Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

barryribs

TCP/IP wrote: »

You make a very good point but at this stage, I would rather see Merc step away as it's plainly obvious they are too big a machine to compete against and how many championships wins will be too much and destroy the sport we love so much.

What happens if they cream the competition in the 2022 season with the new rule changes it will be a disaster for the sport.

I don't understand this at all, Mercedes have done the best job by miles, but they should step away? Ferrari couldn't beat them in what is generally considered an illegal car, and when they could match them end up imploding or shooting themselves in the foot.

quokula

Schorpio wrote: »

I take your point, and a big part of me would rather they just stepped away too, but I don't think they should be made to leave the sport, just because they were too good at it. I know they have a big budget, but Ferrari have an equally big budget, and look at the mess they are in.

Ferrari didn't have the advantage of pushing through rules for an engine formula they were developing a year before everyone else though.

The issue isn't just budgets, it's the fact that each team has a pre-existing car from the year before to build upon, with regulations absolutely favouring evolution over revolution and not giving any opportunity for teams that are already behind to catch up, through a combination of restrictive unchanging regulations, reliability being at a premium, limited testing, clamping down on innovations and the application of restrictive token systems at key times.

Since 2014 we have seen zero movement on Ferrari or Red Bull catching Mercedes, and we've seen zero movement on anyone else catching Ferrari or Red Bull, up until Force India's Mercedes copy this year. There has never been a period in F1 so devoid of opportunity for so long.

namloc1980

TCP/IP wrote: »

You make a very good point but at this stage, I would rather see Merc step away as it's plainly obvious they are too big a machine to compete against and how many championships wins will be too much and destroy the sport we love so much.

What happens if they cream the competition in the 2022 season with the new rule changes it will be a disaster for the sport.

The fear is that they will nail the 2022 regulations also and if they do it could well be the final nail in the coffin of the sport.

Frank Bullitt

If Merc are up to something suspect, I am surprised that other teams haven't said anything about it yet. There is a bit of smoke on acceleration (just like the Ferrari unit when it was up to some tricks), I guess with a few teams running that unit and with McLaren joining that crew next year, why would they?

Either way, and as some have pointed out, the gap and margin they have over the rest is monstrous, to the point of "why even bother". But again, this is what happens when a team push hard for a set of regulations that they know they can work towards and dominate. Even without Hamilton they would be waling away with it, he is obviously very happy with the car and can push with no issues at all.

The 2022 regs MIGHT switch it up, but Merc literally have so much money and power, they can so what they want, however they want.

Inquitus

I still reckon there is some pace in the Red Bull car if can solve their balance issues that is making it soo hard to drive, esp in Qually.

namloc1980

The 2022 regulations are principally chassis and aero related. The power units won't be changing much so Merc can essentially keep the PU ticking over and concentrate their resources on the new chassis and aero for 2022. That gives them a huge advantage already over the likes of Ferrari who have a duff power unit.

Frank Bullitt

Inquitus wrote: »

I still reckon there is some pace in the Red Bull car if can solve their balance issues that is making it soo hard to drive, esp in Qually.

They have been slow starters the past few seasons, and with a short season I had hoped they would start a bit better.

AMKC

I think all we can hope for next year is that maybe McLaren with the Mercedes engines might be able to challenge Mercedes. Maybe hope that Red Bull starts better next year as they should have there car issues sorted by then otherwise its Racing Point that can maybe still challenge them if there car is found to be legal.

El_Duderino 09

namloc1980 wrote: »

The 2022 regulations are principally chassis and aero related. The power units won't be changing much so Merc can essentially keep the PU ticking over and concentrate their resources on the new chassis and aero for 2022. That gives them a huge advantage already over the likes of Ferrari who have a duff power unit.

Mercedes has had the beat power unit for most of the last 20 odd years. That's an advantage that can almost be taken for granted. The 2022 regs will make track position less important and will hopefully make following and overtaking easier. But it's unlikely to change much about the running order.

Mercedes is the best at building cars and I'd expect that to carry over to 2022.

