correct

lfc200

Top Dog wrote: »

Am I correct in thinking that at this stage there only 3 seats left unconfirmed for next season - 2 at Haas and the 2nd RedBull seat?

Officially or unofficially?

Top Dog

lfc200 wrote: »

Officially or unofficially?

Either or really. Alpha Tauri released a video on YouTube today of Tsunoda's seat fitting, so while it might not be officially confirmed it's a done deal.

ELM327

Top Dog wrote: »

Am I correct in thinking that at this stage there only 3 seats left unconfirmed for next season - 2 at Haas and the 2nd RedBull seat?

Lewis has not signed yet.


Haas is rumored to be Mick Schumacher and Mazepin afaik.
2nd redbull is the only wildcard but likely to be checo or hulkenberg.


Is ocon confirmed for renault? If not I'd replace him with the odd one out from checo/hulk, ie whoever doesnt sign for RB

murphyebass

ELM327 wrote: »

Lewis has not signed yet.


Haas is rumored to be Mick Schumacher and Mazepin afaik.
2nd redbull is the only wildcard but likely to be checo or hulkenberg.


Is ocon confirmed for renault? If not I'd replace him with the odd one out from checo/hulk, ie whoever doesnt sign for RB

Is Ocon really up to it?

ELM327

Top Dog wrote: »

Either or really. Alpha Tauri released a video on YouTube today of Tsunoda's seat fitting, so while it might not be officially confirmed it's a done deal.

I dont understand why they would sign him.
I know he's a honda driver but honda are out of the sport at the end of 21
Perhaps this was a sweetener to get the IP for the engine?

murphyebass wrote: »

Is Ocon really up to it?

NO! That's why I'd replace him