Trevor Deely case - new witness

smelly sock

dubstarr wrote: »

Well full view or not,we dont know who the MIB is.

It just takes one person having a conscience,and come forward.And this could be solved.

The only reason MIB hasnt come forward is because hes the reason Trevor disappeared.

How do you know he is the reason?

tdf7187

smelly sock wrote: »

We have no idea who saw him last. Cctv is inconclusive.

Imo suicide is the most logical explanation with the body being lost at sea.

The premeditated gang thing is way off. There would be evidence of interaction if TD was involved with a gang.

IMO it is these kinds of speculations that probably upset the family and got the last thread closed. There is literally no evidence for suicide - none at all.

Fiftyfilthy

Hasn’t come forward as possibly dead. More would be dead than alive 20 years later if connected to the goings on in that area

Fr Tod Umptious

dubstarr wrote: »

How likely is all your scenerios or how likely is mone.Statistically the last person to see someone alive is the person that doen the crime.

Plus how could you not realise the person you where talking to,in now missing.
And the amount of coverage the case got,you would have to be on Mars or under a rock.

How much coverage was there of "the last person to see Trevor was an yet to be identified man standing outside BOIAM" back in December 2000 ?

This guy may have no idea that the guy he talked to for a few seconds late that night is the same guy on the posters.

For every missing person poster you see or hear about do you look into the circumstances and go back over your memory to figure if you might have interacted with them ?

If the answer is no then put yourself in the shoes of MIB in December 2000.

dubstarr

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

How much coverage was there of "the last person to see Trevor was an yet to be identified man standing outside BOIAM" back in December 2000 ?

This guy may have no idea that the guy he talked to for a few seconds late that night is the same guy on the posters.

For every missing person poster you see or hear about do you look into the circumstances and go back over your memory to figure if you might have interacted with them ?

If the answer is no then put yourself in the shoes of MIB in December 2000.

If i was around the area the time they went missing.I would got to the guards,it just takes that small bit of information to crack it.

And about would you remember what you where doing 20 years ago.Now i wouldnt but i would have 20 years ago.

smelly sock

tdf7187 wrote: »

IMO it is these kinds of speculations that probably upset the family and got the last thread closed. There is literally no evidence for suicide - none at all.

There is no evidence for any outcome.

Fr Tod Umptious

dubstarr wrote: »

If i was around the area the time they went missing.I would got to the guards,it just takes that small bit of information to crack it.

And about would you remember what you where doing 20 years ago.Now i wouldnt but i would have 20 years ago.

You see posters of Trevor around town in December 2000.

So you go to the Gardai with your information.

Let's say you go to them a week after Trevor went missing

Do you recall ever person you saw that night ?
Do you recall ever person you talked to that night ?
Do you recall who ever person you talked to was with that night ?

Trevor's colleagues talked to MIB, yet they have zero recollection of anything significant about him.

BDI

John_Rambo wrote: »

Every fit young healthy man? Speak for yourself BDI.

Nearly every. I’ve never been myself

smelly sock

tdf7187 wrote: »

IMO it is these kinds of speculations that probably upset the family and got the last thread closed. There is literally no evidence for suicide - none at all.

I think without being insensitive that the Deely family need to accept after 19 years people are going to speculate as to the outcome. Human nature and curiosity takes over here and theories are given. We could all just stop talking about it and forget it. That wouldn't be good either.

As another poster rightly said its the media who mentioned and chance altercation with a criminal gang involved with brazzers. Not us. We are merely debating that theory.

tdf7187

smelly sock wrote: »

I think without being insensitive that the Deely family need to accept after 19 years people are going to speculate as to the outcome. Human nature and curiosity takes over here and theories are given. We could all just stop talking about it and forget it. That wouldn't be good either.

As another poster rightly said its the media who mentioned and chance altercation with a criminal gang involved with brazzers. Not us. We are merely debating that theory.

Well I wouldn't disagree with you there. It's the media and police who are putting forward these theories, if the family object their grievance lies with the media and police not a few anonymous accounts on an internet board. Most posters have been respectful.

Fiftyfilthy

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

You see posters of Trevor around town in December 2000.

So you go to the Gardai with your information.

