Bullies never win????

Wanderer78

hawley wrote:

I bullied a boy at school, as part of a group. We both did fine in life. I don't think you can make sweeping statements like "Bullies never win". Bullying can be as traumatic for the actual bully as it is for the person being bullied. There was a report published recently saying that everyone involved in the bullying will be scarred by it. My mother was we quite strict and had ultra religious beliefs. I wanted to win her praise so we picked on a guy who we thought was gay. We physically assaulted and harassed him for years. It was around the time of AIDS being in the news and we used that to make sure everyone was afraid to go near him.

I have to hand it to you for admitting to bullying, but you certainly don't have the right to speak for your victim, how do you know that he is doing fine, have you actually spoken to him? There's a good chance he lived, or possibly still lives with the trauma

hawley

gmisk wrote: »

Bullying can be as traumatic for the bully as it is for the person being bullied?!?
What a load of rubbish!
How exactly can you justify that?

Your right to feel embarrassed by what you did, that we can agree on.

Firstly there's a lot of evidence to say that it is true. I also feel bad about it years later. I'm still friends with some of the others in the group and if it ever comes up, you'd know how big an impact being the person who bullied has had on their lives. We all had something bad happen to us in childhood and it came out in school. Even bystanders can be victims of it, can be traumatic to feel powerless to help a victim.

Wanderer78

hawley wrote:

Firstly there's a lot of evidence to say that it is true. I also feel bad about it years later. I'm still friends with some of the others in the group and if it ever comes up, you'd know how big an impact being the person who bullied has had on their lives. We all had something bad happen to us in childhood and it came out in school. Even bystanders can be victims of it, can be traumatic to feel powerless to help a victim.

I will agree that bullying can be traumatic for bullies to, but you still don't have the right to speak for your victim, you don't have the right to say it was equally difficult for you, as you do not know how your victim has felt or still feels. If this is still difficult for you, maybe you should seek help for it, but be mindful of the pain your victim may still experience

hawley

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I have to hand it to you for admitting to bullying, but you certainly don't have the right to speak for your victim, how do you know that he is doing fine, have you actually spoken to him? There's a good chance he lived, or possibly still lives with the trauma

Of course I can't fully say, but he seems to be doing quite well. I only know of him through looking at his social media profiles and through people who know him. I don't think anyone can really answer that question about someone else.

Wanderer78

hawley wrote:

Of course I can't fully say, but he seems to be doing quite well. I only know of him through looking at his social media profiles. I don't think anyone can really answer that question about someone else.

No, nobody can answer that, only the victim, a person may seem like they're fine, but internally are crushed, never ever underestimate the destruction bullying can cause. it's always important to remember, the life one presents on social media, may not in fact be their reality

DeanAustin

Faugheen wrote: »

Or how about the adults responsible do something about it?

If you see someone being bullied. Call them out. Report it.

Bullies win because people like you sit on your hands and act like it’s none of your business.

This nonsense of ‘don’t wait for society’, do something about it then. The only person waiting for society is you.

The most common place I see adult bullying is in the workplace and it's somewhere where bullies prosper.

When you ask people to do something about it, their common answer is "no way, if I do it, I'll suffer in the long run." And they may not be wrong.

Easy to throw out "confront the bullies" but most people won't if there is a chance they'll lose out personally.

Galwayguy35

Got bullied myself because I was smaller than the rest at the time and quiet as well, group of them gave me a bit of a kicking in the toilets and I told my folks who in turn told the teachers.

The teacher gave them a bollocking and I was seen as a grass and it solved nothing, the only thing I learned was to keep my mouth shut and I stuck it out until I grew up as big as them and then it stopped when I could fight back.

Heebie

Mic 1972 wrote:

Stand up to bullies or stay away, dont expect "society" to resolve the issue

I tried staying away... they came after me.
I tried standing up for myself, and *I* got in trouble. (Detentions, suspended from school etc...)

davedonie

I got bullied in school, for years. To avoid them I was last into class so as to arrive after teacher, and first out, and at break I found an out of the way place. So I was seen as a trouble maker, last in, first out, caught places your not supposed to be. And when I got to my lowest the teachers were worried and called in my mother, who assumed I was down cos of what was going on at home.

Anyway, you leave school and you get on with it and you have the laughs and enjoy life.

I found the weirdest thing was getting a job and people treating my like an actual normal human. It took awhile but you get to realise nobody has the right to single you out as a target for their games just cos your quiet or clearly gay. I dont think anybody wins, we all just get on with our lives.
I've bumped into one of them since, he looked mortified. But he was a kid and thought it was fun at the time.

