Peter McVerry Trust staff and wages

weldoninhio

corner of hells wrote: »

I don't need to offer a solution.
I'm content with what I do .

Happy to take the money and make no difference. :rolleyes: Sums up the "charity" business.

Plumbthedepths

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Why has anyone here identified themselves as an employee or a volunteer of the PMVT ? Personally I think you want to keep the 'outrage' trundling along. Sad really.

Never suggested that they were. Just got the impression that some might have a rough idea.

Plumbthedepths

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Never suggested that they were. Just got the impression that some might have a rough idea.

Again if you genuinely are interested in the figures( which I doubt) contact the Trust and post the figures here for anyone else that maybe curious. Think of it as a matter of civic responsibility on your part.

Plumbthedepths

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Religious groups operate as charity's, so which religions would you deem unworthy of a license if only two are available?

is this a trick question?

no religious group should have charity status.

weldoninhio

Itzayana Fast Tablet wrote: »

people who make a businees and career out of it are lower

Exactly. "Look, these people are on the bones of their arse, I could make money out of this."

Plumbthedepths

[Deleted User] wrote: »

is this a trick question?

no religious group should have charity status.

It's not a trick question the person who replied stated there should be two licenses per category. Religious groups such as the RCC, Church of Ireland etc have charity status, whether they should have or not is irrelevant to what I asked.

Plumbthedepths

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

It's not a trick question the person who replied stated there should be two licenses per category. Religious groups such as the RCC, Church of Ireland etc have charity status, whether they should have or not is irrelevant to what I asked.

completely relevant.

the answer to your question is "all of them are unworthy of charitable status" and tbh without being too chiding id have thought that very apparent.

Plumbthedepths

[Deleted User] wrote: »

completely relevant.

the answer to your question is "all of them are unworthy of charitable status" and tbh without being too chiding id have thought that very apparent.

Its not relevant, as an aside the question wasn't addressed to you it was in response to a specific response from another poster. Your reply is on a different tangent I have zero interest in discussing.

Plumbthedepths

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Again if you genuinely are interested in the figures( which I doubt) contact the Trust and post the figures here for anyone else that maybe curious. Think of it as a matter of civic responsibility on your part.

Just in case you or other posters are interested, approximately 5,800 individuals accessed their services in 2018. Not an over heavy workload for their well paid employees.

Earthhorse

Deleted User wrote: »

Just in case you or other posters are interested, approximately 5,800 individuals accessed their services in 2018. Not an over heavy workload for their well paid employees.

The number of individuals who accessed their services only tells you a part of the story of the workload though. How long were they using these services for? What kind and variety of services did they need? These kinds of analysis are overly simplistic.

Plumbthedepths

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Just in case you or other posters are interested, approximately 5,800 individuals accessed their services in 2018. Not an over heavy workload for their well paid employees.

Not interested as I'm not petty enough to wish to deny help to people that need it, Although I doubt all the Trust's employees are frontline but you probably know that aswell. Also I don't consider an average wage of 37k well paid.

weldoninhio

LirW wrote: »

But do they have the infrastructure close that chronic homeless need, like hospitals, state treatment facilities and several other necessary amenities?
It's a pretty bad idea moving people in need to depriving communities that often already unsuccessfully deal with social issues due to the lack of infrastructure.

At the start of the year we had a criminal addict moved into a flat on our road, 30 meters down from my house. She has several convictions and isn't capable of looking after herself. A local counsellor thought it's a great idea. Our village is so small, we have one shop, no school, not even a church. She didn't drive and the closest town is 25 minutes away, the closest hospital 55km. No public transport.
She abandoned the unit shortly afterwards because she was left on her own in a remote council flat with no access to anything.
Please tell me how this is a good idea.

Aww the poor cratur getting a free ride on the taxpayers buck. Meanwhile people are travelling from Monaghan/Carlow etc to get to work in Dublin.

Plumbthedepths

weldoninhio wrote: »

Aww the poor cratur getting a free ride on the taxpayers buck. Meanwhile people are travelling from Monaghan/Carlow etc to get to work in Dublin.

You seem to be raising the bar on how idiotic a response you can post each time.

Earthhorse

weldoninhio wrote: »

Aww the poor cratur getting a free ride on the taxpayers buck. Meanwhile people are travelling from Monaghan/Carlow etc to get to work in Dublin.

