All's not well in FG.

Plumbthedepths

blanch152 wrote: »

Firstly, I missed the welcome a new mod thread, so congratulations on the new appointment.



It was a suggestion I even used the word 'suggestion'
Secondly, you broke your own thread rule half a dozen posts later by mentioning FF.

Rule? Cop on to yourself my mention of FF was in reply


Thirdly, your comment is factually inaccurate. FF and FG still command over 60% of the support of the electorate, so clearly a majority of voters disagree with your opinion.

Lastly the fact that we have not had single party government in 4 decades gives weight to my comment. You really should read the comments before you wade in with your usual nonsense.

blanch152

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Lastly the fact that we have not had single party government in 4 decades gives weight to my comment. You really should read the comments before you wade in with your usual nonsense.

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Why? FG and FF have both proved through the years that they cannot be fully trusted. Happily the majority of voters share my opinion.

Your quote only makes sense if it refers to them both, because otherwise the only other conclusion is that the electorate trust every other party even less, and that FF and FG are the most trusted parties.

So either way, your conclusion is factually misplaced.

Liberta Per Gli Ultra

Calhoun wrote: »

Hilarious but at the same time illustrates the problem with allot of the opposition. They don't know how to reach the electorate in a meaningful way so its somehow the electorates fault.

While there's a degree of truth to that cartoon, there's also a bang of middle class arrogance off it and the question at the top is missing a party.

"How could the Brits vote for those Tory Bastards and those Labour Bastards" asked Pooh.

"As with Fine Gael and Fianna Fail in Ireland, they can vote for the openly anti-working class party or the party that pays lip service" replied Piglet.

"So they're f*cked and stuck in a rigged economic/political system" said Pooh.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/commentisfree/2019/jan/12/brexit-remainer-leave-voters-labour-northern-people

Idbatterim

Good article by Ronan Lyons here...

https://m.independent.ie/opinion/comment/ronan-lyons-state-is-foregoing-billions-in-revenue-with-low-property-tax-38785997.html

suicide_circus

Idbatterim wrote: »

Good article by Ronan Lyons here...

https://m.independent.ie/opinion/comment/ronan-lyons-state-is-foregoing-billions-in-revenue-with-low-property-tax-38785997.html

i honestly would not complain if my LPT doubled tomorrow. Our house is inside the m50 for reference.

Idbatterim

suicide_circus wrote: »

i honestly would not complain if my LPT doubled tomorrow. Our house is inside the m50 for reference.

The biggest issue I have with taxation here is , that so many people are very squeezed and the more money they have , the more they waste. I’d question even bothering with an lpt that brings in the pittance ours does ...

The top current rate of motor tax is e2350. You’d need a 2.5 million valued house to pay that rate ! Yet many cars are nearly worthless and paying the 1809 rate on the older system

They tax labor at an outrageous rate over a pittance. That has serious consequences, you can’t tax labour over a pittance at fifty percent and not have poor outcomes....

suicide_circus

it all comes back to the utterly shocking levels of inefficiency and waste in the places where this money is ultimately spent. if the people had faith that increased taxes would mean improved services most would be happy to pay it but everyone knows it would be pissed away on middle management bloat and nudge nudge wink wink practices.

golfball37

The cost of government is far too high for what we get. That’s why new or increased taxes are met with opposition from my point of view. I’m in a 2 income home with childcare and commute costs. IE standard family. The squeezed middle is not a cliche, it’s very real imo.

_Kaiser_

Deleted User wrote: »

Why “thankfully”? Wouldn’t it be better to have a single party with an overall majority rather than a mishmash of single policy independents?

Why? We saw what happened from 2011-2016 when FG have too much control over things (LAB being FG lite at the time)

- All the stuff under Kenny I referred to on the previous page
- The ignoring of our parliamentary system (which while far from great is still better than FG railroading legislation through the Dail unapposed)
- Aside from the economy upswing (which frankly I think they've done everything possible to hinder through the property, commuting, healthcare and general costs of living problems that have worsensed under their watch), and some easy-win social referenda, they've done very little good at all and it's debatable if you could even credit them with the latter.

They had a once in a lifetime chance in 2011 to reform politics ("New Politics" you might call it!) and life generally in this country. It would have been painful but the people were willing to support it if it meant REALLY changing things.