Santan

I hate saying it as it sounds like sour grapes, but I can't take all Hamiltons titles seriously. I know it's easy to say it as he is such a divisive person between fans, but if Jenson had of stayed with Brawn after the sale to Mercedes and he was on the same level of wins and titles I would say the exact same, and I really like Jenson. It's just Mercedes have done such an incredible job every year since coming back, that if Hamilton had not joined and Rosberg became the number 1 in 2014 and had gone on this winning streak, would it be looked at in the same way.

GarIT

I just read that yesterday that until 2019 teams were allowed store 2L of fuel outside of the fuel tank and not counted by the fuel flow sensor. In 2020 this has been reduced to 250ml. That could be Ferrari's advantage, that they were using the 2L effectively.

Harika

Rumours of a third race in Silverstone due to increase of Covid in Catalunya come the 14–16th August.
Edith
Spa then Monza then Mugello thens 2 week break Sochi and then another triple header in Europe with Portimão, Hockenheim and Imola.

pjohnson

pjohnson wrote: »

Red Bull/AlphaTauri wont have a reserve driver as it stands for the British races. Both Buemi and Camara will be in Germany for the Formula E finale.

Neither Daruvala or Tsunoda have the criteria for a superlicence.

Update:
Now rumours Hartley might be re-joining Red Bull/AlphaTauri as Reserve since he just left Dragon.

namloc1980

Harika wrote: »

Rumours of a third race in Silverstone due to increase of Covid in Catalunya come the 14–16th August.
Edith
Spa then Monza then Mugello thens 2 week break Sochi and then another triple header in Europe with Portimão, Hockenheim and Imola.

Imola and Hockenheim....love it. Pity about the lack competition on the track at the front.

Anesthetize

Harika wrote: »

Spa then Monza then Mugello thens 2 week break Sochi and then another triple header in Europe with Portimão, Hockenheim and Imola.

Some sources are saying Nurburgring. Not sure if this means we won't get Hockenheim as well.

TCP/IP

barryribs wrote: »

I don't understand this at all, Mercedes have done the best job by miles, but they should step away? Ferrari couldn't beat them in what is generally considered an illegal car, and when they could match them end up imploding or shooting themselves in the foot.

So do you think the current dominance of Mercedes is good for the sport.
What happens if they win say 10 drivers and constructors doubles in a row I will tell you the sport will collapse and die. Is that what you want?

barryribs

TCP/IP wrote: »

So do you think the current dominance of Mercedes is good for the sport.
What happens if they win say 10 drivers and constructors doubles in a row I will tell you the sport will collapse and die. Is that what you want?

Its a competition, it's not Mercedes fault that the other teams couldn't get their act together for the last 6 years. The same rules apply to all teams (almost all teams), Mercedes have just done a better job within those rules. I don't see why they should be told to leave the sport for that.


If you want parity, go watch a spec series.

TCP/IP

barryribs wrote: »

Its a competition, it's not Mercedes fault that the other teams couldn't get their act together for the last 6 years. The same rules apply to all teams (almost all teams), Mercedes have just done a better job within those rules. I don't see why they should be told to leave the sport for that.


If you want parity, go watch a spec series.

No one is saying they should be asked to leave I said the way it is at the minute it would be better if they were not in F1 and I don’t think many people would agree with your point. We all just want the sport to grow and become more popular the way it is now it will be the complete opposite.

flazio

How feasible would Suzuka and Fuji be? Have Japan got the virus under control?

Parsnips

Dont think so . I cant see the Olympics going ahead next year either.

I think the public are slightly blind to how long this Epidemic could go on for.
going by news it may be well into next year before a vaccine is produced.

I vote to put hoses around every track and soak it for the whole race every race. its the best leveller we can expect for now. ( and has been for years)

Frank Bullitt

barryribs wrote: »

Its a competition, it's not Mercedes fault that the other teams couldn't get their act together for the last 6 years. The same rules apply to all teams (almost all teams), Mercedes have just done a better job within those rules. I don't see why they should be told to leave the sport for that.


If you want parity, go watch a spec series.

No, but that budget and RnD of theirs does come in handy, you'll have to admit.

vectra

Gintonious wrote: »

No, but that budget and RnD of theirs does come in handy, you'll have to admit.