Let's say you go to them a week after Trevor went missing

Do you recall ever person you saw that night ?
Do you recall ever person you talked to that night ?
Do you recall who ever person you talked to was with that night ?


Trevor's colleagues talked to MIB, yet they have zero recollection of anything significant about him.

I wonder if they were even able to tell the Garda what they said to the mib?

20Wheel

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

There could have been thousands.
It's December party season, there are loads of people on phones, people live and work in the area.

First you have to take the two networks Eircell and Esat Digifone.
Then you have to determine the range of their transmitters in the area, (some overlap)
Then you have to look at each and every call, both incoming and outgoing on those transmitters that fit the time period.
Then you have to chase up on each and every one of those numbers to eliminate people.

And what do you do with the ones you have left that are pay as you go, burner as you call them ?

Start cross referencing each and every one of them with other calls they made the same night/next day to find some sort of pattern ?

It's an adult missing persons case remember, not an criminal case.

Thats what databases are for.

I don't think there would be many phones which connected at both exact times.

Thousands that connected at time 1, thousands that connected at time 2.

But very few at exactly both time 1 and 2.

Hope they caught this back in 2000. I like to imagine they did.

Some cute aul hoors in the gardai so live in hope.

smelly sock

Fiftyfilthy wrote: »

I wonder if they were even able to tell the Garda what they said to the mib?

Probably nothing of note you would assume.

KWAG2019

Anniversary appeal for information on RTE website this morning. Main details of the disappearance and nothing beyond that.

smelly sock

On a related note you'd feel sorry for the other poor unfortunates who went missing without a trace and dont get any coverage.

CollyFlower

It's really hard to tell the approximate age of the MIB, was it repeated as to how old he may be?

Fr Tod Umptious

20Wheel wrote: »

Thats what databases are for.

I don't think there would be many phones which connected at both exact times.

Thousands that connected at time 1, thousands that connected at time 2.

But very few at exactly both time 1 and 2.

Hope they caught this back in 2000. I like to imagine they did.

Some cute aul hoors in the gardai so live in hope.

Mobile phone work on what are know as cells
Phone connect to a cell to make calls, text etc
A phone is only connected to one cell at a time but can move between cells if the phone is moving or if the cell technology decides that another cell is better than the one the phone is currently.

Cells are usually geographical and may overlap
So in Dublin 2 or Dublin 4 you may have a number of cells covering different geographical areas

The task in hand is to determine what cells belonging to Eircell and Esat cover the outside of BOIAM.

Once that is established get the details of all calls that either originated or terminated on those cells at or around Time A and Time B.

That will be thousands
Then trawl through them to determine if any happen at Time A and Time B, again could be thousands
Then from that set go and try and identify the owners.
The bill pay ones are fine, you can identify them.
The pay as you go ones you might be only able to identify a subset of them that registered.
And then you are left with a set of numbers that you cannot identify

And thus you are left with MIB, who you cannot identify, which we know already.

If people went to that amount of effort to trace the calls made by MIB they are no closer to identifying him.

Day Lewin

smelly sock wrote: »

On a related note you'd feel sorry for the other poor unfortunates who went missing without a trace and dont get any coverage.

This for sure!

There have been some odd ones as well as the more predictable kind (meaning no offense, truly)

Alpho O Reilly? In his car, too...

Eva Brennan?
https://uccexpress.ie/unanswered-eva-brennan/

Their stories are as various as the missing themselves.
But we can say, for sure, that their families will mourn and wonder in grief and longing, until they know what really happened to their loved one.

tdf7187

Day Lewin wrote: »

This for sure!

There have been some odd ones as well as the more predictable kind (meaning no offense, truly)

Alpho O Reilly? In his car, too...

Eva Brennan?
https://uccexpress.ie/unanswered-eva-brennan/

Their stories are as various as the missing themselves.
But we can say, for sure, that their families will mourn and wonder in grief and longing, until they know what really happened to their loved one.

I only became aware of the Alpho O'Reilly case due to reading about another case, the unsolved murder of Charles Self. Alpho had been his boss in RTE.

20Wheel

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Mobile phone work on what are know as cells
Phone connect to a cell to make calls, text etc
A phone is only connected to one cell at a time but can move between cells if the phone is moving or if the cell technology decides that another cell is better than the one the phone is currently.

