Trevor Deely case - new witness

smelly sock

20Wheel wrote: »

But bodies float. And the canal locks were all closed.

Maybe further along the route. After the locks.

There's no known footage of him from the US embassy. And that's a place that would probably have no shortage of cameras. Likewise the Israeli embassy.

Dublin bay??

Day Lewin

BDI wrote: »

And nearly every fit young healthy man in Ireland visits Amsterdam for the weed and the coffee.

I imagine that the sex workers in the area must have been questioned about this; whether they'd seen TD passing, for instance - or if he'd ever been a customer - but the Guards and the family and friends all seem unanimous that the latter was NOT the case.
And it was such a dirty night, even the streetwalkers were not to be seen.

bunderoon

Any chance the place where he worked is a reason for his disappearance?
A few wanted something and the office party was the perfect time to do it.

We have the water accident and the gangster/prostitute possibilities.
The face that he worked for a bank should not be ruled out of hand.

Fr Tod Umptious

20Wheel wrote: »

But bodies float. And the canal locks were all closed.

Maybe further along the route. After the locks.

There's no known footage of him from the US embassy. And that's a place that would probably have no shortage of cameras. Likewise the Israeli embassy.

But he was past the Canal by the time he was spotted on Haddington Rd heading east, which incidentally leads towards the coast.

And he would have had to cross the Dodder to get home from where he was last spotted, so he was close to a fast flowing body of water on a stormy night

Fr Tod Umptious

bunderoon wrote: »

Any chance the place where he worked is a reason for his disappearance?
A few wanted something and the office party was the perfect time to do it.

We have the water accident and the gangster/prostitute possibilities.
The face that he worked for a bank should not be ruled out of hand.

No, again it's just complete folly

He was a junior IT engineer at a asset management arm of a bank

Explain to us how his job would have been relevant

Fiftyfilthy

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But he was past the Canal by the time he was spotted on Haddington Rd heading east, which incidentally leads towards the coast.

And he would have had to cross the Dodder to get home from where he was last spotted, so he was close to a fast flowing body of water on a stormy night

If he took a left After the Bank machine , brings you parallel to Haddington Road and directly by the canal again onto Percy place

20Wheel

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But he was past the Canal by the time he was spotted on Haddington Rd heading east, which incidentally leads towards the coast.

And he would have had to cross the Dodder to get home from where he was last spotted, so he was close to a fast flowing body of water on a stormy night

Afaik it's locks all the way down.
At Haddington Rd, point of last footage he was still several locks from any free river.

On a mobile device so I'm a bit restricted here.

strandroad

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But he was past the Canal by the time he was spotted on Haddington Rd heading east, which incidentally leads towards the coast.

And he would have had to cross the Dodder to get home from where he was last spotted, so he was close to a fast flowing body of water on a stormy night

The Dodder is not easy to fall into at any of the crossings in the area, the bridges at Ballsbridge, Lansdowne Road, Bath Avenue are all secured with walls and railings, you can't step around or under the bridge to pee or anything like it, the banks are not accessible. It's all paved and walled. The Dodder walk wouldn't be on his way unless he walked a large loop and was only coming home; it is paved and secured today but when was that done?

The Canal banks are grassy and accessible but he was walking away and not towards it unless he took Percy Place rather than Haddington Road (away from his place?) or continued all the way to the basin. No location before the basin is likely anyway, because of the locks.

John_Rambo

BDI wrote: »

And nearly every fit young healthy man in Ireland visits Amsterdam for the weed and the coffee.

Every fit young healthy man? Speak for yourself BDI.

smelly sock

strandroad wrote: »

The Dodder is not easy to fall into at any of the crossings in the area, the bridges at Ballsbridge, Lansdowne Road, Bath Avenue are all secured with walls and railings, you can't step around or under the bridge to pee or anything like it, the banks are not accessible. It's all paved and walled. The Dodder walk wouldn't be on his way unless he walked a large loop and was only coming home; it is paved and secured today but when was that done?

The Canal banks are grassy and accessible but he was walking away and not towards it unless he took Percy Place rather than Haddington Road (away from his place?) or continued all the way to the basin. No location before the basin is likely anyway, because of the locks.

Dublin bay.

