Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

El_Duderino 09

pyramuid man wrote: »

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There comes a point when a team has developed a car that is competitive enough that the drivers start to make a real impact to the performance of the team. If racing point have a car that can compete at the top of the mid field and start to bridge the gap to the top teams. they really need to maximise their driver lineup rather than keeping the owners son happy. If they have serious aspirations about making Aston Martin a top team, they need to ditch Lance.

I'd completely agree with that. Stroll is just not good enough.

RP would be banking on a rejuvenated Vettel on reduced wages though. The way Sebs form has been for the past 2 years (only 1.5 seasons due to the delayed start) is not worth paying top dollar for. He has the experience but I'd be curious to see if he's any faster than Perez over the course of a season. On current form, I suspect not.

El_Duderino 09

A point on the competitiveness of the grid. the group starting with Norris in 5th finished 1m 2s off the lead on a lap of about 1m 7s. And Hamilton wasn't even pushing as he had such a huge lead. Only the Mercedes and Red bulls would have been on the lead lap if the race had been a couple of laps longer or if Hamilton was actually pushing.

With car development being pretty much static for this year and next year, I have to think we're in for a procession to hamilton's next two titles.

Inquitus

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I'd completely agree with that. Stroll is just not good enough.

RP would be banking on a rejuvenated Vettel on reduced wages though. The way Sebs form has been for the past 2 years (only 1.5 seasons due to the delayed start) is not worth paying top dollar for. He has the experience but I'd be curious to see if he's any faster than Perez over the course of a season. On current form, I suspect not.

Agreed, but Stroll senior is not going to put Stroll junior out to pasture!

pyramuid man

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I'd completely agree with that. Stroll is just not good enough.

RP would be banking on a rejuvenated Vettel on reduced wages though. The way Sebs form has been for the past 2 years (only 1.5 seasons due to the delayed start) is not worth paying top dollar for. He has the experience but I'd be curious to see if he's any faster than Perez over the course of a season. On current form, I suspect not.

I agree, he cant command top dollar but he isnt going to be working for free either.

If you look at Ferrari over the last number of years, it has been a revolving door of top management and that kind of change can have a big impact on a driver. I think that Vettel will go into any new team with a renewed energy and drive to prove himself.

Yes, he has made some serious errors and should have performed better but last year certainly was not his worst and this year he is working with what he has.

Look at Fernando Alonso. The greatest driver of the current generation in many peoples opinion and he couldn't win a championship with Ferrari, not for a lack of effort.

The last time Ferrari had significant success was when Michael Schumacher built the team around him. If you look at Mercedes, this is what they are doing with Lewis and Red Bull with Max. Now Ferrari are looking like doing this with Charles and I hope it works out for them but I can see him being disappointed at the end of it all.

El_Duderino 09

Inquitus wrote: »

Agreed, but Stroll senior is not going to put Stroll junior out to pasture!

We assume that but we don't actually know what he'll do. He might pay Williams a few million dollars to take him and give him more time to develop. He might drop him as a ruthless business move. We don't know.

It's worth noting that Stroll doesn't actually own the RP team. He's the biggest shareholder and figurehead of a consortium. He's not a majority shareholder (i think). He might (or might not) be sentimental towards Lance, but the rest of the consortium is almost certainly only in it for the money. It might be very difficult to convince them to continue with an inferior driver. They might have promised that Lance was the next big thing and now it's 2 years down the line and it's pretty clear he significantly slower than Perez.

There's a great line in The Wire where Prop Joe tells Stringer Bell that everyone knows Avon's drugs are inferior: "Avon been putting out p1ss ad calling it the sh1t". Well Lance Stroll been putting out p1ss and calling it the sh1t and i doubt anyone is buying it.

pyramuid man

Inquitus wrote: »

Agreed, but Stroll senior is not going to put Stroll junior out to pasture!

I get what you're saying there but I couldn't see Vettel going to a team where they wouldnt be willing to get rid of the weaker driver. It stinks of a mid-field team that are never going anywhere.

Stroll is not a bad driver btw, but he isn't good enough and has had a lot longer in the sport than he deserves in my opinion.

quokula

I don't see an Aston Martin rebrand turning Racing Point into a top team any more than Sauber being renamed to Alfa Romeo did. It'll be a bit of a cash injection, sure, but they'll still basically be a privateer team running customer engines. Not sure it's worth Vettel's time unless he wants to see out his career being frustrated in the midfield like Alonso.