Wanderer78

davedonie wrote: »

I got bullied in school, for years. To avoid them I was last into class so as to arrive after teacher, and first out, and at break I found an out of the way place. So I was seen as a trouble maker, last in, first out, caught places your not supposed to be. And when I got to my lowest the teachers were worried and called in my mother, who assumed I was down cos of what was going on at home.

Anyway, you leave school and you get on with it and you have the laughs and enjoy life.

I found the weirdest thing was getting a job and people treating my like an actual normal human. It took awhile but you get to realise nobody has the right to single you out as a target for their games just cos your quiet or clearly gay. I dont think anybody wins, we all just get on with our lives.
I've bumped into one of them since, he looked mortified. But he was a kid and thought it was fun at the time.

unfortunately, some simply dont get on with their lives, the trauma can last a lifetime, causing all sorts of complex issues

the point i was making that caused such umbrage is that self-declaration of bullying victimhood is no more reliable than any other self-anointed position

and that, as others have pointed out, all human interactions are hugely subjective.

most of the statements about bullies, bullying, the bullied in this thread seem to me to be cant, almost a positivity/reassurance repetition mantra

in work in particular the people i see "bullied" are just being asked to do something theyd rather not, its a bit of a joke tbh

Wibbs

freshpopcorn wrote: »

If I ever had children I wouldn't feed them rubbish about bullies never win, etc.
I think it's a massive lie that is told.

I'd agree, if an understandable lie to tell. Thankfully I was never a victim of it and luckily I didn't see much of it in my peers and classmates. Not the direct kind anyway, though there was some social exclusion stuff going on with a couple of the quieter lads(which can be just as harmful). That said I have known bullies in my wider circle of acquaintances and yes some were clearly damaged and did meh in life, others continued to sail through life with successful careers and families.

Collie D

[Deleted User] wrote: »

the point i was making that caused such umbrage is that self-declaration of bullying victimhood is no more reliable than any other self-anointed position

and that, as others have pointed out, all human interactions are hugely subjective.

most of the statements about bullies, bullying, the bullied in this thread seem to me to be cant, almost a positivity/reassurance repetition mantra

in work in particular the people i see "bullied" are just being asked to do something theyd rather not, its a bit of a joke tbh

You can wrap it up in all the pseudo psychology you like but you’re still talking ****e.

I know the type you’re referring to in the last paragraph but there are some genuine cases being posted here and your post just pisses all over them IMO.

Wanderer78

Wibbs wrote: »

I'd agree, if an understandable lie to tell. Thankfully I was never a victim of it and luckily I didn't see much of it in my peers and classmates. Not the direct kind anyway, though there was some social exclusion stuff going on with a couple of the quieter lads(which can be just as harmful). That said I have known bullies in my wider circle of acquaintances and yes some were clearly damaged and did meh in life, others continued to sail through life with successful careers and families.

social exclusion can be extremely painful and difficult to deal with, its damage can be lifelong, id class such deliberate behavior as bullying

davedonie

Wanderer78 wrote: »

unfortunately, some simply dont get on with their lives, the trauma can last a lifetime, causing all sorts of complex issues

I know, I was just trying to be positive. How I felt back then is still there, just saying it gets better basically.

Wibbs

Wanderer78 wrote: »

social exclusion can be extremely painful and difficult to deal with, its damage can be lifelong, id class such deliberate behavior as bullying

Oh definitely, though from what I've observed down the years it can be just as much not particularly deliberate. Some people for all sorts of reasons can just end up being largely socially ignored, particularly in adolescence. The quiet types, the more socially awkward etc. I knew one guy who was near socially invisible. He went through school like that. Even if you tried to engage with him it was awkward on both sides, so few even tried and he just faded into the background. It doesn't always require deliberate intent. Never mind that adolescents in particular have their own personal crap to be dealing with growing into the adult world.

Wanderer78

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh definitely, though from what I've observed down the years it can be just as much not particularly deliberate. Some people for all sorts of reasons can just end up being largely socially ignored, particularly in adolescence. The quiet types, the more socially awkward etc. I knew one guy who was near socially invisible. He went through school like that. Even if you tried to engage with him it was awkward on both sides, so few even tried and he just faded into the background. It doesn't always require deliberate intent. Never mind that adolescents in particular have their own personal crap to be dealing with growing into the adult world.

possibly on the spectrum, hard to know, but can be very debilitating throughout life

beauf

[Deleted User] wrote: »

the point i was making that caused such umbrage is that self-declaration of bullying victimhood is no more reliable than any other self-anointed position

and that, as others have pointed out, all human interactions are hugely subjective.

most of the statements about bullies, bullying, the bullied in this thread seem to me to be cant, almost a positivity/reassurance repetition mantra

in work in particular the people i see "bullied" are just being asked to do something theyd rather not, its a bit of a joke tbh

Sounds like you can't tell the difference between obvious bullying and someone gaming the system. There are times when it's obvious and time when it's not. But some of the examples in this thread are pretty clear cut.