Fr Tod Umptious

Fiftyfilthy wrote: »

If he took a left After the Bank machine , brings you parallel to Haddington Road and directly by the canal again onto Percy place

20Wheel wrote: »

Afaik it's locks all the way down.
At Haddington Rd, point of last footage he was still several locks from any free river.

On a mobile device so I'm a bit restricted here.

If he hand turned left onto Percy Place from Haddington Rd, and fell into the canal then we would not be having this conversation.
Because his body would have been found a long long time ago.

So I think "turning left onto Percy Place and falling into canal" can be removed from the list of thinks that might have happened

John_Rambo

smelly sock wrote: »

Dublin bay.

To dispose a body in Dublin bay and keep it hidden would involve nasty logistics including invasive tempering with the corpse, heavy weights, tidal knowledge and probably a boat with night time navigational abilities and the personal to a
operate the craft. Without such, the unfortunate deceased would have washed up on the East coast sooner or later.

smelly sock

John_Rambo wrote: »

To dispose a body in Dublin bay and keep it hidden would involve nasty logistics including invasive tempering with the corpse, heavy weights, tidal knowledge and probably a boat with night time navigational abilities and the personal to a
operate the craft. Without such, the unfortunate deceased would have washed up on the East coast sooner or later.

Suicide.

Google Conor Whooley.

Fiftyfilthy

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

If he hand turned left onto Percy Place from Haddington Rd, and fell into the canal then we would not be having this conversation.
Because his body would have been found a long long time ago.

So I think "turning left onto Percy Place and falling into canal" can be removed from the list of thinks that might have happened

True, but could have carried on walking to the basin

Fr Tod Umptious

John_Rambo wrote: »

To dispose a body in Dublin bay and keep it hidden would involve nasty logistics including invasive tempering with the corpse, heavy weights, tidal knowledge and probably a boat with night time navigational abilities and the personal to a
operate the craft. Without such, the unfortunate deceased would have washed up on the East coast sooner or later.

And maybe the unfortunate individual did wash up on the East coast (I'm not suggesting that Trevor's body was dumped in the sea by the way)

There is a case from a few years ago of an unidentified body being found on a Louth beach in 2006

10 years later it was identified as being that of a Dublin man that went missing in 2006.

Now I personally think that the publicity surrounding Trevor's disappearance would have reduced the likelihood of the body of a 20 something year old male turning up on an Irish coast and no one saying "maybe it's that guy missing from Dublin that has been all over the news this past few /days/weeks/months"

But it is still possible, and very possible if it turned up on the coast of the UK.

John_Rambo

smelly sock wrote: »

Suicide.

Google Conor Whooley.

I know, shocking story, but most suicides in the bay end up on the East coast. I spend a lot of time in and on the water in Dublin bay. I've come across a few and my fellow water friends have come found more. It's the nature of the tides and it's how Irish Waters sewerage ends up on the beaches. There's the odd outlier like the tragic Conor Whooley case, but there's a huge amount of suicides and most are found on local beaches.

Edit.. you just don't hear about the ones that are found locally. There's no story there.

20Wheel

bunderoon wrote: »

Any chance the place where he worked is a reason for his disappearance?
A few wanted something and the office party was the perfect time to do it.

We have the water accident and the gangster/prostitute possibilities.
The face that he worked for a bank should not be ruled out of hand.

Maybe he was just recognised by local criminals as yer man who works in the bank. While having a few in bucks.

Marked as an opportunity for a mugging or other crime.
Young Country lad, soft target, bank worker probably has a few quid. Few pints in him. They could have known his route. Seeing him regularly around their area.

So one stands by the pillar on wilton terrace, a point td has to pass no matter the route. There won't be any cabs, and he has to go home.

Another watches for him to leave. Calls the first guy. They've planned a point further along on his route to ambush him.

MIB steps out from the pillar sees its yer man from the bank indeed. Goes to the gate expecting TD to follow, which he does. Sizes him up with some muggers questions. You got a smoke? etc.

But its a bit busy on that corner for a mugging. Bank building, security.

TD goes in, MIB hangs back. TD leaves. MIB follows. TD turns down Haddington the plan is in motion.

The spotter has a car, he'll be in front of TD, MIB will be behind. They'll rip him off somewhere quiet along his route home. Then they'll hop in the car with tds wallet. And off away.

