Jessica Yaniv refused service at gynaecologist's office

AndrewJRenko

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Mitch Conner spent a few pages having a go at everyone because he thought we were a bunch of transphobes. I think he finally did some research because he stopped posting.

That's not the question I asked. Can you please point to any specific post where anyone defended Yaniv.

AndrewJRenko

Gynoid wrote: »

As himself oftens says to me "Do you never tire of being wrong?"
Earlier a poster doubted the fact that a male bodied prisoner was housed at Dochas because it was only reported in the "red tops". In spite of the absence of widespread reporting, a male bodied prisoner was housed at Dochas, and has since been moved to the female wing of Limerick prison. They are a child rapist.
I can link via Women Are Human. But then people might look there and see the accumulated evidence of "that never happens" incidences.

Please provide a link to a reputable source for this claim.

Gynoid

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Please provide a link to a reputable source for this claim.

Please prove it is not true. It is widely reported and Charlie Flanagan spoke on it.

“The Irish Prison Service must accept all prisoners into custody, into whatever prison that a judge orders,” Minister Charlie Flanagan said in response to a parliamentary question from Aontú TD Peadar Tóibín, on 12 September.

Whoa, hang on, it's my lucky day The law society gazette any good to ya...

https://www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/top-stories/male-bodied-transgender-inmate-housed-with-women-prisoners/

Gynoid

And since you irked me - on a sacrosanct lazy time-off Saturday morning, Andrew! - by not believing me, I'm gonna go the whole hog....

Read on about how this sh1t never happens.
https://www.womenarehuman.com/

Gynoid

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/12/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkable-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists/

earlier linky linkified...for easier easierness

Brian?

Dante7 wrote: »

Trans women commit sexual offences at the same rates, or higher, as males. If you accept that males pose a threat to females, then you have to accept that trans women pose the same threat to females. That's before we get into the fact that predatory males can also abuse self id to gain access to females.

Trans women commit sexual offences at much lower rates than men. Where did you get your information from?

Gynoid

Brian? wrote: »

Trans women commit sexual offences at much lower rates than men. Where did you get your information from?

Where did you get your information from?

Sir Oxman

Gynoid wrote: »

Please prove it is not true. It is widely reported and Charlie Flanagan spoke on it.



Whoa, hang on, it's my lucky day The law society gazette any good to ya...

https://www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/top-stories/male-bodied-transgender-inmate-housed-with-women-prisoners/

Do you know what, I can't believe anyone could not search for that with approximately three words, but there ya go.


The Dentons document linked earlier crucially shows how Ireland is now used as an example in how a small group of lobbyists in one or two organisations behind closed doors can capture the social policy makers without due regard to any possible effects on other groups in society.



The aftermath of the Marriage Referendum was used quite slyly to enable legislation with practically zero public debate (as described in the document) with of course every politician in the country riding on the coat-tails of worldwide applause.
Done and dusted within 5 months of the referendum - amazing speed.



'No policy made in the shadows can survive in sunlight'

How true.

Gynoid

Sir Oxman wrote: »

Do you know what, I can't believe anyone could not search for that with approximately three words, but there ya go.


The Dentons document linked earlier crucially shows how Ireland is now used as an example in how a small group of lobbyists in one or two organisations behind closed doors can capture the social policy makers without due regard to any possible effects on other groups in society.



The aftermath of the Marriage Referendum was used quite slyly to enable legislation with practically zero public debate (as described in the document) with of course every politician in the country riding on the coat-tails of worldwide applause.
Done and dusted within 5 months of the referendum - amazing speed.



'No policy made in the shadows can survive in sunlight'

How true.

The Denton document should be given close attention by anyone remotely interested in democracy -
https://www.iglyo.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/IGLYO_v3-1.pdf

(skip to page 18 - 21 if you are short on time)

Brian?

Gynoid wrote: »

Where did you get your information from?

I didn't. That was my point, I was using sarcasm to make a point.

Gynoid

Brian? wrote: »

I didn't. That was my point, I was using sarcasm to make a point.

Okay. I accept, apologies for misunderstanding. Although when I read back I still don't get your point. I agree with the poster to whom you are responding.
Self ID Trans people still commit crime or like cheese in the same statistical patterns they did when they identified with their biological sex. That is logical. It is not the same as saying women never rape because they certainly do or at least they facilitate rape by providing victims - a much under-recognised problem. But regardless the stats are strong on more male rapists than female. Tis just a fact.
People who have undergone surgery may not offend at similar rates because they have had their penis removed which hinders rape, or if they retain the penis but have had cross sex hormones they often have been rendered functionally impotent so that may affect patterns.