Not the point. It was a waste of time to even give her this "free ride". Which is why proper facilities need to be available.

weldoninhio

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Do you really think that's going to happen?

Hell no, the leeches aren't gonna give up the gravy train.

weldoninhio

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Religious groups operate as charity's, so which religions would you deem unworthy of a license if only two are available?

Leave the religious groups as they are, just have 2 business charity licenses.

weldoninhio

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

So you are accusing the people running the charities of theft/misappropriation?

Where did I mention theft??? I can post myself, I don't need you putting words into my mouth.

weldoninhio

salmocab wrote: »

But what’s reaching the source? If someone with mental health issues sees a paid healthcare worker then does that count as reaching the source?

How many mental health charities are there?? Have the homeless sector liaise with the MH sector.

Plumbthedepths

weldoninhio wrote: »

Leave the religious groups as they are, just have 2 business charity licenses.

Won't work then as you created a situation for multiple legal challenges. Btw 'business charity' is an oxymoron. I guess you knew that. Your motives here and posting style is fairly transparent so I'll leave you too it. Maybe someone else will take the bait now.

salmocab

weldoninhio wrote: »

How many mental health charities are there?? Have the homeless sector liaise with the MH sector.

That’s not an answer to the question I asked.

weldoninhio

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Won't work then as you created a situation for multiple legal challenges. Btw 'business charity' is an oxymoron. I guess you knew that. Your motives here and posting style is fairly transparent so I'll leave you too it. Maybe someone else will take the bait now.

It may be an oxymoron, but it is true. PMVT, Focus etc are all big businesses using charity in their name.

blanch152

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Again if you genuinely are interested in the figures( which I doubt) contact the Trust and post the figures here for anyone else that maybe curious. Think of it as a matter of civic responsibility on your part.

Well, let's just do that, won't we.

Focus Ireland first.

https://www.focusireland.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Focus-Ireland-Consolidated-accounts-31-December-2018.pdf

Focus Ireland changed CEOs during 2018, so their total payment to the person holding the CEO position during 2018 was €134,318, probably just about what a Junior Minister gets. See page 50

I must say they did a good job of hiding away their full annual accounts. Charities are required to publish their accounts on their website, but this was a hard find.

https://pmvtrust.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/2018-PMVT-CLG-Signed-Audited-Accounts.pdf

CEO gets paid between 100k and 110k, more than a TD. See page 21


https://www.simon.ie/Portals/1/Simon%20Communities%20of%20Ireland%2031-12-2016%20Wo%20signed%20accounts.pdf

€91,375 for the CEO of Simon Communities. A bit less you might say, but then you realise that income was only $934k, which means that the CEO alone cost 10% of their income. Way to go on donating to them.

https://www.svp.ie/news-media/publications/svp-financial-statements.aspx

The CEO of St.Vincent de Paul is paid between €110k and €120k. However, they take in €82m, could build quite a few houses with that.


I could on, looking at more charities, but the picture is the same, nice money for CEOs.

weldoninhio

salmocab wrote: »

That’s not an answer to the question I asked.

OK, then no, i would not class it as reaching the source. We have multiple mental health charities to look after mental health issues.

The resistance to joined up thinking to save money/get more money to the service users is pathetic and really shows up "charity" workers (another oxymoron).

Plumbthedepths

blanch152 wrote: »

Well, let's just do that, won't we.

Focus Ireland first.

https://www.focusireland.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Focus-Ireland-Consolidated-accounts-31-December-2018.pdf

Focus Ireland changed CEOs during 2018, so their total payment to the person holding the CEO position during 2018 was €134,318, probably just about what a Junior Minister gets. See page 50

I must say they did a good job of hiding away their full annual accounts. Charities are required to publish their accounts on their website, but this was a hard find.

https://pmvtrust.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/2018-PMVT-CLG-Signed-Audited-Accounts.pdf

CEO gets paid between 100k and 110k, more than a TD. See page 21


https://www.simon.ie/Portals/1/Simon%20Communities%20of%20Ireland%2031-12-2016%20Wo%20signed%20accounts.pdf

€91,375 for the CEO of Simon Communities. A bit less you might say, but then you realise that income was only $934k, which means that the CEO alone cost 10% of their income. Way to go on donating to them.

https://www.svp.ie/news-media/publications/svp-financial-statements.aspx

The CEO of St.Vincent de Paul is paid between €110k and €120k. However, they take in €82m, could build quite a few houses with that.


