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Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

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    #5522
    vectra
    Registered Users Posts: 15,542 ✭✭✭✭vectra


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    The car was capable of qualifying fourth at the weekend. Vettel only managed to get it to 13th.... it’s not all the car. The difference between 4th and 13th on the grid, is the driver...

    When it’s Albon or Latifi, we don’t need to make excuses, we just observe they’re not very good drivers and are being shown up by their teammates. Same for Vettel.


    The proof was 150% obvious it is the car.
    Russell in Hamiltons car being all the proof needed.
    At least Vettel finished the race in Shakir unlike his torpedo team mate.


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    #5523
    barryribs
    Registered Users Posts: 734 ✭✭✭barryribs


    ELM327 wrote: »
    In fairness to Damon, he wanted to retire and EJ wouldnt let him as he was under contract.

    Damon only wanted to quit mid season after Frentzen won in France. Apart from doing the bare minimum all season, parking a healthy car in Japan was unforgivable in my opinion.


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    #5524
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,226 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Yes and coming from Arrows in 1997, he won a race in 1998 in the Jordan along with several points finishes AFAIR. For '99 it was clear early on his head wasnt in it any more.


    Not comparable to schumacher who believed in the mercedes project, or Vettel who now is moving with hunger to win/challenge again.

    Not comparable from the drivers perspective but I’m talking about the team‘s perspective. Having a former world champion lends gravitas.

    What I’m saying is that he’s not being signed only for performance. He brings legitimacy to the team’s aspirations. Unless he’s way, way worse than stroll, I doubt they’d drop him after a year.


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    #5525
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,226 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    vectra wrote: »
    The proof was 150% obvious it is the car.
    Russell in Hamiltons car being all the proof needed.
    At least Vettel finished the race in Shakir unlike his torpedo team mate.

    He’s driving the same car as LeClerc and isn’t as fast. Russell was driving the same car as Bottas and was equally fast in quali and faster in the race.

    Is your point that the Mercedes car doesn’t suit Bottas?

    What point are you actually making?


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    #5526
    Jordan 199
    Registered Users Posts: 11,938 ✭✭✭✭Jordan 199


    I think Vettel will bounce back next season. I was thinking back to Frentzen who had a difficult time at Williams and his move to Jordan rejuvenated him.


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    #5527
    Joeface
    Registered Users Posts: 2,889 ✭✭✭Joeface


    Can see Vettel Getting some podiums next season , Not sure of a race win but at least looking like in contention. If the Racing Point Aston Martini Force India Jordan Is still a stable looking as it is . Which is enough to "vindicate" him I suppose . Cannot see a world Championship contention.

    If Hamliton is still there at the moment I cannot see past him getting Number 8 . mild challenge from Bottas for false hope . As for Redbull and Max , that area behind Mercedes will be a bit more compressed with Mclaren , Renault and Maybe Aston closing that Gap to Honda a bit more often .


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    #5528
    Infoanon
    Registered Users Posts: 4,652 ✭✭✭Infoanon


    barryribs wrote: »
    Damon only wanted to quit mid season after Frentzen won in France. Apart from doing the bare minimum all season, parking a healthy car in Japan was unforgivable in my opinion.

    That's simply not true - Damon Hills book 'Watching the wheels go by' gives a very honest insight to Damons state of mind and he wanted to retire at Silverstone but Eddie blocked it. Frentzens win in France was not the reason. After reading the book it's perfectly understandable why he parked - Lauda and Mansell have done the same


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    #5529
    Cork Trucker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    Infoanon wrote: »
    That's simply not true - Damon Hills book 'Watching the wheels go by' gives a very honest insight to Damons state of mind and he wanted to retire at Silverstone but Eddie blocked it. Frentzens win in France was not the reason. After reading the book it's perfectly understandable why he parked - Lauda and Mansell have done the same

    I haven't read the book, do tell.


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    #5530
    pjohnson
    Registered Users Posts: 23,602 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    Amongst all the instagram shenanigans of Russell and Bottas last night, Antonio Perez (Sergio's brother) uploaded an image of a fridge of Red Bull :pac:


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    #5531
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,989 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    barryribs wrote: »
    Damon only wanted to quit mid season after Frentzen won in France. Apart from doing the bare minimum all season, parking a healthy car in Japan was unforgivable in my opinion.
    It's not without precedent and if he wasnt allowed retire then it's acceptable IMO.


    There's an unwritten rule that you should be allowed retire.


