Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

TCP/IP

recyclebin wrote: »

We may as well write off this and next season to Mercedes. There will be very limited changes until end of next season due to the token system they have put in place. It's quite depressing

I completely agree but I have this feeling that in years to come the current Merc car will be found out to be illegal especially this years one. No proof of course just a feeling.

Frank Bullitt

It's the same feeling as the past few years, Merc have built a beast which can do anything really, but again they lobbied for these rules when the rule change came in (they pushed hard for the hybrid systems we have now), so can we really be surprised that they are out in front?

Would love to see the viewing number of the past few years. I know rose tinted glasses can ruin your perspective, but even in 2004 when Schumacher was waltzing it, you somewhat felt he earned it after joining Ferrari in 1996 when they were putting our tractors. This all just feels bought and paid for, with a budget like Merc, it's no surprise they are this far in front.

No clue what F1 does until the next rule changes, if they sit back and do nothing (which they probably will), even if the new rules throw everything on its head no one will be around to watch it. Even now (i know its a pandemic) but that race today, with no crowd...this is what F1 has come to, and made worse by Crofts laugh at unfunny jokes.

I must be watching F1 for 25 years or so now, but this is the most uninteresting I can remember it. No sound to even enjoy from the cars, very little in terms of character at all from the sport, Hamilton making it try and sounds like he has a challenge (still I rise, blah blah blah).

I sound like an old man now.

Cork Trucker

TCP/IP wrote: »

I completely agree but I have this feeling that in years to come the current Merc car will be found out to be illegal especially this years one. No proof of course just a feeling.

Merc will be to F1 what Lance Armstrong is to cycling?

As dominant as Ferrari were in 2002 & 2004 that was nothing to what we’re experiencing now, and the powers that be have no interest in changing that. Is it because it’s an English based team with a German HQ and also a British driver? Who knows. I wouldn’t have seen Ecclestone pushing for the Changes today that he did in the mid 2000’s to stop Ferrari. At least coverage was still FTA then.

eviltimeban

Gintonious wrote: »

I sound like an old man now.

It is a bit rose tinted. It was really the same, it was either Schumacher scampering off into the distance, then it was Alonso, then it was Vettel, and now it's Hamilton. And in a few years' time, it'll be someone else.

At least when Rosberg was around, there was more pressure on Hamilton, and there was the whole drama of the relationship between them. That's not there with Bottas so Hamilton has an easy time of it. I know he always says "I raced my heart out" but I'm pretty sure yesterday he'd have been wondering exactly where the challengers were. The hardest thing he had to do yesterday was lap people.

Vettel *should* be pushing him in the Ferrari, Verstappen *should* be forcing Hamilton into making mistakes, the number 2 drivers *should* be causing him headaches when he comes out from the pits behind them. But it's not happening. Hopefully it won't always be like this.

eviltimeban

SureYWouldntYa wrote: »

I think it's more a friend defending a friend, without using the absolute best wording

I don't think any of the new breed are guys who will stir shít among the other racers, Verstappen is more ruthless and competitive than the others so he'll go a bit harder but as a whole we won't see a whole lot

They are still playing the PR game. Maybe in a few years time when some of them have tasted victory and their stock rises, they might become more outspoken. Norris could be a trouble maker, maybe even someone like Stroll might develop a side to them we haven't seen yet.

Santan

Heard a really good interview with Ross brawn a few months ago, talked about how Bernie and fia went out of their way to make changes over multiple seasons that were only to stop Ferrari, he went into good details. Crazy how far they went to stop the Ferrari winning, and to think this was after only 3 years of Ferrari winning but not dominating in the way Mercedes are the past 7 years, 5 of the most dreadful years of F1 I can remember, can't count the first 2 as that was unexpected

namloc1980

LIGHTNING wrote: »

At least Schumi had McLaren or Renault to challenge him. This is awful tripe, the Merc is practically in a different class. Its like watching mixed class single seater racing

And 2021 will be the exact same as car development is extremely limited for next season so it'll be another Merc Hamilton procession at the front. No doubt Mercedes will nail the 2022 regulations also and still dominate in the next era!

vectra

Gintonious wrote: »

It's the same feeling as the past few years, Merc have built a beast which can do anything really, but again they lobbied for these rules when the rule change came in (they pushed hard for the hybrid systems we have now), so can we really be surprised that they are out in front?

