Interesting Maps

upupup

"To hell or to Connacht"
Cromwells plan for Ireland.


One mile deep belt around the coast reserved for english settlers.

breezy1985

upupup wrote: »

One mile deep belt around the coast reserved for English settlers.

I have heard that this is why for an island nation we have so little fish in or diet or traditional recipes

breezy1985

breezy1985 wrote: »

I have heard that this is why for an island nation we have so little fish in or diet or traditional recipes

But it didn't happen. Very few people were ever transplanted, and the plantations failed, except in Ulster.

Most people in Ireland were never intended to be transplanted, only very wealthy (mostly combatant) landowners and other soldiers, and probably Roman Catholic priests.

Under Cromwell's plans, most of the natives were intended to remain in situ as tenant farmers and workers.

I'm afraid a lot of primary school teachers have allowed their imagination to run away with themselves. Nobody ever said "To Hell or to Connacht" either.

Cromwell was a very bad man, but he didn't go around killing unarmed native civilians, let alone transplanting innocent people or hiding our fish recipes. The real truth about Cromwell is sufficiently bad. No need to embroider whatever blood he spilled!

breezy1985

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

But it didn't happen. Very few people were ever transplanted, and the plantations failed, except in Ulster.

Most people in Ireland were never intended to be transplanted, only very wealthy (mostly combatant) landowners and other soldiers, and probably Roman Catholic priests.

Under Cromwell's plans, most of the natives were intended to remain in situ as tenant farmers and workers.

I'm afraid a lot of primary school teachers have allowed their imagination to run away with themselves. Nobody ever said "To Hell or to Connacht" either.

Cromwell was a very bad man, but he didn't go around killing unarmed native civilians, let alone transplanting innocent people or hiding our fish recipes. The real truth about Cromwell is sufficiently bad. No need to embroider whatever blood he spilled!

Except for the ones he sent off to Jamaica and Barbados including women and children.


The Irish confederacy should have backed him though instead of switching sides

stopthevoting

upupup wrote: »

"To hell or to Connacht"
Cromwells plan for Ireland.
...
One mile deep belt around the coast reserved for english settlers.

I just noticed from the second map that County Galway has 3 baronies with the same names as other counties; Clare, Leitrim and Longford.

fergiesfolly

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

But it didn't happen. Very few people were ever transplanted, and the plantations failed, except in Ulster.

Most people in Ireland were never intended to be transplanted, only very wealthy (mostly combatant) landowners and other soldiers, and probably Roman Catholic priests.

Under Cromwell's plans, most of the natives were intended to remain in situ as tenant farmers and workers.

I'm afraid a lot of primary school teachers have allowed their imagination to run away with themselves. Nobody ever said "To Hell or to Connacht" either.

Cromwell was a very bad man, but he didn't go around killing unarmed native civilians, let alone transplanting innocent people or hiding our fish recipes. The real truth about Cromwell is sufficiently bad. No need to embroider whatever blood he spilled!

So, is the map fake or taken out of context. Who drew it up?

1huge1

breezy1985 wrote: »

I have heard that this is why for an island nation we have so little fish in or diet or traditional recipes

I listened to a podcast from David Mcwilliams recently who talked about just that.

The main reason why Ireland isn't a country that eats a significant amount of fish despite us being an island has more to do with the quality of our arable land being of such a level that livestock and crops were a more suitable option to feed the country.

On the other hand, the likes of Sweden which also has a massive coastline but much less arable land had to focus on fishing considerably more. This is one of the reasons why Irish people are much more likely to get a sunburn than Swedish people even though our skintype looks similar at first glance. Something to do with a diet of fish giving them a more natural protection over the generations. A similar reason to Ireland having a igher proportion of red haired people too.

Now this has happened over many 1000s of years, not just in the past 500.

I found this interesting as I too had fallen into the trap of assuming it was just down to the British exporting our fish back to Britain.

yagan

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

But it didn't happen. Very few people were ever transplanted, and the plantations failed, except in Ulster.