Cells are usually geographical and may overlap
So in Dublin 2 or Dublin 4 you may have a number of cells covering different geographical areas

The task in hand is to determine what cells belonging to Eircell and Esat cover the outside of BOIAM.

Once that is established get the details of all calls that either originated or terminated on those cells at or around Time A and Time B.

That will be thousands
Then trawl through them to determine if any happen at Time A and Time B, again could be thousands
Then from that set go and try and identify the owners.
The bill pay ones are fine, you can identify them.
The pay as you go ones you might be only able to identify a subset of them that registered.
And then you are left with a set of numbers that you cannot identify

And thus you are left with MIB, who you cannot identify, which we know already.

If people went to that amount of effort to trace the calls made by MIB they are no closer to identifying him.

Theres no need to trawl if a database is used. The computer will do the trawling. There won't be many numbers that correlate both exact times.

Even if the best that can be done is to establish a dozen pay as you go phones, these phones may have records of numbers dialled and received.

So you can build a picture of the social circle around the phone user.
Perhaps one number which regularly calls is registered to a known person in the D2 vicinity. So number x associates with known person.

There's no guarantee, but it's an avenue to look down.

I can remember being on a course with a basic database module way back in 2000. And it was a rudimentary, fas type deal.

So it's probably safe to assume that even back in 2000 business had a standard far surpassing basic databases.
After all, every user had to be kept content when they picked up their phone and checked their credit.

It would have to be accurate on rates, duration, time call made, number dialled, or you'd wake up one morning after topping up 30 and find you have 4.80 left. Because costs from five randomers calling priest chat last week were attributed to your account.

And esat/eircom would probably have to have had the facilities to check balances against complaints from people saying 'I never used my phone and my credits gone'.
So the means to quickly trawl calls made with databases would likely have been there.

The tax man would probably require it too. So you couldn't say oh we connected 3 calls this quarter and made a gross profit of 20 cent.
Nope, record those business transactions. Prove your turnover.

Fr Tod Umptious

20Wheel wrote: »

Theres no need to trawl if a database is used. The computer will do the trawling. There won't be many numbers that correlate both exact times.

Even if the best that can be done is to establish a dozen pay as you go phones, these phones may have records of numbers dialled and received.

So you can build a picture of the social circle around the phone user.
Perhaps one number which regularly calls is registered to a known person in the D2 vicinity. So number x associates with known person.

There's no guarantee, but it's an avenue to look down.

I can remember being on a course with a basic database module way back in 2000. And it was a rudimentary, fas type deal.

So it's probably safe to assume that even back in 2000 business had a standard far surpassing basic databases.
After all, every user had to be kept content when they picked up their phone and checked their credit.

It would have to be accurate on rates, duration, time call made, number dialled, or you'd wake up one morning after topping up 30 and find you have 4.80 left. Because costs from five randomers calling priest chat last week were attributed to your account.

And esat/eircom would probably have to have had the facilities to check balances against complaints from people saying 'I never used my phone and my credits gone'.
So the means to quickly trawl calls made with databases would likely have been there.

The tax man would probably require it too. So you couldn't say oh we connected 3 calls this quarter and made a gross profit of 20 cent.
Nope, record those business transactions. Prove your turnover.

Your really rambling now

yes it's possible to determine and cross check each and every call that was made in that area that night.

But it's a monumental effort.

Take all the calls on pre pay or registered pay as you go that happened within the time-frame, could be hundreds.

Each and every one would have to be investigated and eliminated or followed up.

Then take your suggestion of building a profile.
Again takes a huge manpower effort to follow up on an results a database might give you.

All for a adult missing person case, with no criminal element ?

dubstarr

The phone being looked in to would only work if they had an idea who the MIB was.

Im sure the guards would have to go to court and have a very good reason to look at that data.And in that area alone there could be hundreds of phones pinging ihe nearest mast.That would be a huge undertaking.Like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Fiftyfilthy

smelly sock wrote: »

Probably nothing of note you would assume.

Still think any communication should be released in the media between them no matter how innocuous

Dwarf.Shortage

dubstarr wrote: »

How likely is all your scenerios or how likely is mone.Statistically the last person to see someone alive is the person that doen the crime.