Would love to see the viewing number of the past few years. I know rose tinted glasses can ruin your perspective, but even in 2004 when Schumacher was waltzing it, you somewhat felt he earned it after joining Ferrari in 1996 when they were putting our tractors. This all just feels bought and paid for, with a budget like Merc, it's no surprise they are this far in front.

No clue what F1 does until the next rule changes, if they sit back and do nothing (which they probably will), even if the new rules throw everything on its head no one will be around to watch it. Even now (i know its a pandemic) but that race today, with no crowd...this is what F1 has come to, and made worse by Crofts laugh at unfunny jokes.

I must be watching F1 for 25 years or so now, but this is the most uninteresting I can remember it. No sound to even enjoy from the cars, very little in terms of character at all from the sport, Hamilton making it try and sounds like he has a challenge (still I rise, blah blah blah).

I sound like an old man now.

For once I absolutely agree with you.

BikeRacer

Interesting article here by Racefans comparing lap times to last year. Redbull almost 3 tenths slower compared to last year, while AlphaTauri 1.2sec quicker (when their car works).

quokula

eviltimeban wrote: »

It is a bit rose tinted. It was really the same, it was either Schumacher scampering off into the distance, then it was Alonso, then it was Vettel, and now it's Hamilton. And in a few years' time, it'll be someone else.

It was not remotely the same. Ferrari only had two years when they indisputably had the best car, and they weren't even two consecutive years. Other than that they were always pushed hard. And whenever they did look to be building up a cushion over the field, there would be changes to the technical regulations the following year to close it back up.

Then Red Bull rarely had a dominant car either, multiple teams were capable of winning at any given race weekend and most of Red Bull's titles went down to the wire - the second Red Bull driver never managed to get as high as second in the championship, so without Vettel in the car they may well have won nothing.

As for Alonso, again, his two titles pretty much went to the wire, and the McLaren was consistently faster than the Renault in 2005 while the Ferrari was faster than it for a reasonable chunk of 2006 and was in position to win the title before an engine failure in the penultimate race.

On the other hand, Mercedes has been untouchable since they lobbied for the rules that came in in 2014, and unlike the Ferrari era when the FIA regularly mixed things up, Mercedes' advantage has been completely enshrined, with innovations from other teams getting shut down and token systems and extremely limited testing days making it even harder for any one else to have the opportunity to come anywhere near them in the six years since.

It's a completely unprecedented situation in the history of the sport. The only slight bit of interest was when Mercedes had Rosberg in the second car, and thus Hamilton was put under a little bit of pressure and ultimately cracked and was beaten. Since Rosberg's retirement we've known who the champion would be before every season started. We already know who the champion will be in 2021 today. 2022 is the next time there is a chance of a fair fight.

Top Dog

Something a little lighter than the current misery of processional races.

Can't imagine too many other drivers getting stuck in like this - the kid gets more and more likable :cool:

https://twitter.com/TimBampton/status/1284954634117931008?s=19

El_Duderino 09

Top Dog wrote: »

Something a little lighter than the current misery of processional races.

Can't imagine too many other drivers getting stuck in like this - the kid gets more and more likable :cool:

https://twitter.com/TimBampton/status/1284954634117931008?s=19

I'd admire that dedication to his craft. Presumably he sees it as important fot him to understand his machinery. Also doesn't see himself as being above getting his hands dirty.

Can't help liking Lando.

SureYWouldntYa

Here's a good video from before this season started about the most dominant car in F1

It's the Merc

the_pen_turner

This must be the most depressing start to a season in years. . Mercs are miles ahead and no one can give them a challenge.

