Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

Inquitus

PukkaStukka wrote: »

That's the theory but in practice, any team that has a big advantage ends up having it "locked in" to them when there's a development freeze. That was very clear between 2014 and 2016 when engine development was frozen, and then relaxed slightly via token system. It made it very hard for anyone to go after Mercedes then because they started out with such a sizeable advantage.

Generally in the past one team starts out ahead, but they get to an area of very marginal gains before those left behind do, and those left behind can make bigger gains leveling the playing field.

antodeco

PopePalpatine wrote: »

The rule just applies to constructors, not engine suppliers.

So basically, Mercedes can't develop as a winning constructor, but Williams, with a Mercedes engine can still develop theirs. In turn, mercedes can then take this development and apply it directly, as they haven't actually done anything (like RP vs Mercedes)

quokula

Inquitus wrote: »

Generally in the past one team starts out ahead, but they get to an area of very marginal gains before those left behind do, and those left behind can make bigger gains leveling the playing field.

Yeah this is what has always happened in the past, along with the FIA modifying the rules to close down areas of large advantage (think double diffusers, exhaust blown diffusers, or the engine equalisation rules in the previous generation of V8s)

The current formula has been the exact opposite, with token systems preventing other teams from being allowed the chance to catch up on the head start Mercedes had in developing their engine long before the 2014 rules were confirmed, and all the other barriers like minimal testing time, limited components allowed to be used, and a steadfast refusal to look at modifying the engine formula into something more suitable for racing.

El_Duderino 09

antodeco wrote: »

So basically, Mercedes can't develop as a winning constructor, but Williams, with a Mercedes engine can still develop theirs. In turn, mercedes can then take this development and apply it directly, as they haven't actually done anything (like RP vs Mercedes)

I'd imagine that's how it would work in reality. But we already have teams with very cosy relationships like Ferrari-Haas, Red Bull-Alpha Tauri and most recently, and most worryingly, Mercedes-RP.

duploelabs

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I'd imagine that's how it would work in reality. But we already have teams with very cosy relationships like Ferrari-Haas, Red Bull-Alpha Tauri and most recently, and most worryingly, Mercedes-RP.

Haas and rp are customers of ferrari and Mercedes respectively, Alpha Tauri is a subsidiary of red bull.

El_Duderino 09

duploelabs wrote: »

Haas and rp are customers of ferrari and Mercedes respectively, Alpha Tauri is a subsidiary of red bull.

Call it whatever you want. The relationship between Mercedes and RP is a new development. Customers are allowed to buy engines and gearboxes etc. Bit nobody else is giving away whole cars like in the pink Mercedes arrangement. That's a new type of arrangement.

Anjobe

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

But we already have teams with very cosy relationships like Ferrari-Haas, Red Bull-Alpha Tauri and most recently, and most worryingly, Mercedes-RP.

That's not really fair - before 2010 Torro Rosso used the Red Bull car with different engines. Admittedly RBR weren't winning in that period, but the cars' chassis and aero stuff was identical.

namloc1980

Saw over on Reddit some stats that really stand out. Since the hybrid era began in 2014 there have been 124 Grand Prix and just 8 drivers have won a Grand Prix from 3 teams in that time. Mercedes have won 74% of them with Ferrari 14% and Red Bull 12%. Hamilton has won 52% of GPs and Rosberg has the second most wins even though he retired after 2016 with 16%.

It's total domination and far more dominant than the Red Bull era from 2010 to 2013. Even during the Schumacher championship seasons from 2000-2004 Ferrari won 67% of races.

El_Duderino 09

Anjobe wrote: »

That's not really fair - before 2010 Torro Rosso used the Red Bull car with different engines. Admittedly RBR weren't winning in that period, but the cars' chassis and aero stuff was identical.

That was allowed back then. It wasn't a problem as it was perfectly legal.

skipper_G

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Call it whatever you want. The relationship between Mercedes and RP is a new development. Customers are allowed to buy engines and gearboxes etc. Bit nobody else is giving away whole cars like in the pink Mercedes arrangement. That's a new type of arrangement.

You're suggesting that Mercedes and Racing Point entered complicity into some arrangement in contravention of the regulations?

TCP/IP

skipper_G wrote: »

You're suggesting that Mercedes and Racing Point entered complicity into some arrangement in contravention of the regulations?