Instead we got "business as usual" from the moment the likes of Reilly got their feet under the desks, and a lot more besides.

THAT'S why! Because when FG are in power, they just prove to be worse than the alternatives.

As I've said before, FG should really adopt the slogan "making FF electable again!" because that is all they've done now and indeed historically. They're a protest vote party.. fit for only 1 term. The only reason they got the second this time was Enda was determined to get his "record" of being the only FG Taoiseach to get a second consecutive term - even if meant giving the likes of Ross and Zappone a seat at the table!

You complain about the "FG bashing threads", but your ire is directed at the wrong people. You should be directing it to your party of choice who just keep providing ample material to criticise them with.

Snow Garden

I reckon we'll have an election in January.

Snow Garden

Snow Garden wrote: »

I reckon we'll have an election in January.

Not unless it’s called in the morning!

McMurphy

Paudie Coffey hanging up his boots I see, few articles about it and all of them refer to his son and an accident he had (not his reason fo retiring might I add), not sure what it's referring to though?

Geuze

Calhoun wrote: »

Hilarious but at the same time illustrates the problem with allot of the opposition. They don't know how to reach the electorate in a meaningful way so its somehow the electorates fault.

In Ireland's case our left side of the house is an absolute mess with no consistent messaging or voice.

Yes 100%.

The job of the opposition is to be a believable alternative.

Not to attack voters.

James Brown

Calhoun wrote: »

Hilarious but at the same time illustrates the problem with allot of the opposition. They don't know how to reach the electorate in a meaningful way so its somehow the electorates fault.

In Ireland's case our left side of the house is an absolute mess with no consistent messaging or voice.

Geuze wrote: »

Yes 100%.

The job of the opposition is to be a believable alternative.

Not to attack voters.

It's not that simple.
The left will talk about helping those in need, equality, taxing the rich etc.
Sounds like and is spun like 'foreva homes' and looking after 'dem dat won't work' and the 'immigrants'.

The right will talk about helping those who help themselves and like to get up early. In reality look after business and throw the great unwashed enough bones to keep them quiet while the real people make money, with little or no effort to help society as a whole in any area, while overseeing record breaking crises.

The right sell it better but just about every party will look after the tax paying day to day workers over and above Fine Gael.

No party advocates for 'dem dat don't want to work'.
On the opposition; when FG were on it they were looking for more handouts during 'the boom', then after the boom FF were the worst...until they got into bed

Calhoun

Matt Barrett wrote: »

It's not that simple.
The left will talk about helping those in need, equality, taxing the rich etc.
Sounds like and is spun like 'foreva homes' and looking after 'dem dat won't work' and the 'immigrants'.

The right will talk about helping those who help themselves and like to get up early. In reality look after business and throw the great unwashed enough bones to keep them quiet while the real people make money, with little or no effort to help society as a whole in any area, while overseeing record breaking crises.

The right sell it better but just about every party will look after the tax paying day to day workers over and above Fine Gael.

No party advocates for 'dem dat don't want to work'.
On the opposition; when FG were on it they were looking for more handouts during 'the boom', then after the boom FF were the worst...until they got into bed

No it is that simple, how many Boris Johnson's or Trumps do we need in this world before the collective we cop on to the fact that if you adopt an approach of attacking the common voter on many fronts you wont get into office.

Its not about what they "probably" would do if they were in office but its about what they actually say and do before hand. Why would voters believe they will be looked after by any group that spends allot of the time attacking them?

James Brown

Calhoun wrote: »

No it is that simple, how many Boris Johnson's or Trumps do we need in this world before the collective we cop on to the fact that if you adopt an approach of attacking the common voter on many fronts you wont get into office.

Its not about what they "probably" would do if they were in office but its about what they actually say and do before hand. Why would voters believe they will be looked after by any group that spends allot of the time attacking them?

Trump and Johnson told and tell complete lies and sell fairy tales. People like what they hear and most are reluctant to admit their vote is why they get what they get. It's all immigrants and snowflakes, bum boys, Mexican rapists and so on. Our FG is the same but on a much smaller scale where some are programmed to blame immigrants, Margret Cash etc. for their woes.
I don't blame the voters for getting conned. It's not like anyone called them 'whingers' right?