The chan chan man

Gynaecologists specialise in the female reproductive system.

Tranny’s don’t have that.

silverharp

its a bit like Oscar Pistorius wanting to see a podiatrist

Gynoid

Oh God :rolleyes: Yaniv is not the point. Yaniv may even be a tool to help those more subversive to draw the impotent ire of the ''transphobes''. Not to mention the smug self righteousness of the ideological allies, who can wag their fingers and say look at all the nasty people.
Yaniv is a ludicrous caricature.
But what Yaniv does do is point out the logical inconsistencies of an unreasonable ideology when it is extended to its ultimate conclusion. Which is the only damn interesting thing about the hideous old pervert.

AndrewJRenko

Gynoid wrote: »

And since you irked me - on a sacrosanct lazy time-off Saturday morning, Andrew! - by not believing me, I'm gonna go the whole hog....

Read on about how this sh1t never happens.
https://www.womenarehuman.com/

You saw the bit where I asked about "in Ireland" right?

Gynoid

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

You saw the bit where I asked about "in Ireland" right?

You must be an Olympic champion at leap frog

''Andrew races out and blithely leapfrogs the link to the IRISH law society Gazette in an attempt to pursue his point ...''

:rolleyes: There are not enough roll eyes for that effort.

Gynoid

And from now on Andrew I shall expect you to limit your public discourse to events and activities which transpire ONLY within the boundaries of this very small island and within its population of 5 million or so souls. I shall not listen to a word you say on Climate Change or international affairs and global politics that pertains to anywhere outside that limited field ...oh have a few more roll eyes... :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

AndrewJRenko

Gynoid wrote: »

You must be an Olympic champion at leap frog

''Andrew races out and blithely leapfrogs the link to the IRISH law society Gazette in an attempt to pursue his point ...''

:rolleyes: There are not enough roll eyes for that effort.

Gynoid wrote: »

And from now on Andrew I shall expect you to limit your public discourse to events and activities which transpire ONLY within the boundaries of this very small island and within its population of 5 million or so souls. I shall not listen to a word you say on Climate Change or international affairs and global politics that pertains to anywhere outside that limited field ...oh have a few more roll eyes... :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

So just to be clear, the website that you quoted earlier which you've been relying on to rile yourself up on this important topic (while you ignore the actual violence being carried out against women by men every day) has nothing to do with Ireland, and no cases of violence by transgender people against women in Ireland?


Thanks for that clarification.




You might want to try TheLiberal website too - that's great at dragging up obscure cases from other countries to incite hatred against vulnerable groups.

Mules

Ironicname wrote: »

What I love most are the posts saying that they would totally consider that trans racialism may be a thing in the future but at the moment they will just accept the law.

Ok....

It really is like Monty Python come to life.

Gynoid

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So just to be clear, the website that you quoted earlier which you've been relying on to rile yourself up on this important topic (while you ignore the actual violence being carried out against women by men every day) has nothing to do with Ireland, and no cases of violence by transgender people against women in Ireland?


Thanks for that clarification.




You might want to try TheLiberal website too - that's great at dragging up obscure cases from other countries to incite hatred against vulnerable groups.

You must not have read through Women are Human - it has Irish cases. It has also plenty of UK cases, are they too far away?
Here's one - https://www.womenarehuman.com/repeat-sexual-offender-arrested-for-dressing-like-woman-to-sneak-into-school-geoffrey-kelley/

The Law Society Gazette reports on a child rapist recently housed with women and their children in the Dochas centre in Ireland. And now under constant care when out and about of 2 prison service officers in the female wing of Limerick prison.

I have never seen the Liberal website. Sorry about that. But sure, enjoy it yourself, feel free.

AndrewJRenko

Deleted User wrote: »

The logic being that these 'trans women' still have male bits, then they're still male, and therefore just as much risk as any other male. Even without the male bits, they still have the bone density and other factors to make them considerably stronger than females. It's also worth considering the drugs, other procedures, and adapting to a new position within society, would affect them emotionally beyond what males/females have to experience.

However, I'm curious. At what stage do we accept that women will be killed by men, and men will be killed by women? What's the acceptable number? Or do we ignore all other risks until either gender is no longer killing the other? That's hardly realistic or practical.