Hamilton was able to pit on lap 4 I think and still come out in 3rd or 4th. That's crazy.

Anjobe

the_pen_turner wrote: »

This must be the most depressing start to a season in years. . Mercs are miles ahead and no one can give them a challenge.

Hamilton was able to pit on lap 4 I think and still come out in 3rd or 4th. That's crazy.

I don't know whether there was an interview with Toto or whether one of the Sky guys was just talking about a conversation with him, but apparently he said that Ferrari's engine developments over the last couple of years had effectively forced Mercedes into additional development of their own to keep up. When the FIA put a stop to whatever Ferrari were doing this left Mercedes well out in front again. Ferrari somehow managing to shoot themselves in both feet!

Santan

the_pen_turner wrote: »

This must be the most depressing start to a season in years. . Mercs are miles ahead and no one can give them a.

Christ when you think about it, we have been saying that for years now, and will be saying it for more than likely two more years. I know there is no answer here, but how can the owners of F1 be ok with the fact that 1 team has allowed to dominate almost a decade with zero help to any other team. Imagine if the Saudi government was allowed buy a soccer team and pump as much money as possible into it with no restrictions at all, and every other team was told they could only spend what they generate from sales, there would be uproar, this is what merc have, a few years development ahead of all the rest, and total restricted development for every one else. I could completely get on board and say merc just done a better job than every one, if after 1, 2 or even maximum 3 seasons regs were altered to bring the field back to square one again, and if merc do it again well fair play I can't argue, but jesus it's the other way, as someone said, when a team finds something to catch up, it's called illegal.

skipper_G

Santan wrote: »

Christ when you think about it, we have been saying that for years now, and will be saying it for more than likely two more years. I know there is no answer here, but how can the owners of F1 be ok with the fact that 1 team has allowed to dominate almost a decade with zero help to any other team. Imagine if the Saudi government was allowed buy a soccer team and pump as much money as possible into it with no restrictions at all, and every other team was told they could only spend what they generate from sales, there would be uproar, this is what merc have, a few years development ahead of all the rest, and total restricted development for every one else. I could completely get on board and say merc just done a better job than every one, if after 1, 2 or even maximum 3 seasons regs were altered to bring the field back to square one again, and if merc do it again well fair play I can't argue, but jesus it's the other way, as someone said, when a team finds something to catch up, it's called illegal.

The rules regarding engine development, in fact development of any kind are the same for all teams last time I checked. Technical and Sporting regulations, there's not a special set of regulations for Mercedes. Also it's worth remembering that regulation changes do not bring the field closer together. Stability in regulations does, the gains are more marginal as time goes on and field spread closes up. We're seeing that right now, as Racing Point, McLaren, Renault have all improved. Ferrari and Red Bull went in the opposite direction.

You don't hear people calling on FIFA to change the rules of soccer just because Real Madrid won La Liga again do you ?

duploelabs

https://twitter.com/natesaundersF1/status/1285138252094074881?s=19

recyclebin

skipper_G wrote: »

The rules regarding engine development, in fact development of any kind are the same for all teams last time I checked. Technical and Sporting regulations, there's not a special set of regulations for Mercedes. Also it's worth remembering that regulation changes do not bring the field closer together. Stability in regulations does, the gains are more marginal as time goes on and field spread closes up. We're seeing that right now, as Racing Point, McLaren, Renault have all improved. Ferrari and Red Bull went in the opposite direction.

You don't hear people calling on FIFA to change the rules of soccer just because Real Madrid won La Liga again do you ?

The FIFA financial rules have done the exact same for soccer as the token system has done for Formula 1. They have prevented anyone from spending money to catch up with the big clubs like Real. The big clubs maintain their monopoly. It's the exact same now with the token system in Formula 1.

There has been plenty of people calling for change to the financial rules for soccer!