Most people in Ireland were never intended to be transplanted, only very wealthy (mostly combatant) landowners and other soldiers, and probably Roman Catholic priests.

Under Cromwell's plans, most of the natives were intended to remain in situ as tenant farmers and workers.

I'm afraid a lot of primary school teachers have allowed their imagination to run away with themselves. Nobody ever said "To Hell or to Connacht" either.

Cromwell was a very bad man, but he didn't go around killing unarmed native civilians, let alone transplanting innocent people or hiding our fish recipes. The real truth about Cromwell is sufficiently bad. No need to embroider whatever blood he spilled!

While it is true that the main targets of the transplantations were the catholic landowners of the confederacy and others how had supported redress to poynings law, the simple fact is that that period was a huge disruptor of native tenure which led to persistent starvations culminating in the greater hunger of the 1840s.

Cromwell did instigate a slash and burn campaign as he went to deny all Irish habitants of food, his own campaign being supported by grain from England and confiscated cattle as they marched. One estimate I read in Lecky's histories based upon letters of the period from Dublin castle estimated that in the decade of direct commonwealth rule three quarters of all cattle were consumed by upheavals and there were many instances of mass starvations of those ruled.

Edit to add, the Cromwellian term for their slash and burn campaign was "Denial", as in denying the native of their sustenance. It is thought that is was then that the potato became integral as a food source as it survived in the ground after the crop burnings.

Mimon

breezy1985 wrote: »

I have heard that this is why for an island nation we have so little fish in or diet or traditional recipes

Nah, it goes back way further. We are mostly descended from pastoralists from the Russian Steppe so they brought no tradition of eating seafood. On the other hand these people left us with the highest level of adult lactose tolerance in the World.

Balmed Out

yagan wrote: »

Cromwell did instigate a slash and burn campaign as he went to deny all Irish habitants of food

As cruel and terrible as that was it was typical of the time. It had already happened in Ireland during the desmond and ulster rebellions. Proportionally more of munster died in the famines related to the desmond rebellions than the great hunger of the 1840s.

humberklog

Refreshing not to see the "fish for Friday/penury food" nonsense being wheeled out.

I was listening to a really interesting podcast about Pre- Christian Norwegians out in Iceland, Greenland and most likely North America.
The ones on Greenland were having Mickey-fits because they were sending the furs back but good meat wasn't being sent to them in the promised supplies and were bemoaning to having to eat fish like the "Skraelings" (the locals).

fergiesfolly

fergiesfolly wrote: »

So, is the map fake or taken out of context. Who drew it up?

The map is legit, but it didn't happen. And it's more complex than it looks. The minority of landowners who were to be transplanted were themselves intended to retain a significant status, displacing local landowners. They were intended to become planters.

It gets even more complex still:some Connacht landowners who lost (or forfeited) their lands to irish newcomers were transplanted within Connacht, and they also became 'planters'. These transplantees were in many ways quite lucky: some people who were never sent to Connacht, but remained in Leinster and Munster, became destitute. In any case, we are talking about very small numbers of transplants.

The map is very interesting but it's a sort of counter-factual history, i.e. it allows us a glimpse of what was intended, and it's interesting to imagine what might have happened thereafter — probably including battles in Connacht between native Irish.

yagan

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

The map is legit, but it didn't happen. And it's more complex than it looks. The minority of landowners who were to be transplanted were themselves intended to retain a significant status, displacing local landowners. They were intended to become planters.

It gets even more complex still:some Connacht landowners who lost (or forfeited) their lands to irish newcomers were transplanted within Connacht, and they also became 'planters'. These transplantees were in many ways quite lucky: some people who were never sent to Connacht, but remained in Leinster and Munster, became destitute. In any case, we are talking about very small numbers of transplants.

The map is very interesting but it's a sort of counter-factual history, i.e. it allows us a glimpse of what was intended, and it's interesting to imagine what might have happened thereafter — probably including battles in Connacht between native Irish.