It goes very wrong. Well known to gardai locally they don't have the luxury of simply legging it in the era of dna/forensics. But they do have a car

Thats my guess anyway.

John_Rambo

20Wheel wrote: »

Maybe he was just recognised by local criminals as yer man who works in the bank. While having a few in bucks.

Marked as an opportunity for a mugging or other crime.
Young Country lad, soft target, bank worker probably has a few quid. Few pints in him. They could have known his route. Seeing him regularly around their area.

So one stands by the pillar on wilton terrace, a point td has to pass no matter the route. There won't be any cabs, and he has to go home.

Another watches for him to leave. Calls the first guy. They've planned a point further along on his route to ambush him.

MIB steps out from the pillar sees its yer man from the bank indeed. Goes to the gate expecting TD to follow, which he does. Sizes him up with some muggers questions. You got a smoke? etc.

But its a bit busy on that corner for a mugging. Bank building, security.

TD goes in, MIB hangs back. TD leaves. MIB follows. TD turns down Haddington the plan is in motion.

The spotter has a car, he'll be in front of TD, MIB will be behind. They'll rip him off somewhere quiet along his route home. Then they'll hop in the car with tds wallet. And off away.

It goes very wrong. Well known to gardai locally they don't have the luxury of simply legging it in the era of dna/forensics. But they do have a car

Thats my guess anyway.

They'd more money than any of the young bankers. They were rolling in cash, mugging wasn't and still isn't a thing for them.

Day Lewin

20Wheel wrote: »

Maybe he was just recognised by local criminals as yer man who works in the bank. While having a few in bucks.

Marked as an opportunity for a mugging or other crime.
Young Country lad, soft target, bank worker probably has a few quid. Few pints in him. They could have known his route. Seeing him regularly around their area.

So one stands by the pillar on wilton terrace, a point td has to pass no matter the route. There won't be any cabs, and he has to go home.

Another watches for him to leave. Calls the first guy. They've planned a point further along on his route to ambush him.

MIB steps out from the pillar sees its yer man from the bank indeed. Goes to the gate expecting TD to follow, which he does. Sizes him up with some muggers questions. You got a smoke? etc.

But its a bit busy on that corner for a mugging. Bank building, security.

TD goes in, MIB hangs back. TD leaves. MIB follows. TD turns down Haddington the plan is in motion.

The spotter has a car, he'll be in front of TD, MIB will be behind. They'll rip him off somewhere quiet along his route home. Then they'll hop in the car with tds wallet. And off away.

It goes very wrong. Well known to gardai locally they don't have the luxury of simply legging it in the era of dna/forensics. But they do have a car

Thats my guess anyway.

This is clearly reasoned and in line with the known facts. May well be quite close to what really happened.

John_Rambo

sugarman wrote: »

I think he meant a few drinks in Buck Whaley's, not bucks as in cash.. but that's a very fair point, none of them are petty thieves. As a young lad in the year 2000, you'd probably only have £20 or £30 on you for a night out. Pittance.

Oh right... fair enough. I still, like you, find it hard to believe there'd be such a complicated sting that includes cars and spotters to mug someone at the end of a night. Maybe a cash van or a jewellery shop, but not a young fella heading home.

20Wheel

John_Rambo wrote: »

They'd more money than any of the young bankers. They were rolling in cash, mugging wasn't and still isn't a thing for them.

Why not. Criminals do mug people. Opportunist thief mindset. They think different.

20Wheel

John_Rambo wrote: »

Oh right... fair enough. I still, like you, find it hard to believe there'd be such a complicated sting that includes cars and spotters to mug someone at the end of a night. Maybe a cash van or a jewellery shop, but not a young fella heading home.

Hardly that sophisticated.

That young country lad we see around has a few in him.

I'll go ahead, you wait at the corner follow behind . I'll call you when he leaves.

strandroad

John_Rambo wrote: »

Oh right... fair enough. I still, like you, find it hard to believe there'd be such a complicated sting that includes cars and spotters to mug someone at the end of a night. Maybe a cash van or a jewellery shop, but not a young fella heading home.

There are and were ATMs in the area, you could threaten someone to withdraw cash, up to their daily limit anyway.

