All's not well in FG.

James Brown

Calhoun wrote: »

Look at it from a tax payer perspective, i get ****ed either way. At least ill probably get less ****ed with FG/FF. With SF ill pay more tax, get less services, compared to people who contribute very little who will get a nice house built more than likely closer to employment than i currently am.

The only way i would consider voting for a more left aligned party is i saw some considerable change in how we manage our welfare system and what people get. We cannot even manage the current council stock from the perspective of occupancy rates and moving people around because people think its a house for life.

Additionally, until they get rid of some more of the extreme heads in Sinn Fein i wouldn't fancy them in government. We aren't to far off the Marie Cahill controversy.

You don't know that. Not one political party advocates on behalf of people who don't want to work. Any issues people have currently are on FG/FG. Saying they could be worse is all FF or FG have to offer.
FG are not making a good go of it for the tax payer. The waste is ridiculous and proven failed policies as regards the trickle down myth have long been debunked. The wealthy aren't giving back they are making off FG sucking the tax payer dry and it won't last.

Calhoun

Idbatterim wrote: »

labour in the uk seem to be something many of us would be ok with, they seem pretty balanced! the options here are just comedy , comedy!

Even at that the whole antisemitism stuff dogging them lately has taken the shine off.

Matt Barrett wrote: »

You don't know that. Not one political party advocates on behalf of people who don't want to work. Any issues people have currently are on FG/FG. Saying they could be worse is all FF or FG have to offer.
FG are not making a good go of it for the tax payer. The waste is ridiculous and proven failed policies as regards the trickle down myth have long been debunked. The wealthy aren't giving back they are making off FG sucking the tax payer dry and it won't last.

You don't know the opposite either, the only party you have actually pushed forward as an alternative have a fairly bloody past, up until the past couple of years. They also have plenty of allegations of bullying and seem to be undemocratic.

I am open minded though im not stuck to any party but just more cautious of the ones that i know will tax me into oblivion.

Jinglejangle69

Didn’t Sinn Fein oppose cutting USC when the government suggested it?

McMurphy

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Didn’t Sinn Fein oppose cutting USC when the government suggested it?

Opposed it as in they said that it couldn't be done at that time due to the money not being there , and then Packie and pals reneged on their promise to scrap it because guess what
..... The money wasn't there.

Or maybe you think Fg just didn't scrap it/reduce it because SF were against it?


Did you start your ff thread yet btw?

Jinglejangle69

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Opposed it as in they said that it couldn't be done at that time due to the money not being there , and then Packie and pals reneged on their promise to scrap it because guess what
..... The money wasn't there.

Or maybe you think Fg just didn't scrap it/reduce it because SF were against it?


Did you start your ff thread yet btw?

Would you care to share the same rage at FF as you do at FG if I do open one?

https://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/20382

“Sinn Féin Spokesperson on Finance Pearse Doherty has tonight moved the Sinn Féin Private Members motion which seeks the abolition of the Universal Social Charge.”

They changed their minds radically don’t you think?

In 2011 when we had no money they wanted to abolish USC.

Liberta Per Gli Ultra

Calhoun wrote: »

Look at it from a tax payer perspective, i get ****ed either way. At least ill probably get less ****ed with FG/FF. With SF ill pay more tax, get less services, compared to people who contribute very little who will get a nice house built more than likely closer to employment than i currently am.

The only way i would consider voting for a more left aligned party is i saw some considerable change in how we manage our welfare system and what people get. We cannot even manage the current council stock from the perspective of occupancy rates and moving people around because people think its a house for life.

If you're searching for reasons to stick with Fine Gael, I'd stay away from the topic of services. Ideologically, they're not mad on public services and it shows. Then again I don't think you're really searching, you've laid out your preconceived views as a "middle income earner" being "squeezed" by the wealthy elite above you and the poor below you. A funny image that paints poor people as a powerful enemy of the middle class.