Plus how could you not realise the person you where talking to,in now missing.
And the amount of coverage the case got,you would have to be on Mars or under a rock.

This is a non statement in a murder case, unless there's lads going around murdering people with their eyes closed.

dubstarr

Dwarf.Shortage wrote: »

This is a non statement in a murder case, unless there's lads going around murdering people with their eyes closed.

Well until the MIB comes forward,he was the last one to see him as far as we know.

Dwarf.Shortage

dubstarr wrote: »

Well until the MIB comes forward,he was the last one to see him as far as we know.

My point is we don't know it's a murder case.

If it is yeah of course MIB is in the frame, but we don't know that Trevor didn't end up in the Dodder.

First time I read about this case I thought I was dreaming. I went to the same school as Trevor, I was the same age as he was when he disappeared, I was working for BOI and was living in an apartment in Cannon Mews which is just off Haddington Road. Couldn't tell you how many times I'd walked that very route out from town with jars aboard, used to meet the odd brazzer near lad lane but never seen one on Baggot or Haddington.

Such a tragic mystery.

20Wheel

Database. You enter a search enquiry in the database to cross reference calls made at 3:01 and 3:35 (or whatever the times were).

3:01... You get probably high hundreds.

3:35... Again hundreds.

On both lists at 3:01 and 3:35... Laws of probability say you're not getting many.

The computer will do the searching. An industrial quality one even in 2000 would make short work of such an enquiry.

(I could probably design such a search in a spreadsheet from my chair. Not hard at all. An actual IT engineer would barely even have to try)

And if there were records associated with the resulting numbers you can probably prioritise them quite quickly.

Like if you've one number dialling a known local characters number regularly, maybe put that higher up than the one that calls Bray bingo Hall.

If they were willing to have a team dig up chapelizod over the course of days 19 years later, and if they were willing to send CCTV footage to UK experts, then I wouldn't be too quick to rule out they might have got a few detectives to call in to the telecoms companies at some point over the years, and with the authority.

I mean, if it occurred to a randomer on a chat forum...

Fr Tod Umptious

Fiftyfilthy wrote: »

Still think any communication should be released in the media between them no matter how innocuous

To what end ?
Did the colleagues even recall talking to him.
Did they even recall what they said.

Remember Trevor was reported missing Monday afternoon.
So CCTV of MIB would at best be looked at Tuesday morning.
The guys talked to MIB 3am Friday morning.
So it was over 4 days later that they would have been asked,cat the very earliest.

Plus they had been drinking.

I doubt they remembered anything about the conversation.

smelly sock

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

To what end ?
Did the colleagues even recall talking to him.
Did they even recall what they said.

Remember Trevor was reported missing Monday afternoon.
So CCTV of MIB would at best be looked at Tuesday morning.
The guys talked to MIB 3am Friday morning.
So it was over 4 days later that they would have been asked,cat the very earliest.

Plus they had been drinking.

I doubt they remembered anything about the conversation.

And just to add the original VHS CCTV was practically useless in terms of identifying anyone. The only way Trevor was really ID,d was by the umbrella.

Fiftyfilthy

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

To what end ?
Did the colleagues even recall talking to him.
Did they even recall what they said.

Remember Trevor was reported missing Monday afternoon.
So CCTV of MIB would at best be looked at Tuesday morning.
The guys talked to MIB 3am Friday morning.
So it was over 4 days later that they would have been asked,cat the very earliest.

Plus they had been drinking.

I doubt they remembered anything about the conversation.

I disagree. My memory is very sharp in general , even with a few pints

If my friend went missing and i was asked a few days later or a few weeks later, I’d either remember entirely the chat or most of it at least

Oh yeah, there was a shifter standing at the gates and he made small talk by saying ...


Garda could release the type of chat the guy initiated and it might jog someone else’s memory. Oh yes I remember a week before etc being approached by a guy similar in that area and he initiated the same conversation

That’s all it takes sometimes to get new information

As you say, they could just have been so drunk they couldn’t remember anything , not a thing. Shame then

dubstarr

Dwarf.Shortage wrote: »

My point is we don't know it's a murder case.

If it is yeah of course MIB is in the frame, but we don't know that Trevor didn't end up in the Dodder.