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    #5532
    barryribs
    Registered Users Posts: 734 ✭✭✭barryribs


    Infoanon wrote: »
    That's simply not true - Damon Hills book 'Watching the wheels go by' gives a very honest insight to Damons state of mind and he wanted to retire at Silverstone but Eddie blocked it. Frentzens win in France was not the reason. After reading the book it's perfectly understandable why he parked - Lauda and Mansell have done the same

    I haven't read his book, but my understanding is that Damon didn't like the 4 grooved front tyres, was planning on retiring at the end of the year and then moved it forward to after Silverstone following Frentzen's win. He held a press conference to force Eddie's hand and Eddie held him to the contract - which is 100% reasonable.


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    #5533
    GarIT
    Registered Users Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    It's come out now that Russell said on Sunday he hopes he has caused driver line up headaches for Toto sooner than 2022.


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    #5534
    Jordan 199
    Registered Users Posts: 11,938 ✭✭✭✭Jordan 199


    pjohnson wrote: »
    Amongst all the instagram shenanigans of Russell and Bottas last night, Antonio Perez (Sergio's brother) uploaded an image of a fridge of Red Bull :pac:

    Anthony must have acquired the sales rights to Red Bull in Mexico ;)


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    #5535
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,989 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    GarIT wrote: »
    It's come out now that Russell said on Sunday he hopes he has caused driver line up headaches for Toto sooner than 2022.
    God I'd love if bottas was ousted and there was a capable driver in the merc alongside lewis


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    #5536
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,226 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    GarIT wrote: »
    It's come out now that Russell said on Sunday he hopes he has caused driver line up headaches for Toto sooner than 2022.

    Of course he does. Doesn’t mean it will happen. Considering they have Bottas signed it would mean signing Russell instead of Hamilton. And that ain’t going to happen.

    No harm in Russell hoping for it though. It’s only natural


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    #5537
    GarIT
    Registered Users Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Of course he does. Doesn’t mean it will happen. Considering they have Bottas signed it would mean signing Russell instead of Hamilton. And that ain’t going to happen.

    No harm in Russell hoping for it though. It’s only natural

    They don't have to let Bottas drive as long as they pay him. Could offer a swap and an engine discount to Williams. Maybe they could even just threaten to stop their current engine discount to Williams.


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    #5538
    pjohnson
    Registered Users Posts: 23,602 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Of course he does. Doesn’t mean it will happen. Considering they have Bottas signed it would mean signing Russell instead of Hamilton. And that ain’t going to happen.

    No harm in Russell hoping for it though. It’s only natural
    Well Perez was under contract with Racing Point for 2021.
    If Mercedes want Bottas outta the car he is gone contract be damned.


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    #5539
    Cork Trucker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Of course he does. Doesn’t mean it will happen. Considering they have Bottas signed it would mean signing Russell instead of Hamilton. And that ain’t going to happen.

    No harm in Russell hoping for it though. It’s only natural

    Contracts are made to be broken, plus Williams are under new ownership. Mercedes throw Bottas and Williams a few pound for him to go back to Grove and job done. Mercedes would recoup the money in PR and Marketing from Russell. Bottas is done one way or another now.


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    #5540
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,989 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Cork Trucker wrote: »
    Contracts are made to be broken, plus Williams are under new ownership. Mercedes throw Bottas and Williams a few pound for him to go back to Grove and job done. Mercedes would recoup the money in PR and Marketing from Russell. Bottas is done one way or another now.
    +1
    Or just pay him to sit out. It happens more than you'd expect in F1. Look at the sauber fiasco in (i think) 2014


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    #5541
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,226 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    GarIT wrote: »
    They don't have to let Bottas drive as long as they pay him. Could offer a swap and an engine discount to Williams. Maybe they could even just threaten to stop their current engine discount to Williams.

    So the pitch to Mercedes big knobs will be:
    Pay Bottas not to drive, pay Russell to drive, pay Williams for not running Russell. And the expected outcome of winning both champions will be exactly the same as just paying Bottas...

    It’s fun to imagine it happening but in reality, they’ll just wait until 2022.


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    #5542
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,989 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    So the pitch to Mercedes big knobs will be:
    Pay Bottas not to drive, pay Russell to drive, pay Williams for not running Russell. And the expected outcome of winning both champions will be exactly the same as just paying Bottas...

    It’s fun to imagine it happening but in reality, they’ll just wait until 2022.


    Russel is on peanuts compared to bottas.