Enda Kenny describes Castlebar locals as ‘whingers’
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/enda-kenny-describes-castlebar-locals-as-whingers-1.2543279

Calhoun

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Trump and Johnson told and tell complete lies and sell fairy tales. People like what they hear and most are reluctant to admit their vote is why they get what they get. It's all immigrants and snowflakes, bum boys, Mexican rapists and so on. Our FG is the same but on a much smaller scale where some are programmed to blame immigrants, Margret Cash etc. for their woes.
I don't blame the voters for getting conned.

You don't find it strange that even when they told lies and half truths that they were still more palatable than what the left side of the house had to offer? Sometimes its better the devil you know than the devil you don't, who knows the outcome from politicians who spend time attacking common voters.

I didn't know FG did any of those things? but picking one example out of what you have said, is Cash really the poster child you want to protect on the left.

Just seen your last edit, Enda Kenny is no longer leader of the party and he had to move on because he had become super unpopular to the extent that it could have unsettled the government. His actions left us in a situation where we have so many independents in know and a government that is propped up by FF. If we are going to throw stones at that era we have many worse examples from labour, who didn't look after people more when they got into government to the extent it nearly destroyed them.

Jinglejangle69

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Trump and Johnson told and tell complete lies and sell fairy tales. People like what they hear and most are reluctant to admit their vote is why they get what they get. It's all immigrants and snowflakes, bum boys, Mexican rapists and so on. Our FG is the same but on a much smaller scale where some are programmed to blame immigrants, Margret Cash etc. for their woes.
I don't blame the voters for getting conned. It's not like anyone called them 'whingers' right?

You now disregard over a 100 million people who voted for trump and Boris because you think people like been peddled lies and then somehow compare FG to them???

You are unbelievable you really are.

Like bum boys? What are you actually talking about???

The spin and absolute made up theories is mind boggling.

Snow Garden

I much preferred Pintman Paddy

James Brown

Calhoun wrote: »

You don't find it strange that even when they told lies and half truths that they were still more palatable than what the left side of the house had to offer? Sometimes its better the devil you know than the devil you don't, who knows the outcome from politicians who spend time attacking common voters.

I didn't know FG did any of those things? but picking one example out of what you have said, is Cash really the poster child you want to protect on the left.

Just seen your last edit, Enda Kenny is no longer leader of the party and he had to move on because he had become super unpopular to the extent that it could have unsettled the government. His actions left us in a situation where we have so many independents in know and a government that is propped up by FF. If we are going to throw stones at that era we have many worse examples from labour, who didn't look after people more when they got into government to the extent it nearly destroyed them.

Agreed. You might see from time to time people posting, 'better the devil you know', 'the others would be worse', 'best of a bad lot' or 'we've no options'. Hardly praise and positive endorsement.
Basically, we know what we'll get and having FF and FG gives the illusion of change and allows us to protest vote one in over the other. FF and FG need each other to help keep out any other options.

You are proving my point. Cash is used by the right leaning as the poster girl for what you'll get more of under 'the left'. Blaming the odd chancer and the left for policies enacted by FG/FF. Cash, like Dara Murphy, did nothing illegal. You might not like the behaviour, but we need look at policy not Murphy or Cash to solve it for us.

Yes I almost forgot, mostly used by Fianna Fail, but the 'things have changed' 'clean sweep' 'new faces' con. Kenny is merrily clocking in, (is he doing it himself?) sometimes earning in two different countries the same day. Varadkar allowed Dara do that for two years. He completely vindicated Bailey.
And yes the minority partners who enable FF/FG have their blame never said otherwise. On that note, why did Labour get crucified for backing FG when FG didn't do great but survived? Because we hold the left to a higher standard. Another advantage for the (better the) devil we know.

James Brown

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

You now disregard over a 100 million people who voted for trump and Boris because you think people like been peddled lies and then somehow compare FG to them???

You are unbelievable you really are.

Like bum boys? What are you actually talking about???

The spin and absolute made up theories is mind boggling.

"Rar, rar, rar, no one understands you she bear"

Jinglejangle69

Matt Barrett wrote: »

"Rar, rar, rar, no one understands you she bear"

Care to explain your bum boys comment?

James Brown

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Care to explain your bum boys comment?

Nope. Google 'bum boys' and Boris Johnson .

Idbatterim

I’d question if fg performance has been more inexcusable , than ff under the collapse and bail out , which would also nearly one hundred percent have happened with fg in power

Jinglejangle69

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Nope. Google 'bum boys' and Boris Johnson .

