Compiling a list of FG poor performance

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It was Ferriter explaining the thinking of the Expert Group and I will have to check, but I think he said Flanagan was told this in discussions as well.

All Flanagan had to say about it when asked was: 'Well I am not going to lock horns with Dr. Ferriter on this'.

You may have missed this post. But it backs up Ferriter's version:

I have no doubt that Ferriter said what he said, but the Expert Group from the start that individual members did not speak for the group.

blanch152 wrote: »

I still can't find any reference to your claim about an academic review in the documentation, did you make it up, or did you just rely on the views of one member of the group?

Remember the initial statement I linked to? It states quite clearly:

"Any ideas of views that we express in that personal professional capacity should not be taken as representing the views of the Advisory Group".

Either you, or less likely Ferriter, have forgotten that.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

I have no doubt that Ferriter said what he said, but the Expert Group from the start that individual members did not speak for the group.

What do you mean here?

It's there in black and white...the RIC/DMP where not considered to be 'significant themes or events' that warranted a 'formal state occasion'.

Regardless of what Ferriter had to say, if you give them a 'state occasion' you are going outside the recommendations of the EG. Pretty simple stuff.
Hence Leo, Charlie and Madigan (those whom we know were involved in this) having to own this. They stepped it up. Nobody else. And further, Flanagan tried to hide behind the EG. Ferriter wouldn't let him. Embarrassing stuff for the Justice Minister.

retalivity

I didnt think id see a worse shower of incompetent tds than late 00's FF produced, but FG have really outdone them - such luminaries like the fraudsters Bailey & Farrell, incompetents like Humphries & Mary mitchell o'connor, vain show ponies like varadkar and madigan, 'politicians' completely out of their depth like harris and eoghan murphy, and now flanagan, doddering about screaming about the black and tans like a lost OO member visiting mount st brodge that took a wrong turn and ended up minister for justice. Would nearly make you long for the days of Cowen, Lenihan, O'Dea et al. NEARLY.

That said, who the hell am i supposed to vote for in the election?
Im the prime FG target, but they are an absolute shower, for the reasons given above.
Will not vote for FF as i remember 10+ yrs ago, MM was part of the bloody cabinet ffs. L
abour, a mix of good intentions and champagne socialists, with everything negotiable if they have a sniff of power.
Greens - see avove
SF - at this stage id almost like to see them in power so as to atop whinging fromthe opposition. Still cant bring myself to vote for them though.
Sd - RS & CM are exemplary politicians, however they lost me with the refugee and too woke nonsense
PBP - meh
Independenta - meh again

is_that_so

retalivity wrote: »

I didnt think id see a worse shower of incompetent tds than late 00's FF produced, but FG have really outdone them - such luminaries like the fraudsters Bailey & Farrell, incompetents like Humphries & Mary mitchell o'connor, vain show ponies like varadkar and madigan, 'politicians' completely out of their depth like harris and eoghan murphy, and now flanagan, doddering about screaming about the black and tans like a lost OO member visiting mount st brodge that took a wrong turn and ended up minister for justice. Would nearly make you long for the days of Cowen, Lenihan, O'Dea et al. NEARLY.

That said, who the hell am i supposed to vote for in the election?
Im the prime FG target, but they are an absolute shower, for the reasons given above.
Will not vote for FF as i remember 10+ yrs ago, MM was part of the bloody cabinet ffs. L
abour, a mix of good intentions and champagne socialists, with everything negotiable if they have a sniff of power.
Greens - see avove
SF - at this stage id almost like to see them in power so as to atop whinging fromthe opposition. Still cant bring myself to vote for them though.
Sd - RS & CM are exemplary politicians, however they lost me with the refugee and too woke nonsense
PBP - meh
Independenta - meh again

Put party labels aside and look at your own local TDs or potential TDs and consider which of them you believe deserve a vote. At least you may feel you're well represented. Another way of a sort of "none of the above" is to pick the person least likely to get elected and start with the lowest possible preferences for the ones you dislike most and work backwards.

James Brown

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Still digging in on this one?

Ferriter was explaining what was meant. Like Flanagan you are clearly not able to read a document.

Note page 4 which says the EG has outlined 'specific events and themes' as 'particularly significant in Appendix A. The group recommends a 3 tier approach for these events comprising a limited number of formal state occasions'....etc etc.

Nowhere in APPENDIX A is the RIC/DMP mentioned as a significant theme or event.

Yet FG decided (without consulting anyone it seems) to have 'a formal state occasion for the RIC/DMP.

https://www.decadeofcentenaries.com/wp-content/uploads/publications/Guidance2018/Guidance2018/index.html

It's typical FG diversion. Flanagan, by all accounts, was the driving force. But he seemingly isn't responsible for his own actions, if we are to believe Fine Gael. It was the inferred suggestion by the academic, which the academic denies making what did the thing!

charlie14

is_that_so wrote: »

Put party labels aside and look at your own local TDs or potential TDs and consider which of them you believe deserve a vote. At least you may feel you're well represented. Another way of a sort of "none of the above" is to pick the person least likely to get elected and start with the lowest possible preferences for the ones you dislike most and work backwards.