Santan

skipper_G wrote: »

The rules regarding engine development, in fact development of any kind are the same for all teams last time I checked. Technical and Sporting regulations, there's not a special set of regulations for Mercedes. Also it's worth remembering that regulation changes do not bring the field closer together. Stability in regulations does, the gains are more marginal as time goes on and field spread closes up. We're seeing that right now, as Racing Point, McLaren, Renault have all improved. Ferrari and Red Bull went in the opposite direction.

You don't hear people calling on FIFA to change the rules of soccer just because Real Madrid won La Liga again do you ?

I would agree with you in theory but let's face it, the teams you mention about gaining, are all coming from a long way off and this is after almost 10 seasons, how can they really develop with one hand tied behind their back with this stupid token system. We could all see during 2015 the token system was massively flawed in Mercedes favor and here we are all these years later with the same system.

Also no issue with Madrid winning another league, but that was not my analogy, I was talking about 1 team been given a huge advantage and every other team just having to accept it, with no realistic way of ever catching up. I can't really think of another sport in this situation. All I want is to watch F1 with just a chance that not just 1 person or 1 team is almost guaranteed to get pole, and cruise to victory.

Santan

skipper_G wrote: »

Also it's worth remembering that regulation changes do not bring the field closer together.

Ferrari, Renault, and McLaren of 03, 04, 05, 06 would disagree with you, reg changes were brought in to stop the dominance of Ferrari, and were brought in pretty quickly and it worked according to Ross Brawn costing them 2 almost 3 drivers championships. Not my words, his

Frank Bullitt

vectra wrote: »

For once I absolutely agree with you.

2020...it keeps on giving :pac:

*no hard feelings over our past disagreements, I love a good F1 chat. More exciting than the racing.

Frank Bullitt

eviltimeban wrote: »

It is a bit rose tinted. It was really the same, it was either Schumacher scampering off into the distance, then it was Alonso, then it was Vettel, and now it's Hamilton. And in a few years' time, it'll be someone else.

At least when Rosberg was around, there was more pressure on Hamilton, and there was the whole drama of the relationship between them. That's not there with Bottas so Hamilton has an easy time of it. I know he always says "I raced my heart out" but I'm pretty sure yesterday he'd have been wondering exactly where the challengers were. The hardest thing he had to do yesterday was lap people.

Vettel *should* be pushing him in the Ferrari, Verstappen *should* be forcing Hamilton into making mistakes, the number 2 drivers *should* be causing him headaches when he comes out from the pits behind them. But it's not happening. Hopefully it won't always be like this.

I take it you didn't watch those seasons then and just looked at the results.

Schumacher really only dominated 2 seasons, the others he was in a constant battle with Williams, McLaren and then Renault.

Alonso battled tooth and nail again for his after that.

Vettel as well only had the 2011 and then the 2013 car all to his liking, 2012 and 2010 was down to the wire.

Merc haven't had that...they did have an inter team battle at one point, but Bottas hasn't a patch on Rosberg, so Hamilton only has to fight the timesheets. This is what happens when a team times the budget rush with a url change, and keeps putting in the budget. The more they will, the more they get that investment back, it isn't about the sport so to speak, it's about getting that return back.

skipper_G

Santan wrote: »

I would agree with you in theory but let's face it, the teams you mention about gaining, are all coming from a long way off and this is after almost 10 seasons, how can they really develop with one hand tied behind their back with this stupid token system. We could all see during 2015 the token system was massively flawed in Mercedes favor and here we are all these years later with the same system.

Also no issue with Madrid winning another league, but that was not my analogy, I was talking about 1 team been given a huge advantage and every other team just having to accept it, with no realistic way of ever catching up. I can't really think of another sport in this situation. All I want is to watch F1 with just a chance that not just 1 person or 1 team is almost guaranteed to get pole, and cruise to victory.

The engine development token system was dropped since 2017 wasn't it ? I stand to be corrected, but far as I know the only token system on the horizon is to deal with next year's regulations carry over, and is specifically to keep costs down because of the new regs being delayed a year..

eviltimeban

Gintonious wrote: »

I take it you didn't watch those seasons then and just looked at the results.

