Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

quokula

I think it would be one of the best things that could happen to the sport if all the manufacturers pulled out and we had a grid full of actual racing teams again instead of marketing platforms on wheels.

For long periods of F1's history there were no manufacturers other than Ferrari (who were an F1 team before they were a manufacturer) and that was fine because engines were supplied by the likes of Cosworth, Judd and Ilmor - in fact Ilmor were a motorsport engine specialist who were bought and rebadged by Mercedes to be their engine department.

I don't believe for a minute that in a world where F1 used cheaper, more suitable engines that weren't "road relevant" that it would be impossible to find anyone to supply engines to the teams. The technology is well understood and relatively easy to manufacture. There are plenty of racing series around the world still using V8 engines.

F1 should be a sport, not a car showroom. In the history of the sport, the first time an actual mass-produced car manufacturer won the F1 constructors championship was Renault in 2005 (there are some blurred lines before that with the like Ferrari who were an F1 team first, and Lotus who pretty much became an F1 team and sports car manufacturer in parallel) - there is nothing in the DNA of the sport that says it must be dominated by car manufacturers who don't care about anything other than selling their brand.

I even think the likes of Red Bull (and similar previous teams like Benetton), who are also just in it to sell stuff, are a more positive influence in the sport, because they're interested in associating their brand with exciting action and heroic drivers, rather than fuel efficiency and reliability which is the mantra of the manufacturers.

Shaping the rules of F1 to match what car manufacturers deem is relevant to their road car sales (and it's all about sales, it's nothing to do with R&D - Mercedes F1 team budget is part of the marketing budget in the car company's accounts) is akin to forcing all the players in the premier league to get drunk before every match because the league is sponsored by Carlsberg.

Anjobe

quokula wrote: »

I think it would be one of the best things that could happen to the sport if all the manufacturers pulled out and we had a grid full of actual racing teams again instead of marketing platforms on wheels.

For long periods of F1's history there were no manufacturers other than Ferrari (who were an F1 team before they were a manufacturer) and that was fine because engines were supplied by the likes of Cosworth, Judd and Ilmor - in fact Ilmor were a motorsport engine specialist who were bought and rebadged by Mercedes to be their engine department.

I don't believe for a minute that in a world where F1 used cheaper, more suitable engines that weren't "road relevant" that it would be impossible to find anyone to supply engines to the teams. The technology is well understood and relatively easy to manufacture. There are plenty of racing series around the world still using V8 engines.

F1 should be a sport, not a car showroom. In the history of the sport, the first time an actual mass-produced car manufacturer won the F1 constructors championship was Renault in 2005 (there are some blurred lines before that with the like Ferrari who were an F1 team first, and Lotus who pretty much became an F1 team and sports car manufacturer in parallel) - there is nothing in the DNA of the sport that says it must be dominated by car manufacturers who don't care about anything other than selling their brand.

I even think the likes of Red Bull (and similar previous teams like Benetton), who are also just in it to sell stuff, are a more positive influence in the sport, because they're interested in associating their brand with exciting action and heroic drivers, rather than fuel efficiency and reliability which is the mantra of the manufacturers.

Shaping the rules of F1 to match what car manufacturers deem is relevant to their road car sales (and it's all about sales, it's nothing to do with R&D - Mercedes F1 team budget is part of the marketing budget in the car company's accounts) is akin to forcing all the players in the premier league to get drunk before every match because the league is sponsored by Carlsberg.

Its been such a long time since there were competitive Cosworth powered privateers though. I think 1982 would have been the last time and Cosworth was backed by Ford in those days. Without the other manufacturers do you not think we would just end up with Ferrari winning everything and everyone else competing for scraps. Not greatly different from what we have now but not an improvement either.

BTW, drunk football sounds great, you should definitely pitch that to Channel 4.

quokula

Anjobe wrote: »

Its been such a long time since there were competitive Cosworth powered privateers though. I think 1982 would have been the last time and Cosworth was backed by Ford in those days. Without the other manufacturers do you not think we would just end up with Ferrari winning everything and everyone else competing for scraps. Not greatly different from what we have now but not an improvement either.

BTW, drunk football sounds great, you should definitely pitch that to Channel 4.

As recently as 2013 the championship was won by a car with an engine built by the independent firm Mecachrome. You may know the name from Williams in the late 90s, but they have a long history of building engines that have a Renault badge. They also still supply engines to Formula 2 and various other series around the world.