Do bullies often win. A lot for sure. Lots of it in schools and they seem largely unable to deal with it. Not a simple problem for sure.

Collie D

Collie D wrote: »

You can wrap it up in all the pseudo psychology you like but you’re still talking ****e.

I know the type you’re referring to in the last paragraph but there are some genuine cases being posted here and your post just pisses all over them IMO.

bit of a ridiculous response that very much underlines the point.

the pseudo psychology in this thread is 100% on the other side, the "all bullies are x, anyone who claims/feels that they have been bullied are unquestionably correct" etc etc

i didnt even post a broad sweeping statement other than to point out that people arent reliable narrators of their own story on things like this.

most people have been bullies to some extent or another, and most have also been bullied to some extent or another.

society man, its a whirlwind out there.

beauf

beauf wrote: »

Sounds like you can't tell the difference between obvious bullying and someone gaming the system. There are times when it's obvious and time when it's not. But some of the examples in this thread are pretty clear cut.

sounds like the people to whom i refer cannot, quite obviously.

look ill bow out, didnt realise it was a thread in which we were under onus to do no more than sketch out that bullies are bad hmmkay and hiss at bullies and say that they are pyschopaths.

very valuable discussion to have obv.

WoollyRedHat

Mic 1972 wrote: »

You have a point but you need to be realistic too. Bullies always win because people let them. Dont wait for society to take care, teach your kids to defend themselves

Sorry but that line of thinking is a broken cliche driven by bull**** machoism.

beauf

You're kinda doing exactly what you're complaining others are doing.

Your point was entirely lost in how you said it.

I'm undecided if bullying in school and work are not two very different types of behaviour or is bullying the same regardless.

beauf

Sometimes they are looking for a reaction. They are baiting.

LoughNeagh2017

Here is an article that supports the idea that bullies come from all areas of society. It is all about climbing the social ladder, the idea that top sports jocks are the bullies is stuff of Hollywood fiction. There were county GAA players at my school and most didn't bully people whereas it was usually the video gamer nerds who bullied, the ones who needed to impress the girls and climb the social ladder and to hell with them, I wish them nothing but pain, I actually hope their children are born autistic or something.

http://theconversation.com/who-are-more-likely-to-be-bullies-poor-kids-or-rich-kids-27411

TheValeyard

Wanderer78 wrote: »

social exclusion can be extremely painful and difficult to deal with, its damage can be lifelong, id class such deliberate behavior as bullying

True. But you cant force people to spend time with other people they do not like. Think there's a fine line before it becomes bullying. Particularly after works drinks or something.

Wanderer78

TheValeyard wrote:

True. But you cant force people to spend time with other people they do not like. Think there's a fine line before it becomes bullying. Particularly after works drinks or something.

Absolutely, but sometimes it's the activity not the people, after work drinks is what I'd call hell

poisonated

I have mental health issues and I remember people used to think it was funny to shove a ruler up my ass. They would laugh because I was u comfortable with it. I met a couple of them recently and they had changed a lot. They were actually decent human beings. My point is that people make mistakes and sometimes change when they grow up.

tjhook

poisonated wrote: »

My point is that people make mistakes and sometimes change when they grow up.

I think this too. I remember a guy in my secondary school (a few years older than me) throwing a buddy of mine to the ground and shouting at him to "lick my shoes, ya little sh!t". This was not an isolated incident.

He's now an artist who does a lot of work nationally (perhaps internationally). I wouldn't have guessed that was in his future! I'd like to think there was something missing from his life when he was young, and that he's since found it.

gozunda

A few posters have touched on some common profiles of those who are bullied especially as kids - that they are perceived as different, as being quite or other reasons. I would add that to a person - the bullies whom I've came across in life (and tbh you can find them just about anywhere) all have had something essential missing. Psychopathy is reckoned to come in a variety of types with people from different walks in life showing evident traits and are known to lack empathy for others. Tbh I reckon bullying is a similar psychological issue. Though some people do seem to change their behaviour and grow out off bullying as they grow older - others never do and continue to target others simply because it is tolerated and behaviour not dealt with.

joseywhales

tjhook wrote: »

I think this too. I remember a guy in my secondary school (a few years older than me) throwing a buddy of mine to the ground and shouting at him to "lick my shoes, ya little sh!t". This was not an isolated incident.

He's now an artist who does a lot of work nationally (perhaps internationally). I wouldn't have guessed that was in his future! I'd like to think there was something missing from his life when he was young, and that he's since found it.

People can change I believe but there is absolutely no reason to believe that success means that they have changed. This guy might do the same thing in the same situation, when he has impunity, regardless of his success.