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    #5543
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,226 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Russel is on peanuts compared to bottas.

    But the suggestion was they’d have to pay-off Bottas AND pay-off Williams AND then pay Russell. Russell’s pay would be the least of it. And what do they gain over keeping Bottas and Hamilton for next year? They’ll win both championships in any case.

    It would be great if they turned the whole thing on its head, fired Bottas, hired Russell and he beats Hamilton. Turns out the emperor has no clothes. Not The GOAT, just a goat.


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    #5544
    Cork Trucker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Russel is on peanuts compared to bottas.

    £/€175k for the season I believe


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    #5545
    Cork Trucker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    ELM327 wrote: »
    +1
    Or just pay him to sit out. It happens more than you'd expect in F1. Look at the sauber fiasco in (i think) 2014

    Even the Sauber situation aside, Ferrari paid off Raikkonen for 2010 so they could bring in Alonso.


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    #5546
    GarIT
    Registered Users Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    But the suggestion was they’d have to pay-off Bottas AND pay-off Williams AND then pay Russell. Russell’s pay would be the least of it. And what do they gain over keeping Bottas and Hamilton for next year? They’ll win both championships in any case.

    It would be great if they turned the whole thing on its head, fired Bottas, hired Russell and he beats Hamilton. Turns out the emperor has no clothes. Not The GOAT, just a goat.

    They gain marketing. They realise their brand is becoming toxic in F1.

    They have to pay Bottas either way. So the equation is really is the value of swapping in Russell worth more than the cost of swapping in Russell.


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    #5547
    pjohnson
    Registered Users Posts: 23,602 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    Cork Trucker wrote: »
    £/€175k for the season I believe

    Probably a large supplement from Mercedes on top of that as it stands anyway.


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    #5548
    Cork Trucker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    pjohnson wrote: »
    Probably a large supplement from Mercedes on top of that as it stands anyway.

    Oh aye without doubt


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    #5549
    Joeface
    Registered Users Posts: 2,889 ✭✭✭Joeface


    I took google this is probably the list that is the most accurate
    Some had Gasly and Kvyat on 5 and 2million respective . I doubt that .
    I am sure there is a big difference for some of these guys
    so if Williams are Paying George 175K that 750k below is a decent bump up
    I am sure the list has massive pinch of salt throw in

    1. Lewis Hamilton (Mercedes) : € 47m
    2. Sebastian Vettel (Ferrari) : € 35m
    3. Daniel Ricciardo (Renault) : € 20m
    4. Max Verstappen (RBR): € 16m
    5. Valtteri Bottas (Mercedes) : € 9m
    6. Charles Leclerc ( Ferrari ): € 9m
    7. Kimi Raikkonen ( Alfa Romeo ): € 6m
    8. Carlos Sainz (McLaren) : € 4.5m
    9. Sergio Perez ( Racing Point ): € 4m
    10. Esteban Ocon ( Renault ) : € 4m
    11. Romain Grosjean (Haas) : € 2m
    12. Kevin Magnussen (Haas) : € 2m
    13. Alex Albon (RBR) : € 2m
    14. Lando Norris (McLaren) : € 1.5m
    15. Lance Stroll (Racing Point) : € 1.5m
    16. Pierre Gasly (Alpha Tauri) : € 1m
    17. Daniil Kvyat (STR) : € 750,000
    18. George Russell ( Williams ): € 750,000
    19. Nicholas Latifi ( Williams) : € 750,000
    20. Antonio Giovinazzi ( Alfa Romeo): € 500,000


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    #5550
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,226 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    GarIT wrote: »
    They gain marketing. They realise their brand is becoming toxic in F1.

    Maybe. The evidence suggests Mercedes doesn’t want controversy or “negative” publicity. They want to efficiently win the championships even though you and I know that’s not the best way to do it. An internal battle between teammates would be the perfect solution as they’re still guaranteed the win AND get the publicity.

    But it would take a change of approach from Mercedes


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    #5551
    Infoanon
    Registered Users Posts: 4,652 ✭✭✭Infoanon


    Cork Trucker wrote: »
    I haven't read the book, do tell.

    Paraphrasing here - the loss of his father and the emotional and financial impact that had on his family greatly affected Damon.
    Damons biggest fear was leaving his wife and family in the same position and he wanted to stop before he got injured or worse.
    As an aside 2 of Damons teammates -Ayrton Senna and Bertrand Fabi died in crashes.


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