In the case of their relationship with Renault, they built engines that Renault were responsible for designing. But those designs still exist, the engines they built were perfectly suited for racing, they beat Ferrari year in year out, and if there was enough will I'm sure the IP for the designs could be purchased from Renault if they still own them.

There is zero relationship between a Clio engine and an F1 engine. Or an E class engine and an F1 engine for that matter. These engines do not come off the same production line as the manufacturers other engines. Specialist motorsport manufacturers can and do develop race winning engines, when the rules have been amenable to that.

But the current rules have created incredibly complex engines that are extremely expensive to design and build. They have engine modes that need to be managed constantly so they never give anything like their ultimate pace in the race. They are extremely heavy which resulted in the rules being changed to significantly increase downforce to compensate for the slow lap times, which has in turn made close racing more difficult. The extra weight has also meant tyres have been made harder to cope with the extra loads and this has led to much less strategy variation than previous years. And that's before you get to the loss of that classic F1 engine sound, which is something I could live with losing if the engines were better in other ways, but they're simply not. They have impressive sounding headline horsepower figures that the manufacturer's PR department will rattle off, but this takes no account of the power to weight ratio, the fact that they spend as much time harvesting energy at reduced horsepower as they do deploying it, or the other knock on issues I already mentioned.

These engines are also completely entrenched now so the manufacturers have total power over the sport, with there being no chance whatsoever of a new entrant and not even much chance of existing entrants making inroads on the leader.

GarIT

ELM327 wrote: »

I thought about the engine regs overnight and I think my proposal earlier makes a lot of sense.
Run whatever engine you want but you only have 105kg of fuel for the race.

The rules that make even more sense is that the fuel weight decreases by 1-4 kg each year so we have the future roadmap set years in advance.

And as well as your 105kg of fuel you can use any hybrid or electric system you want. As some point weight becomes worse than the gains.

ELM327

skipper_G wrote: »

This shows how little you actually understand racing and F1

I've watched every season since 1994. Grabbed a few races in '93 but watched from 1994 on every full season. Have seen most every race, qualifying etc since then.


I really don't think my comprehension of racing or f1 is at issue here. You may disagree with my assessment but you cannot question my comprehension of a sport that I have spent 26 years of my life obsessing over.

GarIT wrote: »

The rules that make even more sense is that the fuel weight decreases by 1-4 kg each year so we have the future roadmap set years in advance.

And as well as your 105kg of fuel you can use any hybrid or electric system you want. As some point weight becomes worse than the gains.

This sounds good.

Fernando back to F1? Might revitalise my interest in the sport.

Fernando Alonso to return to Formula 1 with Renault in 2021 - https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/53325412

Inquitus

Basil3 wrote: »

Fernando back to F1? Might revitalise my interest in the sport.

Fernando Alonso to return to Formula 1 with Renault in 2021 - https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/53325412

Hard to see Renault being competitive in 2021, perhaps with the new rules in 2022 they might be able to make a leap forwards?

TCP/IP

Basil3 wrote: »

Fernando back to F1? Might revitalise my interest in the sport.

Fernando Alonso to return to Formula 1 with Renault in 2021 - https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/53325412

Please no he is the last thing we need back in F1. The sport has moved on Fernando give the young drivers a chance not him.

pjohnson

Must be a bloody massive paycheck. They aren't going to be competitive enough to lure him back.


He will drag the car up the field though so thats appealing. Suprised they didn't just use Zhou/Sirotkin.

Burkie1203

pjohnson wrote: »

Must be a bloody massive paycheck. They aren't going to be competitive enough to lure him back.


He will drag the car up the field though so thats appealing. Suprised they didn't just use Zhou/Sirotkin.

Does Alonso bring sponsors .....

Spudman_20000

Sounds like Vettel will be without a seat next year so. Reckon he wants some time out anyway.

pjohnson

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Does Alonso bring sponsors .....

Santander and Kimoa anyway.

quokula

Fernando is a better driver than anyone on the grid today, but hard to see what the point is of joining Renault. In the unlikely event they do produce a competitive car, it won't be until 2022 when he's into his forties.

Sheeps

Sheeps wrote: »

My predictions for 2021.
Bottas to who gives a ****,
Vettel to Mercedes,
Sainz to Ferrari,
Ric to McLaren,
Alonso to Renault

So looks like Alonso will likely be confirmed tomorrow at Renault. I think Vettel replacing Bottas at Mercedes is probably less likely now, given Ferrari's form and Bottas's win at the start of the season.