Fr Tod Umptious

John_Rambo wrote: »

Oh right... fair enough. I still, like you, find it hard to believe there'd be such a complicated sting that includes cars and spotters to mug someone at the end of a night. Maybe a cash van or a jewellery shop, but not a young fella heading home.

And to hang around in the cold and wet in full view of CCTV as part of the plan ?

Hardly

John_Rambo

20Wheel wrote: »

Why not. Criminals do mug people. Opportunist thief mindset. They think different.

I knew a few absolute crazies in the area. As nuts as they were, I just don't see them putting much effort in to a mugging. They left that to opportunistic druggies, teenagers and desperates and fence them off for a decent profit. I was working in the area as a photographer and I was offered seriously expensive robbed gear.

However, they'd really kick off if they felt they were "belittled" or if someone slighted them or got the better of them. They'd be more likely to exact revenge on someone that had an altercation with them and got the upper hand.

Basically they were bullies, narcissistic bullies and if a young fella got the better of them on their turf, they'd come back with friends and all guns blazing to keep face.

20Wheel

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

And to hang around in the cold and wet in full view of CCTV as part of the plan ?

Hardly

If they were on the gear, looking for cash for a hit. Lightning balls wouldn't stop a fiend.

Omackeral

20Wheel wrote: »

There won't be any cabs, and he has to go home.

Jesus Christ the way that's said is so sinister and not something that's ever entered my mind before. This taxi strike was known ahead of time. If there was any premeditated angle, it makes sense to do something on that night in a sense. Now I'm not saying you're right but it's definitely another direction of thought.

Fr Tod Umptious

20Wheel wrote: »

If they were on the gear, looking for cash for a hit. Lightning balls wouldn't stop a fiend.

But why wait 30 mins in the cold and wet for a single target when there are many many more around ?

20Wheel

Omackeral wrote: »

Jesus Christ the way that's said is so sinister and not something that's ever entered my mind before. This taxi strike was known ahead of time. If there was any premeditated angle, it makes sense to do something on that night in a sense. Now I'm not saying you're right but it's definitely another direction of thought.

Yeah. I'm not taking this theory as gospel. Just the shape that seems best fit the hole, from what vague details are out there.

oneilla

Lina Limited Workaholic wrote: »

see that now thanks i think i read his work place is different now? are the gates still there? or even the bank

The gates are still there as is the pillar. It wasn't a commercial bank open to the public but like, a block of offices. Fwiw the old ATM CCTV camera is still at Milanos restaurant on the corner of Haddington Rd/Baggot St.

soiseztomabel wrote: »

On the last thread (which descended into an absolute ****e-show) I remember a guy talking about passing up somewhere along a similar route to Trevor Deely and was followed then chased by a group which he thankfully got away from...

He said he made contact and reported it to the guards before he got into the details he said the guard he was speaking to asked him was he followed by a gang. 

Apparently the cops were well aware of several attempted muggings in the area by a group.  Didn’t a prostitute who fell foul for owing a drug gang in the vicinity get stabbed to death a year or two before this incident happened too that many thought were perhaps linked to this too?

Indeed the last thread turned ridiculous however on your last point: That was Sinead Kelly who was murdered in 1998. Around the time of the renewed appeal and release of enhanced video footage in 2017, John Mooney had a piece in the Sunday Times about Trevor in which there was a random mention to Sinead's murder. I can't link to it as the ST is paywalled but at the time this reference seemed very random and out of place. Then the search at Chapelizod began a few months later and a lot of the papers published stories along the line that Trevor fell foul of a criminal at a chance encounter. And then there's this new witness whose "sex has not been disclosed" - to quote the piece linked in the OP.

It wasn't just posters here speculating about links to crime figures and prostitutes in the area. Many column inches were filled with quotes from unnamed Garda sources openly portraying a certain narrative.

Fwiw, Trevor's father is quoted
here:

"We are none the wiser," said Michael.

"To say that it is done and dusted is nonsense and very insensitive. It is an impossible thing for his family to live with and we are still appealing for information. We are never going to give up hope and we need help with the appeal from any body with any information to talk to the gardai."

20Wheel

As someone in the other thread said, there is... Or at least was.... one more angle to look at.
Phone calls. MIB takes at least two.

Even on a burner phone the appropriate credit must be charged.
So if your number makes a call at x time for x duration that must be recorded to calculate the price.