There is another consideration.
Consider when it comes to legislation who will vote the way you wish and who will vote how they are told by the party whips.

is_that_so

charlie14 wrote: »

There is another consideration.
Consider when it comes to legislation who will vote the way you wish and who will vote how they are told by the party whips.

Yeah, all kinds of ways to show your feelings/ire! Big of fan of people voting regardless.

PhilOssophy

Paul Kehoe, I don't know if a more useless waste of space has ever set foot in Dail Eireann.

charlie14

Matt Barrett wrote: »

It's typical FG diversion. Flanagan, by all accounts, was the driving force. But he seemingly isn't responsible for his own actions, if we are to believe Fine Gael. It was the inferred suggestion by the academic, which the academic denies making what did the thing!

Seems it was going ahead with that all party committee expressing reservations and the government never getting back to them.
A FG solo run that went face first into a wall of eggs.

Idbatterim

retalivity wrote: »

I didnt think id see a worse shower of incompetent tds than late 00's FF produced, but FG have really outdone them - such luminaries like the fraudsters Bailey & Farrell, incompetents like Humphries & Mary mitchell o'connor, vain show ponies like varadkar and madigan, 'politicians' completely out of their depth like harris and eoghan murphy, and now flanagan, doddering about screaming about the black and tans like a lost OO member visiting mount st brodge that took a wrong turn and ended up minister for justice. Would nearly make you long for the days of Cowen, Lenihan, O'Dea et al. NEARLY.

That said, who the hell am i supposed to vote for in the election?
Im the prime FG target, but they are an absolute shower, for the reasons given above.
Will not vote for FF as i remember 10+ yrs ago, MM was part of the bloody cabinet ffs. L
abour, a mix of good intentions and champagne socialists, with everything negotiable if they have a sniff of power.
Greens - see avove
SF - at this stage id almost like to see them in power so as to atop whinging fromthe opposition. Still cant bring myself to vote for them though.
Sd - RS & CM are exemplary politicians, however they lost me with the refugee and too woke nonsense
PBP - meh
Independenta - meh again

great post and I echo these sentiments! you would also think I would be the prime FG target. The last two elections I voted for them. Say you can dream up a new political party to vote for, what are the few key criteria, that you would want?

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/majority-of-ric-men-and-ira-opponents-born-on-the-same-land-1.4133186

A very reasonable opinion piece in the Irish Times.

"While there are legitimate questions for the Government about how the ceremony was imagined, discussed and organised, these should not blind us to the powerful truth – the majority of RIC men and their IRA opponents were born on and grew up to love the same land. They fought for different visions of Ireland but acknowledging the love they shared would be a good place to start."

Is that the Green stance? They've been very quiet.
They loved a land. One set wanted self governing and freedom, the other wanted to murder them for it. You don't need celebrate the Gestapo to be pals with the Germans.

blanch152 wrote: »

I doubt the Irish Times columnists read these threads, but this extract from the column was eerily accurate:

"The age of social media does the opposite. Slogans replace intelligent appraisal. We risk descending into the arid wilderness of name calling. To ask that we take a broader view or tolerate an opposing idea does not merit recourse to catch-calls like West Brit or Blueshirt."

I am sure there are a few other posts I could reference from the hysteria on this and other threads.

Hysteria? No, calling out a farce. All the blueshirt hyperbole won't cover this latest gaffe from the Leo Varadkar K.B.E. led Fine Gael.
My comment was a joke referencing the ludicrous ridiculousness of the apologists lamenting and nostalgic for bloody British rule because a few like themselves saw no harm in it. 'Sure 'tis was 100 years ago begorrah', indeed but what kind of idiot would have the Irish state celebrate butchers and thugs who murdered to keep that state from ever existing?
The civil war is something were you might say, "opponents were born on and grew up to love the same land. They fought for different visions of Ireland but acknowledging the love they shared would be a good place to start".
We are all from those people, they made the state we have today.
The RIC/Tans were there to suppress any idea of an Irish state and police for an occupying force.
Flanagan was ignorant and a disgrace trying to equate celebrating the RIC like choosing not to do so was some how immoral. And he's the FG arrogance to try push it at a later date. He should f*** off out of it. A journo said Leo was a 'latte Nationalist', well he's more a Empire nostalgist as is a good number of his party IMO.

James Brown

Snow Garden wrote: »

FF will get an election called very soon. I expect it to be held in February.