McMurphy

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Would you care to share the same rage at FF as you do at FG if I do open one?

I'll tell you what, why don't you open one instead of the almost 100% constant whatabouting and whinging about them and the shinners, almost exclusively since you have opened this account, on this and other forums, and you'll find out.

https://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/20382

“Sinn F Spokesperson on Finance Pearse Doherty has tonight moved the Sinn F Private Members motion which seeks the abolition of the Universal Social Charge.”

They changed their minds radically don’t you think?

In 2011 when we had no money they wanted to abolish USC.

2011, seriously?

Let me guess, they'd be wrong for wanting it abolished because the money wasn't there, and they were also wrong years later when the money still wasn't there.

You're continuing on with a parody persona right?

Calhoun

Liberta Per Gli Ultra wrote: »

If you're searching for reasons to stick with Fine Gael, I'd stay away from the topic of services. Ideologically, they're not mad on public services and it shows. Then again I don't think you're really searching, you've laid out your preconceived views as a "middle income earner" being "squeezed" by the wealthy elite above you and the poor below you. A funny image that paints poor people as a powerful enemy of the middle class.

Well i prefer to look at it as that is the political groupings our politicians have put themselves into. There is not one group that really wants to drive an equitable society. If my options are some of the left styled groups who would rather i pay more tax for less services or the existing crowd where i pay around the same with the still ****ty services i know what ill be selecting.

The only party offered up to me as an option is not fairly credible in my mind.

Liberta Per Gli Ultra

Calhoun wrote: »

Well i prefer to look at it as that is the political groupings our politicians have put themselves into.

You're not obliged to buy into any of the narratives put forward by politicians. If you buy into the vilification of people who require support from the state, that's on you.

Calhoun wrote: »

There is not one group that really wants to drive an equitable society. If my options are some of the left styled groups who would rather i pay more tax for less services or the existing crowd where i pay around the same with the still ****ty services i know what ill be selecting.

You're painting your own picture there, and if you're looking for equitable then inequality of means and opportunity need to be addressed.

Calhoun

Liberta Per Gli Ultra wrote: »

You're not obliged to buy into any of the narratives put forward by politicians. If you buy into the vilification of people who require support from the state, that's on you.



You're painting your own picture there, and if you're looking for equitable then inequality of means and opportunity need to be addressed.

Indeed ill do what I want, and make my own mind up. Thank you for the approval.

#**** happens. Night Ted.

pjohnson

So after years of whinging about FG. People will vote FG again :pac:

Calhoun

pjohnson wrote: »

So after years of whinging about FG. People will vote FG again :pac:

Not necessarily but keeping an open mind, discussions like these are always good to tease out what the different parties stand and do not stand for.

An easy choice for voters who don't want FG is to jump ship to FF.

markodaly

markodaly wrote: »

This is a good question.
We all know this government is dead in the water. Surprised it has lasted this long, to be honest.

An election to come in the next few months, so maybe posters can be honest on who they would like to see replace FG in government and why..

All we usually get is, 'sure they can't be any worse..' which is not really a reason.

Quoting my own post, seeing as that only one person actually fronted up on who they are going to vote for and why.

Although Matt seems to be going for FF all the way, which I find funny.

Matt: "FF cannot be any worse than this FG shower.."
Brian Cowen: "Hold my beer..."

Calhoun

markodaly wrote: »

Quoting my own post, seeing as that only one person actually fronted up on who they are going to vote for and why.

Although Matt seems to be going for FF all the way, which I find funny.

Matt: "FF cannot be any worse than this FG shower.."
Brian Cowen: "Hold my beer..."

Its not easy, as our voting system doesn't make it as such. If you look at our governments they have been centre right since nearly the founding of the state. The left just cannot seem to make inroads because of many themes touched off of in this thread.

I still don't think they are at a stage where they have put enough of a gap to do that. The one great hope we did have the liberal democrats seem to have fallen to the wayside around the time they had a split over one of their candidates lying about their background.