El_Duderino 09

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Does Alonso bring sponsors .....

Yeah he was a pay driver originally back at Minardi. Minardi really only used pay drivers back then. He also happened to be very good. Mark Webber was another Minardi pay driver who was very good.

Joeface

Was sure Merc had said they were keeping the current line up next season

vectra

quokula wrote: »

Fernando is a better driver than anyone on the grid today, but hard to see what the point is of joining Renault. In the unlikely event they do produce a competitive car, it won't be until 2022 when he's into his forties.

Really?

El_Duderino 09

quokula wrote: »

Fernando is a better driver than anyone on the grid today, but hard to see what the point is of joining Renault. In the unlikely event they do produce a competitive car, it won't be until 2022 when he's into his forties.

He's also nearly 40. Will turn 40 during the season. We have no idea how good he is after his break and he drove a Mclaren Honda which we don't actually know how fast it was because the engine was so far off the pace. That's 5 seasons where we have no idea of his form. He could be past it.

It'll probably be like the Mclaren days where if he looks competitive then people will fawn over him and say he's "dragging the car around the track". And when he goes backward they'll fawn over him and say he's "being let down belly an awful car".

I'd forget him. Leave him out to pasture. But if he's back it might provide some entertainment

ELM327

So, when everyone laughed here when I suggested Alonso would be back in Renault, I'm trying hard and failing to avoid the Jeremy Clarkson Smugface(TM) right now.

vectra

How can everyone announce the return of Alonso when Renault have made not announced it yet?

PukkaStukka

Mercedes gearbox issues likely to reoccur. Interesting read this:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/150397/mercedes-gearbox-troubles-will-appear-again

GarIT

Sky sports confirming it too. Alonso, Ocon confirmed for Renault 2021.

Given the bad blood and the insults Riccardo has been throwing around there is a chance this move will happen before the end of the season. Similar with Vettel too.

Frank Bullitt

Looking forward to seeing Alonso back. (I am probably in the minority in this place with that)

johnnysmack

GarIT wrote: »

Given the bad blood and the insults Riccardo has been throwing around there is a chance this move will happen before the end of the season.

What bad blood and insults!?

GarIT

johnnysmack wrote: »

What bad blood and insults!?

Riccardo was saying that Renault are a mess and can't see them having any chance of sorting themselves out, that he is jumping off a sinking ship and lost any confidence in the promises of improving they made when signing him. AFAIK Abeitboul doesn't like him anymore.

Sheeps

I can see how Alonso will be a force of good at Renault. If the team is a mess they need a strong character who can drive the **** out of a poor car that the team can rally around. Alonso helped turn the tide at McLaren with Zac, and he can do the same for Renault. Ocon will benefit from him being there too, because he was a test driver and if there's one thing the previous couple of years has done for him it is give him the experience to adapt his driving style to drive a car built around someone else. He can soak up some of that experience and use it for his own gain.

Adamocovic

Alonso coming back has mixed emotions with me.

He was a fantastic driver but most probably agree that the comeback won’t go the fairytale way that we always want.

There’s so many young future stars coming in too at the same time.

Still shocked Hulkenberg can’t get a drive. It’s mind boggling to me as I think he’s better than a good few drivers on that grid. But we’ve seen this before in F1.

Think this announcement also is pretty much confirming that Vettel will not be back. No where for him to go.

GarIT

Adamocovic wrote: »

Alonso coming back has mixed emotions with me.

He was a fantastic driver but most probably agree that the comeback won’t go the fairytale way that we always want.

There’s so many young future stars coming in too at the same time.

Still shocked Hulkenberg can’t get a drive. It’s mind boggling to me as I think he’s better than a good few drivers on that grid. But we’ve seen this before in F1.

Think this announcement also is pretty much confirming that Vettel will not be back. No where for him to go.

Toto have said numerous times Mercedes are considering him. There are a few obstacles to overcome though, Hamilton might not be happy with that.

Sheeps

It'll come down to the performance from Bottas this season in all likelihood. I don't think Hamilton will get a say to be honest, no matter how friendly he is with Toto. The people I feel bad for are Ocon and George Russell, who basically get skipped.

Charlie-Bravo

If we see George put in a decent run this year (even if the car is still a back marker) I'd expect Toto to swap Bottas out with George, sending Bottas back to where he came from.