If its found that certain parts of the pink panther that are not actively on show to the public eye are the same as Merc do you think that contravention of the regulations has occurred?

skipper_G

TCP/IP wrote: »

If its found that certain parts of the pink panther that are not actively on show to the public eye are the same as Merc do you think that contravention of the regulations has occurred?

That's the point of the protest and the steward's investigation, they need to determine if the regulations have been broken. And in the event they have, were Mercedes complicit or not.

Plenty here seem happy enough to assume some kind of secret arrangement without any evidence to support it. I think it's ludicrous to suggest that Mercedes would knowingly break the rules to help a competitor. It's all risk no reward for them.

As to your question, I don't think rules have been broken. If the investigation proves otherwise then I'll accept that and any sanctions that may be applied.

El_Duderino 09

skipper_G wrote: »

You're suggesting that Mercedes and Racing Point entered complicity into some arrangement in contravention of the regulations?

Whether it's a contravention of the regulations is for the FIA to decide. Like the ferrari engine ruling last year, they don't always call these things illegal.

IF they're the same or very similar under the skin, then yes. Obviously.

Whether the FIA decide smudge it all over like the ferrari engine deal or not, is another matter entirely.

What is not in dispute is that the Pink Mercedes arrangement is a new development.

El_Duderino 09

skipper_G wrote: »

...
As to your question, I don't think rules have been broken. If the investigation proves otherwise then I'll accept that and any sanctions that may be applied.

Yeah but by that logic the ferrari engine was A-O-K last year and they've just decided to use an inferior engine this year. Everyone knows it was illegal but nobody is waiting for the FIA to SAY it was illegal. They just clarify the rules for the future which is why Ferrari is using an inferior engine this year.

When it comes to teams like Ferrari and Mercedes, the rules can be remade in the tribunal to both ban the behavior in the future without causing reputational harm to either team or the sport.

Imagine how unpopular it would be if they find the arrangement is illegal and the RP car is illegal and RP have to go back to using last year's car which would take away from the battle for second in the constructors. We both know they don't blindly follow the rules (see Ferrari engine arrangement from last year). They'll come to an arrangement Merc is happy with e.g. its legal this year (and next year) but don't do it again.

skipper_G

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah but by that logic the ferrari engine was A-O-K last year and they've just decided to use an inferior engine this year. Everyone knows it was illegal but nobody is waiting for the FIA to SAY it was illegal. They just clarify the rules for the future which is why Ferrari is using an inferior engine this year.

When it comes to teams like Ferrari and Mercedes, the rules can be remade in the tribunal to both ban the behavior in the future without causing reputational harm to either team or the sport.

Imagine how unpopular it would be if they find the arrangement is illegal and the RP car is illegal and RP have to go back to using last year's car which would take away from the battle for second in the constructors. We both know they don't blindly follow the rules (see Ferrari engine arrangement from last year). They'll come to an arrangement Merc is happy with e.g. its legal this year (and next year) but don't do it again.

One thing I absolutely agree on is the need for transparency regardless of outcome. That private settlement the FIA and Ferrari reached was bull**** and should never have happened once, It certainly shouldn't happen again. If (and I stress that word) IF Racing Point broke the rules then they deserve to be punished.

Frank Bullitt

barryribs wrote: »

Where did they get that? Didn't McLaren have the most advanced facilities for years and Ferrari have a practically unlimited budget.

If they don't want the sport to die, they should allow teams to test and develop their cars to close the gap.

They get that from their parent company, who were happy to invest in a set of regulations that favoured them due to them wanting F1 to be more "relevant" to road cars etc.

Ferrari and McLaren did and still do have advanced facilities. Right now, Merc have that, huge budget and massive capacity to develop every minor detail on the car with massive amounts of money. Look at DAS for instance, nota game changer really, but huge investment to get a couple of tenths. Other teams would have to spend that budget on other things like wages, bigger aero or simply showing up to a race.

That is why the budget cap has been a hot topic so much lately. Money will get you the performance because you can buy all you need, along with having a well oiled organization to se all of that through.

To give you an example of how much these rules favoured Merc, a manufacturer in the current regs needs to commit about $1.4 billion to the project, for Merc, the return on that is investment was a $16.7 billion increase in company value since 2013. Hence why they throw the kitchen sink at it.