I could on, looking at more charities, but the picture is the same, nice money for CEOs.

I know it's off topic but I find your 'outrage' amusing as you on other threads happily defended the waste of circa 1 billion euro on a pet project of the previous FG/Lab.
So you'll have to excuse me but I can't take you sense of indignation seriously.

blanch152

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

I know it's off topic but I find your 'outrage' amusing as you on other threads happily defended the waste of circa 1 billion euro on a pet project of the previous FG/Lab.
So you'll have to excuse me but I can't take you sense of indignation seriously.

What outrage? I just posted the facts that you asked for.

Confronted with them, you ran away from the debate, threw in a personal insult and deflected to something else. If you had just mentioned Hitler, I could have shouted Full House on all the usual deflection tactics.

salmocab

weldoninhio wrote: »

OK, then no, i would not class it as reaching the source. We have multiple mental health charities to look after mental health issues.

The resistance to joined up thinking to save money/get more money to the service users is pathetic and really shows up "charity" workers (another oxymoron).

Okay so what would you class as reaching the source for someone with mental health issues? Giving them cash?

Charity workers is not an oxymoron it simply means people working in the charities sector. There is almost certainly a lot of waste in the sector but I doubt much of it is a frontline worker getting 37k a year.

Plumbthedepths

blanch152 wrote: »

What outrage? I just posted the facts that you asked for.

Confronted with them, you ran away from the debate, threw in a personal insult and deflected to something else. If you had just mentioned Hitler, I could have shouted Full House on all the usual deflection tactics.

You made reference to hidden accounts sounded like outrage to me. As for debate I can't take you serious as I have seen your behaviour on other threads ,<snip>. Btw there was no insult in my first response to you but fairpay for validating what I said about disingenuous.
Lastly just for clarity I didn't in my response to MA say I was interested in the figures. My reply to her is still there.

Plumbthedepths

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

I know it's off topic but I find your 'outrage' amusing as you on other threads happily defended the waste of circa 1 billion euro on a pet project of the previous FG/Lab.
So you'll have to excuse me but I can't take you sense of indignation seriously.

So, you only want posts that suits your viewpoint? Plenty of posters on various threads across Boards criticise the Government and various ministers yet when questions are being asked about the running of a high profile, we’re cut down.
We live in a democracy where free speech and debate are allowed.

Plumbthedepths

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So, you only want posts that suits your viewpoint? Plenty of posters on various threads across Boards criticise the Government and various ministers yet when questions are being asked about the running of a high profile, we’re cut down.
We live in a democracy where free speech and debate are allowed.

Where did I suggest I only want posts that suit my viewpoint?
I don't think however I or anyone else is obligated to engage with a person one finds to be less than sincere.

easypazz

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

So you are accusing the people running the charities of theft/misappropriation?

Salaries and generous expenses alone hoover up a wedge of cash.

Then we have the scandal of Rehab, and there have been others.

I never give a penny directly to "charity" as I have already donated via taxation.

If the various charities were Government Departments who were spending upwards of 80% (more than 100% in the case of PMCVT in 2017) of their entire funding budget on wages alone it would be a national scandal, and the same guys who are defending that spending here would be up in arms.

Yet, those who spend the funds are unaccountable for what and where it gets spent on despite the fact that it is coming from the same source as if it was a public sector body.

Look, we get it. You work for a charity. Fair play. There's millions who wouldn't, including me. And yes, you can and do deserve to be paid for your work, probably more so than most. What you cannot do, however, is put your fingers in your ears when people are questioning if it is the best possible use of the funds being allocated towards this issue.

That's literally all people are doing, here, really. Questioning the need for so many with their hand out and the value for money received.
Is zero homeless charities too few?......Yes, of course.
Is one hundred homeless charities too many?.....Yes, of course.
So, whats the optimum number? I mean, if you're altruistic enough to want to help, then you should also be clamouring to ensure that as much of the Govt. funding goes to those who need it most, no?

Instead we get "I'm alright, Jack, there is no problem"

blanch152

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Where did I suggest I only want posts that suit my viewpoint?
I don't think however I or anyone else is obligated to engage with a person one finds to be less than sincere.