So people switching from FG to FF is a soft protest vote, the more harder protest vote is going to the current flavor of the month which is the green party.

markodaly

Our voting system now means that overall majorities are next to impossible, so its all about coalitions.
That means horse trading and bargining, which means policies are watered down so that vested interests who favour one party over another are usually left off the hook.
From the Law Society, Hosptial Consultants, the VFI to the Unions and PS... we muddle along, tipping away at the edge of problems.
Its what we vote for, its what we want as a people.

It makes for very stable politics, but breeds inertia, laziness and makes things very stale.
Do people honestly think, the next government is going to be radically different from this one? If its FF definately more populist alright but not radical. FF are anything but radical.
The 'one for everyone in the audience' party, but we have seen the manifestation of that in 2008-2011 when chickens came home to roost.

Liberta Per Gli Ultra

Calhoun wrote: »

If you look at our governments they have been centre right since nearly the founding of the state. The left just cannot seem to make inroads because of many themes touched off of in this thread.

http://www.universitytimes.ie/2018/04/left-behind/

Calhoun

markodaly wrote: »

Our voting system now means that overall majorities are next to impossible, so its all about coalitions.
That means horse trading and bargining, which means policies are watered down so that vested interests who favour one party over another are usually left off the hook.
From the Law Society, Hosptial Consultants, the VFI to the Unions and PS... we muddle along, tipping away at the edge of problems.
Its what we vote for, its what we want as a people.

It makes for very stable politics, but breeds inertia, laziness and makes things very stale.
Do people honestly think, the next government is going to be radically different from this one? If its FF definately more populist alright but not radical. FF are anything but radical.
The 'one for everyone in the audience' party, but we have seen the manifestation of that in 2008-2011 when chickens came home to roost.

I don't think people think that it will be radically different just they will switch from one side to another as a form of protest.

The problem with the not so radical and boring in FG is that there hasn't been enough carrot or progress since 2011, people get very tired and unforgiving when they aren't really given a bone so much so that they would go align with a party like FF again.

Calhoun

Liberta Per Gli Ultra wrote: »

http://www.universitytimes.ie/2018/04/left-behind/

This article was written before the local election and this one https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/opinion-left-wing-parties-need-to-learn-to-work-together-if-they-want-to-challenge-the-status-quo-4663449-Jun2019/ was written after it.

I don't see a huge evidence that the left is on the rise, maybe we will see in the up and coming general election.

Liberta Per Gli Ultra

Calhoun wrote: »

I don't see a huge evidence that the left is on the rise

Neither do I, just thought it was worth a read.

Calhoun

Liberta Per Gli Ultra wrote: »

Neither do I, just thought it was worth a read.

Not to derail the thread further, i do hope that we get a credible centre left part in place that can challenge the status quo and we can see some change but right now there is nothing comfortable that is resonating with voters. That works well for FG and FF.

As i have said earlier i personally will benefit from a tax system that does more with what it gets, i would even pay more if i knew the quality of service would go up.

markodaly

Calhoun wrote: »

I don't think people think that it will be radically different just they will switch from one side to another as a form of protest.

The problem with the not so radical and boring in FG is that there hasn't been enough carrot or progress since 2011, people get very tired and unforgiving when they aren't really given a bone so much so that they would go align with a party like FF again.

I would agree that FG are a little boring, maybe lacking urgency and vision. They are more a safe pair of hands to administer the country, than say FF.

But with obvious issues to solve in Housing and Health among othersr, people want fixes and solutions, which is fair enough. However, said fixes and solutions are often at odds with what people want also, which is the riddle of Irish politics and soceity. Change the system but dont make me suffer in return. Its an impossible choice.

FF cover this up by giving everyone more of what they want, namely handouts. They are not going to change the country, but may make people feel better in the short term with populist measures. That is why generally FF are in power more often than not. But it is no way to run a country either.