By stating it never happened sets you up as a denialist of the cromwellian confiscations. This is for another thread.

Perhaps it would be more accruate to say that transplantation did happen, as can be even seen from surnames like Minogue that were mostly in Kilkenny suddenly cluster in north Clare in the latter part of the 1600s.

Cromwellians did oust many landowners, but in time many sold off the land grants they'd gained under the adventurers act.

Anyway despite your assertion plantations did happen.

yagan

yagan wrote: »

Anyway despite your assertion plantations did happen.

plantations and transplantation are two different policies.

Plantations happened, and failed, except for limited success in Ulster.
Transplantation, as stated previously, was only attempted in very small numbers. It isn't of much historical significance.

Nqp15hhu

The plantation was very successful in Ulster. I speak as someone who has remnants of it in my dna, almost 40% Scottish.

BonnieSituation

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

The plantation was very successful in Ulster. I speak as someone who has remnants of it in my dna, almost 40% Scottish.

That would make you 60% Irish?

---

For a moment there I wasn't clear on whether the Plantation of Ulster was successful or not. Thanks for clearing that up.

Nqp15hhu

Well if it was unsuccessful few people would have Scottish Dna in Ulster. I have numerous matches who are 70%+ Scottish.

BonnieSituation

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

Well if it was unsuccessful few people would have Scottish Dna in Ulster. I have numerous matches who are 70%+ Scottish.

I don't think you got the point. Anyway, the Dal Riada called!

Nqp15hhu

No..my y Dna is from the borders as is most of the Scottish Dna. So don’t try to dispute my ethnic make up.

Nqp15hhu

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

No..my y Dna is from the border as is most of the Dna. So don’t try to dispute my ethnic make up.

That's some accurate profiling right there. Worth the money I'd say.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades!

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

plantations and transplantation are two different policies.

Plantations happened, and failed, except for limited success in Ulster.
Transplantation, as stated previously, was only attempted in very small numbers. It isn't of much historical significance.

The deliberate destruction of an elite is always of importance.

yagan

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

plantations and transplantation are two different policies.

Plantations happened, and failed, except for limited success in Ulster.
Transplantation, as stated previously, was only attempted in very small numbers. It isn't of much historical significance.

It was hugely significant in land rights in the 17th century.

Again for another forum, but to assert that the Cromwellian confiscations were insignificant shows you've only a superficial understanding of the subject.

BonnieSituation

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

No..my y Dna is from the borders as is most of the Scottish Dna. So don’t try to dispute my ethnic make up.

I'm disputing your ability to get a snide comment that was made at your expense.

Deleted User wrote: »

That's some accurate profiling right there. Worth the money I'd say.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

yagan

yagan wrote: »

Again for another forum, but to assert that the Cromwellian confiscations were insignificant shows you've only a superficial understanding of the subject.

Again — transplantation, which is what the map is about, wasn't historically significant. Not to be confused with confiscation/plantation, which was very significant.

Leaving it at that, ran out of ways to clarify the same thing.

josip

Going a bit further north than NI or Scotland, what kind of projection does Google Maps use?
Svalbaard looks disproportionately large compared to Scandi.

Doing some very rough measurements in Google Earth, the archipelago measures 485km across,


slightly shorter than the 500km from the Norwegian-Finnish coastal border to an arbitrary point in Russia.


But things change a lot on Google Maps, the Svalbard looks 50% bigger.
In this pic, the 2 blue lines are the same length.

BonnieSituation

It uses a variant on Mercator called Web Mercator/Spherical Mercator.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Mercator_projection

mzungu

A Gallup poll found that The Philippines is the world’s most emotional country. Singapore is its least.

KevRossi

Italy is less emotional than Switzerland?

josip

KevRossi wrote: »

Italy is less emotional than Switzerland?

Gallup

Gallup, Inc. is an American analytics and advisory company...

Fake Scores

KevRossi wrote: »

Italy is less emotional than Switzerland?

Self reporting