You are being asked to engage with the facts, yet you deflect to the poster, not the post. Classic diversion.

Do you think that charities are fully transparent and that some CEOs of charities deserve to be paid €130k?

weldoninhio

salmocab wrote: »

Okay so what would you class as reaching the source for someone with mental health issues? Giving them cash?

Charity workers is not an oxymoron it simply means people working in the charities sector. There is almost certainly a lot of waste in the sector but I doubt much of it is a frontline worker getting 37k a year.

Money goes to Mental Health Charities to deal with mental health. If they need help, go to one of the very many mental health charities.

Plumbthedepths

blanch152 wrote: »

You are being asked to engage with the facts, yet you deflect to the poster, not the post. Classic diversion.

Do you think that charities are fully transparent and that some CEOs of charities deserve to be paid €130k?

You claimed I asked for the figures, that is false I didn't. I 'm not deflecting at all, I've explained why I have no interest in engaging with you. You have demonstrated a willingness to openly lie, so any right you feel you have to a response is void. Discuss your figures with MA it was she who posed the question about numbers.

salmocab

weldoninhio wrote: »

Money goes to Mental Health Charities to deal with mental health. If they need help, go to one of the very many mental health charities.

Well yes but I asked you what the mental health charities should be spending the money on if it’s not health workers? If you gave money to a mental health charity what would you expect them to spend the money on?

blanch152

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

You claimed I asked for the figures, that is false I didn't. I 'm not deflecting at all, I've explained why I have no interest in engaging with you. You have demonstrated a willingness to openly lie, so any right you feel you have to a response is void. Discuss your figures with MA it was she who posed the question about numbers.

You didn't ask for the figures?

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

........contact the Trust and post the figures here..........Think of it as a matter of civic responsibility on your part.

You asked someone to contact the Trust and post the figures here, and you saw that as a matter of civic responsibility.

I actually go and do what you ask, my civic duty as you call it, yet that makes me the liar!!!!!

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Not interested as I'm not petty enough to wish to deny help to people that need it, Although I doubt all the Trust's employees are frontline but you probably know that aswell. Also I don't consider an average wage of 37k well paid.

Do you consider €130k for a CEO of a homeless charity to be well-paid or not?

Simple question, run away again from answering it.

Plumbthedepths

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

You claimed I asked for the figures, that is false I didn't. I 'm not deflecting at all, I've explained why I have no interest in engaging with you. You have demonstrated a willingness to openly lie, so any right you feel you have to a response is void. Discuss your figures with MA it was she who posed the question about numbers.

The heading says Peter Trust McVerry staff and wages. That’s what we’re discussing.
Plenty post elsewhere querying various funding. Irish Water, FAI, Etc. People are looking for value for money. It would appear that some homeless charities are for the benefit of their staff rather than the cause that was their original well meaning intention.

weldoninhio

salmocab wrote: »

Well yes but I asked you what the mental health charities should be spending the money on if it’s not health workers? If you gave money to a mental health charity what would you expect them to spend the money on?

Mental Health Services. So why are homeless charities doublnig up and employing MH staff???

Plumbthedepths

blanch152 wrote: »

You didn't ask for the figures?




You asked someone to contact the Trust and post the figures here, and you saw that as a matter of civic responsibility.

I actually go and do what you ask, my civic duty as you call it, yet that makes me the liar!!!!!



Do you consider €130k for a CEO of a homeless charity to be well-paid or not?

Simple question, run away again from answering it.

https://touch.boards.ie/post/edit/111950301

As I said a lie on your behalf.

salmocab

weldoninhio wrote: »

Mental Health Services. So why are homeless charities doublnig up and employing MH staff???

So you would expect them to supply mental health services, surely that is what they are doing if they supply mental health professionals. They are doubling up because the state doesn’t provide the services required.

Plumbthedepths

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The heading says Peter Trust McVerry staff and wages. That’s what we’re discussing.
Plenty post elsewhere querying various funding. Irish Water, FAI, Etc. People are looking for value for money. It would appear that some homeless charities are for the benefit of their staff rather than the cause that was their original well meaning intention.