Easter might work

James Brown

is_that_so wrote: »

Clearly the opinion of voters too given how few of them will vote outside of the traditional destination of votes. I'd include FF/FG and Labour plus the Greens as being without risk. Pity the SDs were never a proper party but they will still be happy to be part of a tail.

Talk about short memories :rolleyes:

#recession
#cronyism
#quango
#lookingafterourown
#inappropriatebehaviour
#sweetdeal

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Paul Kehoe, I don't know if a more useless waste of space has ever set foot in Dail Eireann.

Dara Murphy, although setting foot in the Dail was not his forte.

is_that_so

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Talk about short memories :rolleyes:

Insulting voters is really not much of a strategy! Roll your eyes all you want, the bulk of the next government will come out of that. You're into the increasingly politically deranged the further away from these you go but you are free to vote that way if you choose. Nobody will judge you for it.:)

James Brown

is_that_so wrote: »

Insulting voters is really not much of a strategy! Roll your eyes all you want, the bulk of the next government will come out of that. You're into the increasingly politically deranged the further away from these you go but you are free to vote that way if you choose. Nobody will judge you for it.:)

Who's insulting voters? I'll roll my eyes when I read nonsense such as 'without risk'. 'Without risk' of what exactly? They've national crises, cronyism and economic meltdown covered.
'Them others would be worser', that's the sound advice? :rolleyes:

is_that_so

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Who's insulting voters? I'll roll my eyes when I read nonsense such as 'without risk'. Without risk of what exactly? They've national crises and economic meltdown covered.
'Them other would be worser', that's the sound advice

You've dismissed the vast bulk of voters choices in your sneering about short memories. 2007-2011 was not a good period for any country and politicians dropped the ball in lots of ways. Risk is always there, and on balance they are the least likely to engage in policies that will penalise large swathes of the population and won't blow any spare cash on "free" services. Point out one of "them others" who would be a positive choice.

James Brown

is_that_so wrote: »

You've dismissed the vast bulk of voters choices in your sneering about short memories. 2007-2011 was not a good period for any country and politicians dropped the ball in lots of ways. Risk is always there, and on balance they are the least likely to engage in policies that will penalise large swathes of the population and won't blow any spare cash on "free" services. Point out one of "them others" who would be a positive choice.

No, I dismissed your idea that FF/FG constitute parties 'without risk'.
Many who vote for these parties know what they are, unlikely they would catagorise either as being 'without risk'.

You what? FF are most likely to do a giveaway budget and cause a crash while lining their pockets and FG are most likely to exacerbate national crises while 'looking after their own' and lining their pockets.

You said these parties were 'without risk'. Just rolling my eyes at that.
As for the others, I don't know. We do know that the only way 'without risk' works for FF/FG is in the context that we know what they do and will continue to do.

Idbatterim

https://www.thejournal.ie/election-2020-4958135-Jan2020/

housing would be my biggest concern, if FF do the Special Saver Scheme which will help tenants save up a deposit. as proposed in the above link, I would be fully supportive €1.74 billion towards working people rather than sent up in smoke on welfare increases etc :rolleyes:

James Brown

Idbatterim wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/election-2020-4958135-Jan2020/

housing would be my biggest concern, if FF do the Special Saver Scheme which will help tenants save up a deposit. as proposed in the above link, I would be fully supportive €1.74 billion towards working people rather than sent up in smoke on welfare increases etc :rolleyes:

Same diff IMO. Giving tax payer aid to tax payers so they can help keep private profits high. The state be it FF or FG needs to cut that out.

Idbatterim

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Same diff IMO. Giving tax payer aid to tax payers so they can help keep private profits high. The state be it FF or FG needs to cut that out.

it might not be perfect, but its better than the current set up... FG are risking losing power and housing is a big part of that, even faced with this, they still wont change ideology...

caff

Idbatterim wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/election-2020-4958135-Jan2020/

housing would be my biggest concern, if FF do the Special Saver Scheme which will help tenants save up a deposit. as proposed in the above link, I would be fully supportive €1.74 billion towards working people rather than sent up in smoke on welfare increases etc :rolleyes:

Still doesn't address allowing people enough disposable income to save in the first place. Everything is absorbed by rent increases.
The next government needs to think seriously about replacing rates and property tax with a straight Land value tax to encourage more effecient land use
Then you have businesses shutting down all over the country due to insurance increases.

James Brown

Idbatterim wrote: »

it might not be perfect, but its better than the current set up... FG are risking losing power and housing is a big part of that, even faced with this, they still wont change ideology...

It might be better but the bottom will fall out eventually. Tax payers supporting tax payers is great unless the numbers get out of control as they are doing.