At what stage do we accept that women ARE actually being killed by men on a regular basis. Do you think that maybe we should be focus on that very real issue rather than worrying about theoretical possibilities.

Gynoid wrote: »

Please prove it is not true. It is widely reported and Charlie Flanagan spoke on it.

Whoa, hang on, it's my lucky day The law society gazette any good to ya...

https://www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/top-stories/male-bodied-transgender-inmate-housed-with-women-prisoners/

Thanks for this. I hadn't come across this case.


Were many female prisoners killed or injured in this terrible atrocity?

Gynoid

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

At what stage do we accept that women ARE actually being killed by men on a regular basis. Do you think that maybe we should be focus on that very real issue rather than worrying about theoretical possibilities.





Thanks for this. I hadn't come across this case.


Were many female prisoners killed or injured in this terrible atrocity.

Added to your leap frogging skills are mastery of deflection and whataboutery.
If one is speaking of violence rates among trans women - which people can read about at Women Are Human site as it aggregates news reports there - why are you bringing up the women killed by men which posters are supposedly ignoring? It is a different topic completely. People are not ignoring it.

Women have been raped in other jurisdictions including the Uk by transwomen prisoners in female prisons.
Believe it or not our courts have used UK legal precedent in their judgements since their inception under Irish independence. It is because we are linked, historically, by law, by culture, by geography. There is no reason not to use sociological and criminological statistics and precedence from other jurisdictions, especially those linked by Common Law, and especially those with larger population bases that our own. Your argument about other countries is a non starter.

Sir Oxman

Gynoid wrote: »

You must be an Olympic champion at leap frog

''Andrew races out and blithely leapfrogs the link to the IRISH law society Gazette in an attempt to pursue his point ...''

:rolleyes: There are not enough roll eyes for that effort.

Well known for it.

ceadaoin.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

At what stage do we accept that women ARE actually being killed by men on a regular basis. Do you think that maybe we should be focus on that very real issue rather than worrying about theoretical possibilities.





Thanks for this. I hadn't come across this case.


Were many female prisoners killed or injured in this terrible atrocity?

The facts are that women have been raped in prison by male rapists who identify as female, and have been impregnated by them in some cases and in more than
one country. Males who have raped and killed babies are housed in prisons with mother and child units in Canada.. None of that is theoretical.

But sure be grand, nothing to see here etc etc. Is that right?

Brian?

Ironicname wrote: »

What I love most are the posts saying that they would totally consider that trans racialism may be a thing in the future but at the moment they will just accept the law.

Ok....

Jesus this is hard work. I assume this is aimed at me. I said that trans racialism may be a thing in the future, but I can’t be bothered worrying about it.

Why would I worry about it? How would it affect me in any way, shape or form?

AndrewJRenko

ceadaoin. wrote: »

The facts are that women have been raped in prison by male rapists who identify as female, and have been impregnated by them in some cases and in more than
one country. Males who have raped and killed babies are housed in prisons with mother and child units in Canada.. None of that is theoretical.

But sure be grand, nothing to see here etc etc. Is that right?

The facts are that women are being beaten, raped and killed right here in Ireland with alarming regularity, not in prisons or female toilets or changing rooms - but in their homes, their workplaces and other regular places.


I know it's much more fun to get riled with little stories about men who wear panties, but it's hard to take the concerns for the safety of women too seriously given the propensity to ignore the reality of violence against women in Ireland.

Gynoid

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The facts are that women are being beaten, raped and killed right here in Ireland with alarming regularity, not in prisons or female toilets or changing rooms - but in their homes, their workplaces and other regular places.


I know it's much more fun to get riled with little stories about men who wear panties, but it's hard to take the concerns for the safety of women too seriously given the propensity to ignore the reality of violence against women in Ireland.

The conversation is not about that.

If you dont want reports of happenings from outside Ireland that are relevant to us here then Im afraid you are going to have to sit down while I tell you all about the EU Parliament and the European Court of Justice!

iguana

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I know it's much more fun to get riled with little stories about men who wear panties, but it's hard to take the concerns for the safety of women too seriously given the propensity to ignore the reality of violence against women in Ireland.

Who the fućk ignores that? It's actually possible to care about more than one thing at once. It's also possible to see an issue as complex, multi-layered, multi-faceted and interconnected? Male violence is a serious issue for women and the reason that many women are concerned about the opening up of safer spaces is because we are absolutely well aware of male violence against women. Many of us have in fact experienced it and don't want to be ever more fearful of experiencing it in spaces that were created to give us a greater degree of safety.