Just did it there.

So it was a homophobic slur by Boris Johnson.

You said FG supporters like to hear these soundbites.

Yet the FG leader is homosexual.

Once again what are you actually talking about!???

Jinglejangle69

Idbatterim wrote: »

I’d question if fg performance has been more inexcusable , than ff under the collapse and bail out , which would also nearly one hundred percent have happened with fg in power

Yeah 1.5 billion debt for 100 years because of FF.

But FG are worst because they would have done it even though they didn’t but they would have but they didn’t.

Yeah but they would have so their worst.

Ah give me a break.

Jinglejangle69

Snow Garden wrote: »

I much preferred Pintman Paddy

I preferred For Reals.

Especially when he was a mod.

Pity he was forced to step down due to bias against a party:)

James Brown

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Just did it there.

So it was a homophobic slur by Boris Johnson.

You said FG supporters like to hear these soundbites.

Yet the FG leader is homosexual.

Once again what are you actually talking about!???

I said 'rar rar rar'

Calhoun

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Agreed. You might see from time to time people posting, 'better the devil you know', 'the others would be worse', 'best of a bad lot' or 'we've no options'. Hardly praise and positive endorsement.
Basically, we know what we'll get and having FF and FG gives the illusion of change and allows us to protest vote one in over the other. FF and FG need each other to help keep out any other options.

You are proving my point. Cash is used by the right leaning as the poster girl for what you'll get more of under 'the left'. Blaming the odd chancer and the left for policies enacted by FG/FF. Cash, like Dara Murphy, did nothing illegal. You might not like the behaviour, but we need look at policy not Murphy or Cash to solve it for us.

Yes I almost forgot, mostly used by Fianna Fail, but the 'things have changed' 'clean sweep' 'new faces' con. Kenny is merrily clocking in, (is he doing it himself?) sometimes earning in two different countries the same day. Varadkar allowed Dara do that for two years. He completely vindicated Bailey.
And yes the minority partners who enable FF/FG have their blame never said otherwise. On that note, why did Labour get crucified for backing FG when FG didn't do great but survived? Because we hold the left to a higher standard. Another advantage for the (better the) devil we know.

Nobody is implying its praise that you are selecting the best of a bad bunch, it just tells you what the alternative are offering is just not resonating. Look at Labour in the UK as an example, coal mining towns decimated Thatcher era policies actually voted Tory candidates.

How would Cash be any different under left leaning government? For an odd chancer she has had many supporters on the left side of the house. I agree policy changes need to happen but individuals taking advantage of the system will still be talked about. I suppose the difference in the case of Cash versus Murphy is that Murphy is open season you can say what you like about him. Cash is protected species which has led to an entitlement which brought her to national fame.

The reason that the left are held to a higher standard is that is what they preach themselves, they live and die by that sword. So if you lie about your core principles and turn away from your support base what do you expect to happen?

Anyway, my original point remains that if you attack voters don't expect votes.

James Brown

Calhoun wrote: »

Nobody is implying its praise that you are selecting the best of a bad bunch, it just tells you what the alternative are offering is just not resonating. Look at Labour in the UK as an example, coal mining towns decimated Thatcher era policies actually voted Tory candidates.

How would Cash be any different under left leaning government? For an odd chancer she has had many supporters on the left side of the house. I agree policy changes need to happen but individuals taking advantage of the system will still be talked about. I suppose the difference in the case of Cash versus Murphy is that Murphy is open season you can say what you like about him. Cash is protected species which has led to an entitlement which brought her to national fame.

The reason that the left are held to a higher standard is that is what they preach themselves, they live and die by that sword. So if you lie about your core principles and turn away from your support base what do you expect to happen?

Anyway, my original point remains that if you attack voters don't expect votes.

It would only change if policy changed looking at Cash under any government is a waste of time if not more so when using her to be critical of a government we've not had, (PBP etc.).
I don't think poor quality opposition is an excuse. If you vote Fine Gael have the balls to own it and take responsibility for it.
Doesn't help her on boards. We've nobody defending her. Murphy was paid to represent the public makes him a worse case IMO.

Do the right promise quangos, jobs for the boys and inappropriate behaviour coupled with year on year record breaking crises?

I agree it's not good to insult voters. That's why FG elevated Paul Murphy's profile during the water protests.