First time I read about this case I thought I was dreaming. I went to the same school as Trevor, I was the same age as he was when he disappeared, I was working for BOI and was living in an apartment in Cannon Mews which is just off Haddington Road. Couldn't tell you how many times I'd walked that very route out from town with jars aboard, used to meet the odd brazzer near lad lane but never seen one on Baggot or Haddington.

Such a tragic mystery.

Which is why teh MIB is so important.Hes the missing link.If he came forward he could be discounted.Maybe he say something and doesnt realise its important.

I will say it again.Someone somewhere has that little nugget of information that would blow the case wide open.

Fr Tod Umptious

20Wheel wrote: »

Database. You enter a search enquiry in the database to cross reference calls made at 3:01 and 3:35 (or whatever the times were).

3:01... You get probably high hundreds.

3:35... Again hundreds.

On both lists at 3:01 and 3:35... Laws of probability say you're not getting many.

The computer will do the searching. An industrial quality one even in 2000 would make short work of such an enquiry.

(I could probably design such a search in a spreadsheet from my chair. Not hard at all. An actual IT engineer would barely even have to try)

And if there were records associated with the resulting numbers you can probably prioritise them quite quickly.

Like if you've one number dialling a known local characters number regularly, maybe put that higher up than the one that calls Bray bingo Hall.

If they were willing to have a team dig up chapelizod over the course of days 19 years later, and if they were willing to send CCTV footage to UK experts, then I wouldn't be too quick to rule out they might have got a few detectives to call in to the telecoms companies at some point over the years, and with the authority.

I mean, if it occurred to a randomer on a chat forum...

There is no central database for what you are looking for.

The effort involved in filtering out all the numbers that were in use during that time and investigating each and every one is mammoth.

Fiftyfilthy

smelly sock wrote: »

And just to add the original VHS CCTV was practically useless in terms of identifying anyone. The only way Trevor was really ID,d was by the umbrella.

The guy doesn’t need to be identified from the cctv regarding this approach.

I’m talking about the conversation, no matter how trivial it was.

The small talk could be the same he has used on others in that area ( if he is in fact potentially dodgy that some are assuming )

My point is, it’s easy to dismiss alternative lines but all lines of enquiries should be looked into.

Unless there really is a new credible witness or a different approach taken, this case will never be solved

Fr Tod Umptious

Fiftyfilthy wrote: »

I disagree. My memory is very sharp in general , even with a few pints

If my friend went missing and i was asked a few days later or a few weeks later, I’d either remember entirely the chat or most of it at least

Oh yeah, there was a shifter standing at the gates and he made small talk by saying ...


Garda could release the type of chat the guy initiated and it might jog someone else’s memory. Oh yes I remember a week before etc being approached by a guy similar in that area and he initiated the same conversation

That’s all it takes sometimes to get new information

As you say, they could just have been so drunk they couldn’t remember anything , not a thing. Shame then

But that's the thing about MIB - IMO he's totally and utterly inconsequential.
He's not some shifter as you call him

Both Trevor and his colleagues talk to him.
Trevor do not mention him to they guy he talked to in the office.
The colleagues talked to him but have nothing else to offer.
I'm sure the (now deceased) security guard was also asked about him but had nothing interesting to offer either.

smelly sock

Fiftyfilthy wrote: »

The guy doesn’t need to be identified from the cctv regarding this approach.

I’m talking about the conversation, no matter how trivial it was.

The small talk could be the same he has used on others in that area ( if he is in fact potentially dodgy that some are assuming )

My point is, it’s easy to dismiss alternative lines but all lines of enquiries should be looked into.

Unless there really is a new credible witness or a different approach taken, this case will never be solved

Doubt if the work mates didnt find this guy remarkable in any way its because he wasnt.

tdf7187

dubstarr wrote: »

Which is why teh MIB is so important.Hes the missing link.If he came forward he could be discounted.Maybe he say something and doesnt realise its important.

I will say it again.Someone somewhere has that little nugget of information that would blow the case wide open.

I think what you and some other posters don't realise is that the article I posted in the OP is claiming that a new witness HAS come forward. Now granted, it's from the Indo, so a lot of people will take it with a pinch of salt.

Fiftyfilthy

smelly sock wrote: »

Doubt if the work mates didnt find this guy remarkable in any way its because he wasnt.