Heebie

Deleted User wrote:

most of the statements about bullies, bullying, the bullied in this thread seem to me to be cant, almost a positivity/reassurance repetition mantra

Ok, so how about having your lunch money and/or lunch tickets stolen from you under threat, usually preceded immediately by a punch to the side of the head?
Getting hit in the side of the head with an aluminum baseball bat?
Having a baseball pitched into your eye, causing it to be black & blue for weeks? (Not talking about during a baseball game)
Being forced to lick dirt on the playground?
Being held down while other boys spat in my hair and rubbed dirt into my hair?
Being forced under threat to "do the dying cockroach"? (Lying on the ground, wiggling your arms and legs in the air, and repeating "eek eek I'm a dying cockroach" until the bully list interest)
Having school books robbed from on your person?
Having all the contents of your pockets robbed from on your person?
Being pushed in front of moving cars?
Being beaten by groups of older boys simply because you tried walking to the shop?

Do these qualify as actual bullying even though I'm "self-reporting' ?

These are a very small fraction of the things that happened to me as a school child.

tjhook

joseywhales wrote: »

People can change I believe but there is absolutely no reason to believe that success means that they have changed. This guy might do the same thing in the same situation, when he has impunity, regardless of his success.

Yes, that's very true. But it's not the success in itself that gave me pause to think. It was the creativity and sensitivity that he appears capable of putting into his art.


But yeah, I haven't seen him since he was a teenager , so he could still be a complete pr!ck.

Graces7

I was bullied at school. One day a group of " big girls" pushed me into the toilet block and pushed half a dead wasp down my neck. I was terrified of wasps and screamed blue murder.. was beside myself with sheer terror.. so much so that they got scared and ran for the teacher.

Bullies are cowards. Bullying is the only way they can get anywhere. If you front them?

Anyone who has ever known me knows I will not tolerate bullying, My tactic now I am too old to fight is SILENCE./AVOIDANCE.

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Got bullied myself because I was smaller than the rest at the time and quiet as well, group of them gave me a bit of a kicking in the toilets and I told my folks who in turn told the teachers.

The teacher gave them a bollocking and I was seen as a grass and it solved nothing, the only thing I learned was to keep my mouth shut and I stuck it out until I grew up as big as them and then it stopped when I could fight back.

joe40

There are the clear cut cases of bullying that are easy to see and impossible to deny. In some cases, especially with adults, the bullying is less clear cut maybe even to the perpetrator.
How many people just see themselves as been efficient managers getting the most out of their staff certainly not bullying anyone.
How many times is someone just "having a laugh" not bullying, definitely not bullying.

Then maybe there is the converse, maybe someone in a workplace deserves a reprimand of some sort but calls it bullying.

Bullying is awful and never justified, it does untold harm, both physically and psychologically.
Sometimes the term can be misused, which is an insult to real victims

nthclare

At the end of the day its all about one's cognitive ability on how to read a situation.
Its nobody's fault if they're over sensitive and unable to stand up to the bully.
Because there's all different personalities out there.

I have my own way of dealing with awkward people, I either laugh and turn it around.

As Billy Cogan wrote, disarm you with a smile...

Fortunately some people are quite sharp, confident and witty.
The bullies don't dare try it on with emotionally strong people or witty people.

Because bullies are usually as thick as marine plywood.

When you turn it around on the bully watch the circus, they'll turn into a mouse

t3tac

Bullies only thrive when the people around them tolerate them.
If the whole class or a few of the people in the area tell the bully to cop[themselves on that their behaviour is unacceptable it will usually embarrass the bully enough to end it.

I was bullied relentlessly as a kid I was small had glasses and a birth defect but I learned head on violence is the only answer.
reporting is a complete waste of time.

But then I found when you stood up to them they backed off later in secondary school I sorted a couple of bullies for other lads as well.

Some did well in life (bullies) some did not.

What I cannot understand today is online bullies why are they not called out on social media

If society tolerates bullies they will thrive it is the responsibility of every single person child or adult to let it be known that this behaviour will never be tolerated

We cannot look the other way

Tell me how

t3tac wrote: »

Bullies only thrive when the people around them tolerate them.
If the whole class or a few of the people in the area tell the bully to cop[themselves on that their behaviour is unacceptable it will usually embarrass the bully enough to end it.

I was bullied relentlessly as a kid I was small had glasses and a birth defect but I learned head on violence is the only answer.
reporting is a complete waste of time.

But then I found when you stood up to them they backed off later in secondary school I sorted a couple of bullies for other lads as well.

Some did well in life (bullies) some did not.

What I cannot understand today is online bullies why are they not called out on social media

If society tolerates bullies they will thrive it is the responsibility of every single person child or adult to let it be known that this behaviour will never be tolerated

We cannot look the other way

Anonymity is pretty close to a massive part of the reason for this I suspect.