Calhoun

markodaly wrote: »

I would agree that FG are a little boring, maybe lacking urgency and vision. They are more a safe pair of hands to administer the country, than say FF.

But with obvious issues to solve in Housing and Health among othersr, people want fixes and solutions, which is fair enough. However, said fixes and solutions are often at odds with what people want also, which is the riddle of Irish politics and soceity. Change the system but dont make me suffer in return. Its an impossible choice.

FF cover this up by giving everyone more of what they want, namely handouts. They are not going to change the country, but may make people feel better in the short term with populist measures. That is why generally FF are in power more often than not. But it is no way to run a country either.

Irish people being Irish people we have had many examples where the government has tried to build and NIMBIYSM has wont out. Its not just been from the FG or FF politicians its also from folk in labor ect.

Then we have the health system which has gotten to a stage of trial by media. The one time the government tried to push back on a drugs company trying to bend the country over due to a CF drug it was in the press for weeks until they folded.

Problem is for them is people still expect some level of change or betterment. We shall see how it goes, i wouldn't write them off but i would also not discount FF either.

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Not one political party advocates on behalf of people who don't want to work.

This is simply not true. Sinn Fein and PBP have long advocated against JobPath and other previous schemes that aim to get people out of long-term unemployment. The only reason to argue against such schemes is to protect people who don't want to work.

blanch152

markodaly wrote: »

FF cover this up by giving everyone more of what they want, namely handouts. They are not going to change the country, but may make people feel better in the short term with populist measures. That is why generally FF are in power more often than not. But it is no way to run a country either.

This is so true, see the latest on the rent freeze Bill.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/government-to-block-threeyear-rent-freeze-despite-support-from-tds-38773764.html

Fianna Fail know this will not work but they can't resist the opportunity to take electoral advantage for cynical reasons. How do they resolve it?

"While supporting the bill at second stage, the party's housing spokesman Darragh O'Brien said his party will seek amendments at committee stage to protect so-called 'mom and pop' landlords and accidental landlords who typically own one property.

Measures it will seek include maintaining mortgage interest relief for landlords as well as introducing tax reliefs for local property tax payments, refurbishment costs and any loss of rental income."

Handouts.

Absolutely typical FF. They know this measure will reduce the supply of rental properties to they offer taxpayer handouts to landlords to reduce the short-term effect. What is worse, when the temporary rent freeze is removed, FF will maintain the handouts for landlords.

Yet, we’ve got the third highest quality of life in the world. They must be doing something right. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ireland-has-third-highest-quality-of-life-in-world-says-un-report-1.4110646

Plumbthedepths

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/columnists/fergus-finlay/fergus-finlay-bad-behaviour-goes-unpunished-for-some-so-it-will-continue-to-happen-969384.html



Leo claims he wants to end the lax expenses claim system for politicians. Turkey's voting for Christmas comes to mind.

Plumbthedepths

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yet, we’ve got the third highest quality of life in the world. They must be doing something right. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ireland-has-third-highest-quality-of-life-in-world-says-un-report-1.4110646

Colette's take is interesting.

https://m.independent.ie/opinion/comment/colette-browne-the-rich-get-richer-and-the-poor-and-middleclass-stagnate-because-the-system-is-designed-that-way-38773780.html

McMurphy

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/columnists/fergus-finlay/fergus-finlay-bad-behaviour-goes-unpunished-for-some-so-it-will-continue-to-happen-969384.html



Leo cleans he wants to end the lax expenses claim system for politicians. Turkey's voting for Christmas comes to mind.

Big FCUK YOU, to the incoming new govt?

They had their fun, and that's all that matters.

blanch152

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Colette's take is interesting.

https://m.independent.ie/opinion/comment/colette-browne-the-rich-get-richer-and-the-poor-and-middleclass-stagnate-because-the-system-is-designed-that-way-38773780.html

Yes, she refutes an international independent report by drawing on a report by an "independent" trade union body.