Schumacher really only dominated 2 seasons, the others he was in a constant battle with Williams, McLaren and then Renault.

Alonso battled tooth and nail again for his after that.

Vettel as well only had the 2011 and then the 2013 car all to his liking, 2012 and 2010 was down to the wire.

Merc haven't had that...they did have an inter team battle at one point, but Bottas hasn't a patch on Rosberg, so Hamilton only has to fight the timesheets. This is what happens when a team times the budget rush with a url change, and keeps putting in the budget. The more they will, the more they get that investment back, it isn't about the sport so to speak, it's about getting that return back.

Of course I watched them. I've been watching F1 since about 1988.

What I'm saying is, it always seemed like someone was scampering off into the distance. I'm talking about those races where, say, Vettel would be on pole about a second faster than P2, lead into the first corner, and then never be seen again til the chequered flag.

Santan

skipper_G wrote: »

The engine development token system was dropped since 2017 wasn't it ? I stand to be corrected, but far as I know the only token system on the horizon is to deal with next year's regulations carry over, and is specifically to keep costs down because of the new regs being delayed a year..

To be honest I thought it was due to be dropped last season or this one but im sure I heard sky guys talking about it over the weekend and just assumed I was wrong and it was still in place, but I'm really not sure.

El_Duderino 09

eviltimeban wrote: »

Of course I watched them. I've been watching F1 since about 1988.

What I'm saying is, it always seemed like someone was scampering off into the distance. I'm talking about those races where, say, Vettel would be on pole about a second faster than P2, lead into the first corner, and then never be seen again til the chequered flag.

There were plenty of days like that over the years. But even back then the Red Bull was a great car but the Renault engine wasn't dominant so there was some degree of give and take between tracks. But the Merc seems to have the upper hand in power on the straights AND in the corners. You expect them to dominate in Monza and Monaco, Silverstone and Singapore.

Santan

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

There were plenty of days like that over the years. But even back then the Red Bull was a great car but the Renault engine wasn't dominant so there was some degree of give and take between tracks. But the Merc seems to have the upper hand in power on the straights AND in the corners. You expect them to dominate in Monza and Monaco, Silverstone and Singapore.

If they were over 1s in Hungary where do you think they will be in Silverstone, I'm gonna guess 1.5s

Inquitus

Santan wrote: »

If they were over 1s in Hungary where do you think they will be in Silverstone, I'm gonna guess 1.5s

I think Red Bull need to figure their car out, if they could understand why it's soo twitchy it seems they have a fair bit of pace they could extract!

chicorytip

Gintonious wrote: »

It's the same feeling as the past few years, Merc have built a beast which can do anything really, but again they lobbied for these rules when the rule change came in (they pushed hard for the hybrid systems we have now), so can we really be surprised that they are out in front?

Would love to see the viewing number of the past few years. I know rose tinted glasses can ruin your perspective, but even in 2004 when Schumacher was waltzing it, you somewhat felt he earned it after joining Ferrari in 1996 when they were putting our tractors. This all just feels bought and paid for, with a budget like Merc, it's no surprise they are this far in front.

No clue what F1 does until the next rule changes, if they sit back and do nothing (which they probably will), even if the new rules throw everything on its head no one will be around to watch it. Even now (i know its a pandemic) but that race today, with no crowd...this is what F1 has come to, and made worse by Crofts laugh at unfunny jokes.

I must be watching F1 for 25 years or so now, but this is the most uninteresting I can remember it. No sound to even enjoy from the cars, very little in terms of character at all from the sport, Hamilton making it try and sounds like he has a challenge (still I rise, blah blah blah).

I sound like an old man now.

The racing is still interesting and the drivers are highly talented but most of them have boring personalities. The team managers, are boring and the sports administrators are boring. In order to save the sport major manufacturers like BMW, GM, Toyota and Ford and maybe the likes of Lamborghini would enter as full works outfits and customer teams would be excluded. This is the only measure that will create a more competitive championship rather than the two horse race it has become in recent seasons.