Surely then you should lobby your local TD to make respesentations to government to take all these services back under the provision of central government where we will then most assuredly get value for money.

blanch152

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

https://touch.boards.ie/post/edit/111950301

As I said a lie on your behalf.

Your link is broken, seems to be an attempt to edit a post. Wonder why.

We now know from the links I have posted, from some deep searching on homeless charity websites, that there are some very well paid people working for homeless charities. The question is whether that is deserved or not.

Does the CEO of Focus Ireland deserved to be paid as much as a Junior Minister?

ohnonotgmail

blanch152 wrote: »

Your link is broken, seems to be an attempt to edit a post. Wonder why.

We now know from the links I have posted, from some deep searching on homeless charity websites, that there are some very well paid people working for homeless charities. The question is whether that is deserved or not.

Does the CEO of Focus Ireland deserved to be paid as much as a Junior Minister?

I'm not sure that is the comparison you want it to be. Most junior ministers are operating way above their skillset.

salmocab

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I'm not sure that is the comparison you want it to be. Most junior ministers are operating way above their skillset.

You could easily ask does a junior minister deserve to be paid as a ceo

ohnonotgmail

salmocab wrote: »

You could easily ask does a junior minister deserve to be paid as a ceo

Indeed.

weldoninhio

salmocab wrote: »

So you would expect them to supply mental health services, surely that is what they are doing if they supply mental health professionals. They are doubling up because the state doesn’t provide the services required.

Why are the homeless charities not referring their users to a mental health charity rather than employing MH workers themselves. It's a gravy train.

salmocab

weldoninhio wrote: »

Why are the homeless charities not referring their users to a mental health charity rather than employing MH workers themselves. It's a gravy train.

Well if they were doing that then the mental health charity would need more resources, it’s rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic. So long as the state doesn’t do these things then charities will have to, I would be fairly confident that charities get more bang for their buck in general than the state ever would.
That all said I’m also sure that some charities absolutely squander peoples money and have overpaid staff and management but I’d think they are very much a minority.

Also just to add if they were referring them to a mental health charity the mental health charity would be employing mental health professionals that you have already shouldn’t be funded by the charity.

blanch152

salmocab wrote: »

Well if they were doing that then the mental health charity would need more resources, it’s rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic. So long as the state doesn’t do these things then charities will have to, I would be fairly confident that charities get more bang for their buck in general than the state ever would.
That all said I’m also sure that some charities absolutely squander peoples money and have overpaid staff and management but I’d think they are very much a minority.

Also just to add if they were referring them to a mental health charity the mental health charity would be employing mental health professionals that you have already shouldn’t be funded by the charity.

On what basis are you fairly confident?

It seems that around here charities get a free pass but the government is criticised for everything. No evidence presented for the differing treatment.

LirW

weldoninhio wrote: »

Why are the homeless charities not referring their users to a mental health charity rather than employing MH workers themselves. It's a gravy train.

Most mental health charities deal with suicidal people and focus on raising awareness that mental health can screw everyone.
When people are already homeless you don't only have to support them with mental health but there is a lot of work to be done so they can sufficiently look after themselves and can be integrated into the community after living outside of it.

I'd assume that in some ways they work hand in hand but if you have a look at the list of mental health charities it becomes clear that each one covers a different area.

Also to answer an earlier question about other countries and homeless charities: I can only talk about Austria but there are homeless people there too as well as charities taking care of them. The difference is that there is compulsory military service for young men in place and who doesn't want to serve in the military has to do social service. The whole sector is built on slave labour of young men being paid 400 euros a month for having a full time position with minimal training. It's not only charities but also Paramedic services consisting of some volunteers, some paid staff and a large number of young lads doing their time. It was one of the main reasons why the country voted to keep the military service a couple of years ago.
Also access to support in crisis situations is a lot easier and while it's underfunded there aswell, the waiting times are shorter and housing benefits are entirely different. The system is not working too well over there either but it's fundamentally different to here because healthcare, social care and housing are a different system.

salmocab

blanch152 wrote: »

On what basis are you fairly confident?

It seems that around here charities get a free pass but the government is criticised for everything. No evidence presented for the differing treatment.

I know you love to defend the government but if you look closely I said the state, I was referring to the civil service. If all the charities were taken into the civil service I don’t believe for a minute that they would deliver the same amount. Also I wasn’t giving charities a free pass on anything.