Which phones made a call at both ~3:00 and ~3:30. Line up the times with the CCTV. To find mibs phone number.

Can't have been many.

noodler

So this gang had spotters in buck whaleys at 2am.

Picked out TD somehow.

Phones ahead.

Spotters, cars etc.

Hang around in the rain for a full hour.

Have no idea if TD would come back out of the bank.

Didn't think to hit an easier target in the interim.


Oh, and btw, if you are wondering why they'd be so stupid as to get themselves on the gate CCTV..it's because they are on the gear (despite the elaborate premeditation described above).

20Wheel

noodler wrote: »

So this gang had spotters in buck whaleys at 2am.

Picked out TD somehow.

Phones ahead.

Spotters, cars etc.

Hang around in the rain for a full hour.

Have no idea if TD would come back out of the bank.

Didn't think to hit an easier target in the interim.


Oh, and btw, if you are wondering why they'd be so stupid as to get themselves on the gate CCTV..it's because they are on the gear (despite the elaborate premeditation described above).

Spotters, cars. Plural. Way to embellish what was said.

Pathetic.

completedit

Always and continues to scare me so much. I mean it's weird though, how it's the unknown that makes it so fascinating and eerie. I mean the end result is the same, Trevor was taken from his family and friends without an explanation but if he has just been found lifeless then wouldn't be as scary. Something about a young guy just vanishing on a cold Miserable December night it's so unsettling. Even stuff like the way there was a taxi strike seems unsettling for some reason. All conspired to his disappearance

Jeff2

There was a courier company van parked up on Mount Street at the bottom of Herbert Street around the dates.

For a few nights.

noodler

20Wheel wrote: »

Spotters, cars. Plural. Way to embellish what was said.

Pathetic.

You used the EXACT words spotter and car.

What on earth are you talking about?

Nice imagination anyway, the curious tale of the out of it junky gang who planned the logistics of muggings hours in advance.

Fiftyfilthy

Gangs drove up and down the red light area all the time as would deliver heroin to the working girls. Easy money. Usually 100e min bought from just one brazzer

20Wheel

noodler wrote: »

You used the EXACT words spotter and car.

What on earth are you talking about?

Nice imagination anyway, the curious tale of the out of it junky gang who planned the logistics of muggings hours in advance.

Bye. Don't waste my time.

KWAG2019

I’m not quite sure how but I came across an older thread from over 2 years ago about TD. Extraordinarily similar to this but even more detailed analyses of CCTV and lights and puddles. Some interesting themes: why Haddington Rd route, why not visible on CCTV at US or Israeli embassy, not visible on CCTV in Ballsbridge, water featured too with the canal largely dismissed but one poster who tragically lost a relative in the river (Dodder I assume) was told they were lucky as a crane operator spotted body at the port before it was swept out to sea. Thread seems to have got confused about CCTV images and thought they had a “breakthrough” looking at other employees.

In short, same questions and same range of answers. It’s a bit Groundhog Day.

Alliance123

20Wheel wrote: »

As someone in the other thread said, there is... Or at least was.... one more angle to look at.
Phone calls. MIB takes at least two.

Even on a burner phone the appropriate credit must be charged.
So if your number makes a call at x time for x duration that must be recorded to calculate the price.

Which phones made a call at both ~3:00 and ~3:30. Line up the times with the CCTV. To find mibs phone number.

Can't have been many.

Being following your posts. You talk amazingly good sense. Well done

Alliance123

Sad but absolutely no chance of an accident - water or car imo. Altercation following interaction. Man at gate has answers and 100% guilty. Unknown motive, which is kinda irrelevant at this stage. Best wishes to his mates & family

Jeff2

Jeff2 wrote: »

There was a courier company van parked up on Mount Street at the bottom of Herbert Street around the dates.

For a few nights.

Are you mentioning this on first hand knowledge or did you read it somewhere.

Omackeral

Alliance123 wrote: »

Sad but absolutely no chance of an accident - water or car imo. Altercation following interaction. Man at gate has answers and 100% guilty. Unknown motive, which is kinda irrelevant at this stage. Best wishes to his mates & family

I'd hate for you to be on a jury.