The fact is this is an incredibly, incredibly complex issue. Transpeople also deserve safety and spaces for transpeople need to be created. I don't particularly think that a male prison would be a safe space for a transwoman. But it's also obvious that women imprisoned with a transwoman with a history of violent crimes are being put at greater risk. Male toilets won't always be safe for transwomen and women won't always be safe with self-ID'd men in women's toilets. No clear way forward, that puts everyone's safety first, will ever be found if we pretend that neither of those facts are true. Both sides have genuine issues and the way forward is to acknowledge all concerns and find a solution that doesn't involve telling women to budge up. Again.

One eyed Jack

ingalway wrote: »

But the problem is with self ID how do we know who is a genuine trans person and who is just some chancer, or worse, using such a soft system that is so easy to game to access spaces with women and girls who might be in changing facilities undressed, using toilets, in female only hospital wards, female prisons.
Of course I know there any many trans people who are absolutely fine and honourable people and I genuinely feel sorry that they are caught up in this but the fact cannot be ignored that some awful people have and will abuse this and women will end up physically and sexually abused. It should not be some social experiment to see how far it goes.

The simple answer to your question is we don’t know, we don’t know who is genuine and who is a chancer and it’s not the purpose of the gender recognition act to determine who is genuine and who is a chancer. It’s purpose is simply to recognise a persons preferred gender in law. People who are of a mindset to abuse our current systems have been doing so long before the gender recognition act was ever a thing, and on balance, the gender recognition act is of benefit to those people who avail of it for it’s intended purpose. Here’s the annual report for 2018 which shows that a total number of 422 people have been granted a gender recognition certificate since 2015 by the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection. We’re not talking huge numbers here, and as for how many of those people used their legal recognition as their preferred gender to gain access to services they would previously have been unable to avail of, I couldn’t possibly tell you -


Gender Recognition Act 2015 Annual Report 2018


I don’t imagine anyone is ignoring the fact that there are some people who will abuse this, but there are ways to deal with the awful people who abuse it, without denying people who haven’t abused it from being recognised in law as their preferred gender. Unfortunately it is a social experiment in the same way as anything else is a social experiment. I was surprised myself the last time I was admitted to hospital that I was put on a mixed public ward where there were both men and women as I thought that didn’t happen, but there we were, and there was no mention of anyone preferring to identify themselves as either one sex or the other. We’ve also moved towards mixed sex schools, something which I don’t support and I’m glad there are schools which exist which cater for my personal preferences for my child’s education, in spite of some people bleating on about how mixed sex schools “prepare children for the real world”. I think mixed sex schools are a social experiment, as are single sex schools. I just happen to prefer one over the other in terms of how I wish for my child to be educated.

It’s like what I said previously - human rights laws are not absolute, and by your own standards, anything could come under the banner of a social experiment. In this particular case I totally get it from your perspective that you feel women’s rights are being eroded by men in dresses (not your exact words, but I get the sentiment), but women’s rights were never absolute in the first place, nor were men’s rights or children’s rights.

As society progresses, they are all subject to change, and it’s only natural that you are inclined to focus on how those changes will affect you, but if we were to go with your idea that rights aren’t about feelings, then we would have to ignore your feelings too, and I don’t think that’s right and would never support it. I also don’t think we can afford to ignore the fact that there has been an increase of 4,000% in the UK of young girls identifying themselves as transgender since 2011. There have been a couple of different theories put forward for this, but the one that for me seems to have more credibility than others is the one that makes me the most uncomfortable, frankly -


Autistic Girls - Gender’s silent frontier


But I can understand that women’s prisons and bathrooms capture the public imagination because of the sexual element, than the rise in the number of young girls identifying themselves as transgender, fcukall way of sexing up that reality to make it in any way interesting. As social experiments go though, that ones a doozy.

ingalway wrote: »

If someone is genuinely trans then make the meaningful medical transition, if you are not prepared to do that then you should not expect full entitlement to women's single sex spaces.

As an unfortunate number of people are now discovering having undergone medical transition, it means fcukall. I wouldn’t support the idea of people being forced to undergo any form of medical treatment under duress anyway but I don’t imagine that’s likely to be written into law any time soon anyway (Where are you posting from, Iran?), not to mention the fact that people who are of a mind to commit abuse against other people don’t care much for whether or not they have women’s permission to be in their single sex spaces.

suicide_circus

In theory, is there any reason why self ID laws could not come in for other types of dysphoria?