It's an absolute indictment of the sport that two drivers of their caliber have been left in positions like that, purely because there are only three teams with a chance of regular podiums in the current formula, out of whom Ferrari run a blame shifting revolving door policy, Mercedes refuse to risk rocking the boat by putting anything other than a mediocre driver in their second car, and Red Bull seem insistent not to venture outside their own young driver program, changing them out every few months in the hope of stumbling across the next Verstappen or Vettel.

El_Duderino 09

quokula wrote: »

I don't see an Aston Martin rebrand turning Racing Point into a top team any more than Sauber being renamed to Alfa Romeo did. It'll be a bit of a cash injection, sure, but they'll still basically be a privateer team running customer engines. Not sure it's worth Vettel's time unless he wants to see out his career being frustrated in the midfield like Alonso.

It's an absolute indictment of the sport that two drivers of their caliber have been left in positions like that, purely because there are only three teams with a chance of regular podiums in the current formula, out of whom Ferrari run a blame shifting revolving door policy, Mercedes refuse to risk rocking the boat by putting anything other than a mediocre driver in their second car, and Red Bull seem insistent not to venture outside their own young driver program, changing them out every few months in the hope of stumbling across the next Verstappen or Vettel.

A rebrand won't turn RP into a big team. The fact that they've had a massive cash injection and have invested in a whole new factory might make them a big team. They're in the process of building a new factory right now. It's a long term strategy and has nothing to do with the name on the form sent to Companies House.

They still have to hire additional staff to work in the new factory, create a culture and management structure that facilitates making a great team and a great car. IF they can bring all that together then they MIGHT be able to break into the top teams and become title contenders.

Inquitus

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

A rebranf won't turn RP into a big team. The fact that they've had a massive cash injection and have invested in a. Whole new factory mightake them a big team. They're in th process of building a new factory right now. It's a long term strategy and has nothing to do with the name on the form sent to Companies House.

They still have to hire additional staff to work in the new factory, create a culture and management structure that facilitates making a great team and a great car. IF they can bring all that together then they MIGHT be able to break into the top teams and become title contenders.

If they succeed in delivering on the potential of the Pink Mercedes this season, they could finish 3rd in the Constructors and get a huge chunk of the cash pie! Potentially an extra 80m on last year where they just got the guaranteed 35m and no performance related bonus.

El_Duderino 09

Inquitus wrote: »

If they succeed in delivering on the potential of the Pink Mercedes this season, they could finish 3rd in the Constructors and get a huge chunk of the cash pie! Potentially an extra 80m on last year where they just got the guaranteed 35m and no performance related bonus.

Absolutely. And that cash pie will be used to pay for the investment in the new factory. But they'll have to use the new factory, when it's ready, to design their own car if they want to challenge for titles

AMKC

Is there anyway RP could have got the details and specs of last years Mercedes car by spying or maybe one of the consortium getting it somehow and then going to the RP factory and saying there build that for next year or maybe Mercedes said here we will help you out for one year by giving you the spec and details of last years car so they RP could win big money this and it would look good for the Mercedes powered outfit. Just a mad theory. The thing is if iwere to back fires do it could be also be very bad for Mercedes too. So would they have risked doing that?

El_Duderino 09

AMKC wrote: »

Is there anyway RP could have got the details and specs of last years Mercedes car by spying or maybe one of the consortium getting it somehow and then going to the RP factory and saying there build that for next year or maybe Mercedes said here we will help you out for one year by giving you the spec and details of last years car so they RP could win big money this and it would look good for the Mercedes powered outfit. Just a mad theory. The thing is if iwere to back fires do it could be also be very bad for Mercedes too. So would they have risked doing that?

It's not far fetched at all. It's pretty far fetched that RP had cracked the technology to replicate an entire Mercedes car from last year and Mercedes is fine with it. It's pretty far fetched that RP and everyone else never even thought to do this before. And it's far fetched that RP will replicate last year's car but not even think to replicate this year's car.

It looks much more like an agreement between merc and one of its customers than a genuine innovation to replicate last year's car (but not this year's car)

skipper_G

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It's not far fetched at all. It's pretty far fetched that RP had cracked the technology to replicate an entire Mercedes car from last year and Mercedes is fine with it. It's pretty far fetched that RP and everyone else never even thought to do this before. And it's far fetched that RP will replicate last year's car but not even think to replicate this year's car.

It looks much more like an agreement between merc and one of its customers than a genuine innovation to replicate last year's car (but not this year's car)

On the contrary I think it's the very definition of far fetched. Racing Point are a Mercedes engine customer, with a separate naming rights deal that has the engines badged as BWT Mercedes. Take a look at the car, you won't find any reference to Mercedes on it, no name, no badge. To suggest that the world champions would knowingly break the rules to benefit a competitor and risk damaging their own brand is ludicrous. The brand that is owned by Daimler, a publicly traded multinational company with a few hundred thousand employees worldwide and billions in revenue.