100% guilty just like that? No room for doubt? You could argue why hasn't he come forward but then chances of things could be considered like he's actually not even from Dublin/Ireland and lives abroad so this stuff doesn't make it to his knowledge. He himself could be dead.

Some people I know have never even heard of the Trevor Deely case. My mate is a serving memeber of the Gardai and didn't know about it when the renewed appeal happened a few years ago. You cannot make absolute assumptions.

Yes it's eerie and it's suspicious but it can't be known for sure what happened at all.

Fr Tod Umptious

20Wheel wrote: »

As someone in the other thread said, there is... Or at least was.... one more angle to look at.
Phone calls. MIB takes at least two.

Even on a burner phone the appropriate credit must be charged.
So if your number makes a call at x time for x duration that must be recorded to calculate the price.

Which phones made a call at both ~3:00 and ~3:30. Line up the times with the CCTV. To find mibs phone number.

Can't have been many.

There could have been thousands.
It's December party season, there are loads of people on phones, people live and work in the area.

First you have to take the two networks Eircell and Esat Digifone.
Then you have to determine the range of their transmitters in the area, (some overlap)
Then you have to look at each and every call, both incoming and outgoing on those transmitters that fit the time period.
Then you have to chase up on each and every one of those numbers to eliminate people.

And what do you do with the ones you have left that are pay as you go, burner as you call them ?

Start cross referencing each and every one of them with other calls they made the same night/next day to find some sort of pattern ?

It's an adult missing persons case remember, not an criminal case.

dubstarr

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

And to hang around in the cold and wet in full view of CCTV as part of the plan ?

Hardly

Well full view or not,we dont know who the MIB is.

It just takes one person having a conscience,and come forward.And this could be solved.

The only reason MIB hasnt come forward is because hes the reason Trevor disappeared.

Fr Tod Umptious

dubstarr wrote: »

Well full view or not,we dont know who the MIB is.

It just takes one person having a conscience,and come forward.And this could be solved.

The only reason MIB hasnt come forward is because hes the reason Trevor disappeared.

No, there many different reasons why MIB has never been identified.

1. He could be deceased.
2. He could be some one that takes no interest in the news, we all know people who don't watch the news or read the papers so he might be totally unaware of all this.
3. He may have seen the Trevor Deely missing posters in the city but makes no connection with Trevor being the guy he talked to.

How much media attention was there about looking for a man that talked to Trevor outside BOIAM during the early days of the case ?

4. He may have left the country for any one of hundreds of reasons.

dubstarr

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

No, there many different reasons why MIB has never been identified.

1. He could be deceased.
2. He could be some one that takes no interest in the news, we all know people who don't watch the news or read the papers so he might be totally unaware of all this.
3. He may have seen the Trevor Deely missing posters in the city but makes no connection with Trevor being the guy he talked to.

How much media attention was there about looking for a man that talked to Trevor outside BOIAM during the early days of the case ?

4. He may have left the country for any one of hundreds of reasons.

How likely is all your scenerios or how likely is mone.Statistically the last person to see someone alive is the person that doen the crime.

Plus how could you not realise the person you where talking to,in now missing.
And the amount of coverage the case got,you would have to be on Mars or under a rock.

Day Lewin

dubstarr wrote: »

How likely is all your scenerios or how likely is mone.Statistically the last person to see someone alive is the person that doen the crime.

Plus how could you not realise the person you where talking to,in now missing.
And the amount of coverage the case got,you would have to be on Mars or under a rock.

Nothing in life is certain: but yet, this is mostly true.

Cops always start an investigation like this with "Who saw him last?"

smelly sock

Day Lewin wrote: »

Nothing in life is certain: but yet, this is mostly true.

Cops always start an investigation like this with "Who saw him last?"

We have no idea who saw him last. Cctv is inconclusive.

Imo suicide is the most logical explanation with the body being lost at sea.

The premeditated gang thing is way off. There would be evidence of interaction if TD was involved with a gang.

tdf7187

I was aware of the case as I worked and socialised in the area and certainly remember all the posters and so on. I honestly don't remember if I was out that night, I don't know how anyone could remember what they were doing on specific night from 19 years ago unless they have a photographic memory or keep detailed diaries.

The MIB's movements and behaviour are suspicious, that's all we can say. The cops may have info they have not released to the public.