Plus didn't they get a jump start on every other manufacturer with the engine.:(

barryribs

Gintonious wrote: »

No, but that budget and RnD of theirs does come in handy, you'll have to admit.

Where did they get that? Didn't McLaren have the most advanced facilities for years and Ferrari have a practically unlimited budget.

If they don't want the sport to die, they should allow teams to test and develop their cars to close the gap.

El_Duderino 09

Parsnips wrote: »

Dont think so . I cant see the Olympics going ahead next year either.

I think the public are slightly blind to how long this Epidemic could go on for.
going by news it may be well into next year before a vaccine is produced.

I worry about this too. I think we're all working on the assumption that if a vaccine is found then everything will go back to normal. It assumes that the vaccine will be highly effective like the polio vaccine. But we have a flu vaccine and it works on some flu strains, most of the time but loads of people get flu every year. If the COVID vaccine is effective to a similar extent, then I can't really see how we can go back to business as usual in loads of areas.

If distancing is still necessarily for years to come then loads of business models will have to Completely change. Take the James Bond film as an example. It was filmed on a budget that calculated it would pack out cinemas for X weeks and sell x number of cinema seats. But cinemas as onky running at half capacity right now so they've delayed the release until things go back to normal - but they might not go back to normal (without distancing) for 5 or 10 years. So when do they release the movie?

Same with f1. Silverstone assumes it can pack the stands on race day and it needs the campsites to be full to get the people there. If distancing is necessary for years then how can events like festivals and concerts and the Olympics and Silverstone go ahead at their current pricing? Maybe they could double the cost of tickets and sell half as many but I wouldn't go.

Liberty media has bought f1 for X billion and planned to sell rights tothe tracks for X million per year and sil ersrone plans to sell x tickets to the public and spaces to x food and drink vendors. If the number of people allowed into Silverstone is halved for 5 or 10 years, then none of it works anymore.

El_Duderino 09

barryribs wrote: »

Where did they get that? Didn't McLaren have the most advanced facilities for years and Ferrari have a practically unlimited budget.

If they don't want the sport to die, they should allow teams to test and develop their cars to close the gap.

The risk is that if the teams can test to their capacity then the big teams just get faster and faster and the small teams fall further behind at a faster rate. If you allow both Mercedes and Williams complete freedom to develop, Williams won't catch up, they'll fall further and further behind because Mercedes has a huge budget by comparison and can attract the best staff and can facilitate more staff. Unlimited testing won't make Williams catch up. They'd fall so far behind it would make their performance last year look good.

Infoanon

Learn from MotoGP - the successful teams have limits on testing / engine development etc etc
While the teams at the back of the grid can test and develop without restrictions
Result - very competitive grids

vectra

OSI wrote: »

New regulations provide a development handicap dependant on your performance in the championship, so the teams out front will get less development opportunity and those behind more.

If that be the case, then should Ferrari / Alfa / Haas have lots of development opportunities? ( Well Ferrari in particular for their engine )

PopePalpatine

vectra wrote: »

If that be the case, then should Ferrari / Alfa / Haas have lots of development opportunities? ( Well Ferrari in particular for their engine )

The rule just applies to constructors, not engine suppliers.

El_Duderino 09

PopePalpatine wrote: »

The rule just applies to constructors, not engine suppliers.

Sounds really sensible. Problem. With f1 is that the biggest and currently most successful teams get most influence over shaping the rules.

F1 is not just a sport. It's a mix of sport, business and entertainment. They all play into each other even if they all work to their own advantage against the others.

The successful teams getting to make the rules is an example of the business side having the upper hand over the other two aspects. And now the entertainment is really suffering because Mercedes can make sure the rules suit it against the other teams and Mercedes is also the best team with the best driver.

PukkaStukka

OSI wrote: »

New regulations provide a development handicap dependant on your performance in the championship, so the teams out front will get less development opportunity and those behind more.

That's the theory but in practice, any team that has a big advantage ends up having it "locked in" to them when there's a development freeze. That was very clear between 2014 and 2016 when engine development was frozen, and then relaxed slightly via token system. It made it very hard for anyone to go after Mercedes then because they started out with such a sizeable advantage.