El_Duderino 09

skipper_G wrote: »

On the contrary I think it's the very definition of far fetched. Racing Point are a Mercedes engine customer, with a separate naming rights deal that has the engines badged as BWT Mercedes. Take a look at the car, you won't find any reference to Mercedes on it, no name, no badge. To suggest that the world champions would knowingly break the rules to benefit a competitor and risk damaging their own brand is ludicrous. The brand that is owned by Daimler, a publicly traded multinational company with a few hundred thousand employees worldwide and billions in revenue.

So do you think it's more likely that PR has cracked the ability to replicate last year's ( but not this year's) car? And nobody else has thought to use the sane technique.

Do you think it's more likely that RP has copied Mercedes car and Mercedes is fine with it and didn't even appeal. If yes, why doesn't merc seem to care enough to even appeal - if RP can do it thus tear, they'll all be doing it next year.

Personally I think the only thing that explains all thise things is that Merc was involved in giving them the ability to make lass year's car.

skipper_G

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So do you think it's more likely that PR has cracked the ability to replicate last year's ( but not this year's) car? And nobody else has thought to use the sane technique.

Do you think it's more likely that RP has copied Mercedes car and Mercedes is fine with it and didn't even appeal. If yes, why doesn't merc seem to care enough to even appeal - if RP can do it thus tear, they'll all be doing it next year.

Personally I think the only thing that explains all thise things is that Merc was involved in giving them the ability to make lass year's car.

How exactly could RP replicate this years Merc ? You know as well as I do, these cars take months to design, develop and manufacture, even when using somebody else's concept as a base it doesn't happen overnight. RP started work on this year's car in 2019.

As for the question of why Mercedes didn't protest RP, why would they ? RP is not a threat to Mercedes, they're not in the same fight. It's exactly why Renault are the ones protesting, they are directly fighting Racing Point for position on track and in the championship.

I have my own opinion as to what explains the whole thing, but I'm not presenting it as anything other than opinion. You're making wild accusations that Mercedes are complicit and presenting it as 'logical, obvious, the only way' etc;

My weather app is saying rain for Friday, Saturday and Sunday in Hungary. I hope so as it makes things interesting.

El_Duderino 09

skipper_G wrote: »

How exactly could RP replicate this years Merc ? You know as well as I do, these cars take months to design, develop and manufacture, even when using somebody else's concept as a base it doesn't happen overnight. RP started work on this year's car in 2019.

As for the question of why Mercedes didn't protest RP, why would they ? RP is not a threat to Mercedes, they're not in the same fight. It's exactly why Renault are the ones protesting, they are directly fighting Racing Point for position on track and in the championship.

I have my own opinion as to what explains the whole thing, but I'm not presenting it as anything other than opinion. You're making wild accusations that Mercedes are complicit and presenting it as 'logical, obvious, the only way' etc;

The traditional way of designing and building a car takes a year. We have no idea about the new way of scanning and replicating in lieu of designing it. It might be a much simpler process.

As for the question of why mercedes would object even though RP isn't comprting directly with them. The reason is simple and I'm surprised you didn't think of it yourself. If it's allowed by RP then it'll be standard practice next year and into 2022.

So when Ferrari and RB start using this technology, they won't just be replicating the entire car, they are already competent at designing their own parts. So they can take the unique parts of the Merc design (which Mercedes spent time and money developing) and add them to their own designs. It would have the effect of diminishing the advantage Mercedes gets from spending hundreds of millions a year to achieve, namely their superior designs over the past few years.

This isn't an aero turning vein in full view of everyone, it's the internal workings of their car we're talking about. If you can't see why they would jealously guard those designs from being scanned and copied by Ferrari and Red Bull then I'm not sure what way you're thinking about the issue.

El_Duderino 09

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

My weather app is saying rain for Friday, Saturday and Sunday in Hungary. I hope so as it makes things interesting.

I was there for the wet quali a couple of years ago and it was great. Was really hoping for rain on race day but it was a scorcher. Would love to see a wet race

Inquitus

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

My weather app is saying rain for Friday, Saturday and Sunday in Hungary. I hope so as it makes things interesting.

50% Chance of rain on Sunday, also 40% on Saturday! Could well spice things up, will keep an eye on it as the week progresses! Cloud and threat of rain keeps the temperatures lower than normal as well which would favour Mercedes!

Jordan 199

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

My weather app is saying rain for Friday, Saturday and Sunday in Hungary. I hope so as it makes things interesting.