Doesn’t need to be remarkable, just the conversation.

They can’t have been that drunk by the time they knew they had to call past to collect their gym bag

I guess some people have poor memories , just unfortunate.

tdf7187

smelly sock wrote: »

Doubt if the work mates didnt find this guy remarkable in any way its because he wasnt.

Seriously? You find nothing odd about his behaviour?

smelly sock

tdf7187 wrote: »

Seriously? You find nothing odd about his behaviour?

No. Not really. I just dont think it adds up to TD been missing for this long.

smelly sock

tdf7187 wrote: »

Seriously? You find nothing odd about his behaviour?

I find TDs behaviour more odd.

tdf7187

smelly sock wrote: »

No. Not really. I just dont think it adds up to TD been missing for this long.

Well, I disagree. There are potential non-sinister explanations for his behaviour - for example, he could have been a taxi driver that was breaking the strike and knowing there were plenty of offices in the area & that it was Xmas party season, hung around the entrance to one hoping to get a fare there. But if the MIB is the same person that followed Trevor, then it's hard to see a non-sinister rationale.

tdf7187

smelly sock wrote: »

I find TDs behaviour more odd.

Over to my block list with you so.

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But that's the thing about MIB - IMO he's totally and utterly inconsequential.
He's not some shifter as you call him

Both Trevor and his colleagues talk to him.
Trevor do not mention him to they guy he talked to in the office.
The colleagues talked to him but have nothing else to offer.
I'm sure the (now deceased) security guard was also asked about him but had nothing interesting to offer either.

you seem well read on the topic, waht do you think happened if you had to guess?

i can't believe you consider the MIB inconsequential

20Wheel

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

There is no central database for what you are looking for.

The effort involved in filtering out all the numbers that were in use during that time and investigating each and every one is mammoth.

Mammoth to who?... a human with a pencil? Yeah.
An industrial computer. Hardly

I doubt there was no database of calls made. (maybe an expert in telecoms can clarify).

I'd imagine that as appropriate charges must be made to all customers accouts, that its the telecoms companys very duty to record which account called which account and when for how long.
And then to update the account balances.

If not you'd call 171, press option 2 and get an automated voice going your account balance is... 'Hmm ehh, minus 4, carry the 5, ehh was it you that called 123456 a few seconds ago, shyte, hang on'.


And no, you're not going to get many phones connecting at both recorded times. The odds of calling at 1 given time in 24 hours are reasonably small, the odds of calling at 1 given time and then again at another precise time out of the 24 hours available must be pretty damn remote.
Even with all the phones out there you're going to end up with a small list.

Probably something like (1/[24*60] ) * (1/[24*60] ) if dealing with minutes. I don't know, get me Rachel Riley.

And a mathematician too.

Fiftyfilthy

I used the word shifter as anyone standing outside a building for 30 mins on a stormy morning with no clear explanation is shifty. Standing beside someone who then goes missing mins later is shifty

Thus a shifter

smelly sock

Fiftyfilthy wrote: »

I used the word shifter as anyone standing outside a building for 30 mins on a stormy morning with no clear explanation is shifty. Standing beside someone who then goes missing mins later is shifty

Thus a shifter

No explanation we know of.

Party goer
Friend of someone
Waiting for someone looking for shelter
Homeless guy

All the above is far more logical than a member of a criminal gang hanging around in the pissings if rain to rob some spare change off someone and then kill him. Transport and dispose of a body without a trace in a city centre.

Not buying that as in anyway credible.

smelly sock

tdf7187 wrote: »

Over to my block list with you so.

What??

tdf7187

smelly sock wrote: »

What??

Do you not understand you will get this thread locked if you carry on implying Trevor committed suicide when there is no actual evidence for that.

smelly sock

If i was shown cctv of myself from 17 year ago which was at best blurry and hard to make out i dont think i could make myself out. Especially in the pouring rain and dark.

Fiftyfilthy

smelly sock wrote: »

If i was shown cctv of myself from 17 year ago which was at best blurry and hard to make out i dont think i could make myself out. Especially in the pouring rain and dark.

Unless I frequented the gates of buildings at 3:30am in the pouring rain in the red light district all the time then I would have no trouble in recalling that night