El_Duderino 09

skipper_G wrote: »

One thing I absolutely agree on is the need for transparency regardless of outcome. That private settlement the FIA and Ferrari reached was bull**** and should never have happened once, It certainly shouldn't happen again. If (and I stress that word) IF Racing Point broke the rules then they deserve to be punished.

Yeah but we'll almost certainly never find out if they broke the rules. Technically Ferrari didn't break the rules last year... If not for RP's sake them certainly for Mercedes' sake.

If this arrangement is deemed legal then we can expect all the Ferrari teams to have current Ferrari chassis (if they want them) from next year, both red Bulls to have Red Bull chassis and the Mercedes teams to want Mercedes current chassis next year. It will mean F1 becomes a mixed spec series with 3 teams developing chassis and the rest using the previous year's chassis....Or

They'll smudge it all over and make it as transparent as mud but not allow this arrangement in the future.

El_Duderino 09

Gintonious wrote: »

They get that from their parent company, who were happy to invest in a set of regulations that favoured them due to them wanting F1 to be more "relevant" to road cars etc.

Ferrari and McLaren did and still do have advanced facilities. Right now, Merc have that, huge budget and massive capacity to develop every minor detail on the car with massive amounts of money. Look at DAS for instance, nota game changer really, but huge investment to get a couple of tenths. Other teams would have to spend that budget on other things like wages, bigger aero or simply showing up to a race.

That is why the budget cap has been a hot topic so much lately. Money will get you the performance because you can buy all you need, along with having a well oiled organization to se all of that through.

Williams has bee using two different spec aero packages in the last few races and they have been alternating them between drivers for the first three races. They could only afford to make one set of aero parts but they hope to have the upgrade set on both cars in next weekend. That's an example of the difference between teams at the moment.

Anjobe

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Williams has bee using two different spec aero packages in the last few races and they have been alternating them between drivers for the first three races. They could only afford to make one set of aero parts but they hope to have the upgrade set on both cars in next weekend. That's an example of the difference between teams at the moment.

Everyone knows Williams are struggling, but there is not that much of a difference between Mercedes-Ferrari-Red Bull if their published spending for 2019 is to be believed ($484m vs $463m vs $445m), and Ferrari actually spent more than Mercedes in 2018. Those numbers are for the race teams only though and don't include engine development costs.

Frank Bullitt

McLaren have signed a deal with Gulf oil, you can see it on the engine cover.

Parsnips

" GULF OIL" not the best spot in the World for a logo really is it.

pjohnson

Williams have been struggling to build two cars since last year. At least now they seem to actual be building a somewhat decent car for Russell at least!

El_Duderino 09

Gintonious wrote: »

McLaren have signed a deal with Gulf oil, you can see it on the engine cover.

Thr ta good that they can attract an oil sponsor but they'll probably be using whatever oil Renault tell them to use.

Red bull had a deal with an oil supplier where but Renault developed the engine with one supplier and needed them to use their oil or the engine wouldn't work as well. So they ended up paying the Renault oil supplier off and still using the Renault oil supplier but put their oil in the new oil sponsor branded barrels.

flazio

You are allowed to say that Renault use Elf while Red Bull are sponsored by Exxon/Mobil.

duploelabs

flazio wrote: »

You are allowed to say that Renault use Elf while Red Bull are sponsored by Exxon/Mobil.

And Petronas for Mercedes

Jordan 199

flazio wrote: »

You are allowed to say that Renault use Elf while Red Bull are sponsored by Exxon/Mobil.

Renault have been using BP and Castrol for a good few years now.

No French oil company/brand involved in F1 currently.

afatbollix

Ron Dennis would be having a **** fit if he had to do PR at a filling station in Aldershot.

Remember the Vodafone days of the spice girls and million pound launch’s.


Now they get the driver to sit on the wheel in a forecourt in the crap hole that is Aldershot. Sorry to any squadys stationed there.

Cork Trucker

It was the 1997 launch that featured the spice girls when West became sponsor, no?

Jordan 199

Cork Trucker wrote: »

It was the 1997 launch that featured the spice girls when West became sponsor, no?

Correct.

donspeekinglesh

Cork Trucker wrote: »

It was the 1997 launch that featured the spice girls when West became sponsor, no?

Yeah, along with Jamiroquai. It was put out as a TV special after. I remember being very annoyed as it only had the concert bits, not the car launch bits.