I'm hungary for a wet race.

mrsoundie

Inquitus wrote: »

50% Chance of rain on Sunday, also 40% on Saturday! Could well spice things up, will keep an eye on it as the week progresses! Cloud and threat of rain keeps the temperatures lower than normal as well which would favour Mercedes!

yr.no has it different

skipper_G

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

The traditional way of designing and building a car takes a year. We have no idea about the new way of scanning and replicating in lieu of designing it. It might be a much simpler process.

Even if the design time is reduced which we don't know, it can't speed up the manufacturing process. The parts still have to be made, and the new factory isn't built yet so they're restricted in terms of space and people. Additionally they are prioritising design and development of the car for 2022, that was a big part of the logic behind this year's change in design philosophy.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

As for the question of why mercedes would object even though RP isn't comprting directly with them. The reason is simple and I'm surprised you didn't think of it yourself. If it's allowed by RP then it'll be standard practice next year and into 2022.

Perhaps others may use it in future, but absolutely not for 2022. The new regulations will mean every car on the grid will be a brand new concept. Teams can't just turn up to testing with a blank slate and copy the fastest car of the day in time to get it on the grid.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So when Ferrari and RB start using this technology, they won't just be replicating the entire car, they are already competent at designing their own parts. So they can take the unique parts of the Merc design (which Mercedes spent time and money developing) and add them to their own designs. It would have the effect of diminishing the advantage Mercedes gets from spending hundreds of millions a year to achieve, namely their superior designs over the past few years.

This technology is already being used, it exists, the teams are aware of it's existence. I read a comment from Dieter Rencken on racefans that one of his sources confirmed "He's used it at three teams so far".

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

This isn't an aero turning vein in full view of everyone, it's the internal workings of their car we're talking about. If you can't see why they would jealously guard those designs from being scanned and copied by Ferrari and Red Bull then I'm not sure what way you're thinking about the issue.

You're assuming the internals are the same, again this has NOT been proven. It has been alleged, hence the reason for the protest. I'm going to wait for the outcome of the investigation before deciding there's something to worry about.

Jordan 199

Jordan 199 wrote: »

I'm hungary for a wet race.

Adamocovic

Sounds like rumblings from German press that Vettel is about to confirm a move to Aston Martin/RP for next year.

Let’s wait and see if anything mentioned during Brundles interview.

Harika

Adamocovic wrote: »

Sounds like rumblings from German press that Vettel is about to confirm a move to Aston Martin/RP for next year.

Let’s wait and see if anything mentioned during Brundles interview.

So folks are reporting that Racing Point will buy out Perez’s contract (which won’t be cheap), lose his sponsorship and pay Vettel’s salary? While trying to keep Aston Martin afloat... So Stroll Sr has to dump Stroll Jr?
Yeah, right. That’s really going to happen...

vectra

Harika wrote: »

So folks are reporting that Racing Point will buy out Perez’s contract (which won’t be cheap), lose his sponsorship and pay Vettel’s salary? While trying to keep Aston Martin afloat... So Stroll Sr has to dump Stroll Jr?
Yeah, right. That’s really going to happen...

Stroll snr. does not have the full say in who drives for RP.

Adamocovic

Harika wrote: »

So folks are reporting that Racing Point will buy out Perez’s contract (which won’t be cheap), lose his sponsorship and pay Vettel’s salary? While trying to keep Aston Martin afloat... So Stroll Sr has to dump Stroll Jr?
Yeah, right. That’s really going to happen...

The story so far is that RP will activate Perez’s release clause that is built into his contract.

They would have to do this before July 31st. No idea the money involved in this release clause. This clause was designed in the contract for the scenario where Aston Martin may choose to go a different path with their driver lineup.

Horner alluded to it last weekend also about the clause I believe while he mentioned that he thinks there is no way Stroll gets the boot. He also mentioned about Pérez weighing up his options. Looking for another seat or taking a year out to do other Motorsport.

Again just speculation but seems to be the story they are running with the most in Germany. Also Horner is obviously just giving his opinion not inside info.

pjohnson

Verstappen vs. Albon lap times

Adamocovic

On Vettel, F1 official YouTube channel running a video on it. Was released today.

[Url] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxVYazNEvZQ&feature=share[/url]

Strange they would get involved with rumors before they are confirmed.

It could just be the way it’s moving and them needing views/content but still surprising they’d do a video that long about the speculation of Vettel to RP.

recyclebin

Vettel replacing Perez makes no sense from a drivers point of view. Vettels form has been very poor the last couple of years. If they make that change its more for marketing than results! Vettel would be a big step up from Stroll but not from Perez. It could actually be a step backwards if Perez is booted out the door.