Idbatterim

my strategy would be, at the very least, reducing the cost of apartment building, its simply way too high. Now this might just result in increasing builder margins. They government should possibly look at abolishing stamp duty for FTB, certainly if the property is say under 400k ...

there is no way any party here, will implement a proper system. Which in my opinion, would be the states builds large amount of housing, BUT it is never sold off and you pan an appropriate rent for it, circa 20-30% of income etc and it is open to everyone...

its all well and good saying build more social housing, but we could afford to built a hell of a lot more state built housing, if those currently in it, actually paid a reasonable amount for it, not the current pittance that they pay ,,, or dont pay...

James Brown

Idbatterim wrote: »

my strategy would be, at the very least, reducing the cost of apartment building, its simply way too high. Now this might just result in increasing builder margins. They government should possibly look at abolishing stamp duty for FTB, certainly if the property is say under 400k ...

there is no way any party here, will implement a proper system. Which in my opinion, would be the states builds large amount of housing, BUT it is never sold off and you pan an appropriate rent for it, circa 20-30% of income etc and it is open to everyone...

its all well and good saying build more social housing, but we could afford to built a hell of a lot more state built housing, if those currently in it, actually paid a reasonable amount for it, not the current pittance that they pay ,,, or dont pay...

Makes no difference. We either lease to house them, buy to house them or build to house them. They're going to be housed. I'd suggest coming down heavy on any defaulters, dock welfare or salary from source.

Idbatterim

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Makes no difference. We either lease to house them, buy to house them or build to house them. They're going to be housed. I'd suggest coming down heavy on any defaulters, dock welfare or salary from source.

I would love to see the bank statements of those who dont pay, full out absolute luxuries and sh*te no doubt. No doubt there is enough for plenty of takeaways and alcohol, expensive tv and broadband packages etc... The system here is just rotten to the core and people will take advantage, its human nature

James Brown

Idbatterim wrote: »

I would love to see the bank statements of those who dont pay, full out absolute luxuries and sh*te no doubt. No doubt there is enough for plenty of takeaways and alcohol, expensive tv and broadband packages etc... The system here is just rotten to the core and people will take advantage, its human nature

Either way rent is assessed based on income, no excuses not to pay and IMO no excuses not to put the hammer on those who don't.

James Brown

What a nasty ignorant man:

United Ireland further away after RIC controversy - Taoiseach
Mr Varadkar said the controversy was a setback for unity and conciliation.

He also said lessons can be learned from it and said that perhaps things could have been handled differently.

He said he regretted too that some elements in the opposition chose to misrepresent what was actually being planned.
https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2020/0108/1105145-united-ireland-ric/

Just because people don't want to give undue respect to an historic organisation and what it represents does not mean they are unwilling to make concessions to people today. I can tell you the black and tans did and do not represent decent people on either political divide or Irish sea for that matter and to suggest we should respect all or none is a con. What a dishonest and ignorant Taoiseach. Flanagan should be put out to pasture.

McMurphy

https://twitter.com/oconnellhugh/status/1214586968711020549?s=09

blanch152

blanch152 wrote: »

Interesting, your post mentions spin merchants, but you then talk about the commemoration of Black&Tans which was never part of the plan.

This has been an eye-opener into the hate bubbling beneath the surface of our society. Many of the people who are outraged by this and spitting venom are the same people who would be first to attend a Bobby Sands commemoration. Them-ums is a part of our society as much as the North.

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2020/0108/1105145-united-ireland-ric/

So Leo seems to have the same analysis as I do of the hypocritical objections to the commemoration.

<snip>

On a serious note, the divisive language from Mary-Lou will do nothing to bring about reconciliation and the objective of Article 3 of the Constitution "to unite
all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland" has been setback by decades if we can only commemorate those of one side. Nauseating stuff from the Sinn Fein leader.

It seems that Ireland has caught the Brexit and Trump infection with the reaction to this decision. The poisonous surge of nationalist feeling is a bad portent for the coming election, and I am now fearful of the result. Will be putting money on a SF/FF coalition tomorrow.

https://www.paddypower.com/politics/ireland-next-general-election

Paddy Power not offering odds on it though, just on next Taoiseach.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2020/0108/1105145-united-ireland-ric/

So Leo seems to have the same analysis as I do of the hypocritical objections to the commemoration.

Uncanny the way I did that, wasn't it:D:D, will only feed the conspiracy theories of FG bots, where is that fella gone who used to post pics of FG hacks in a room on computers, he would love this:D:D. Maybe someone could start a thread in Feedback about it.

On a serious note, the divisive language from Mary-Lou will do nothing to bring about reconciliation and the objective of Article 3 of the Constitution "to unite
all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland" has been setback by decades if we can only commemorate those of one side. Nauseating stuff from the Sinn Fein leader.

It seems that Ireland has caught the Brexit and Trump infection with the reaction to this decision. The poisonous surge of nationalist feeling is a bad portent for the coming election, and I am now fearful of the result. Will be putting money on a SF/FF coalition tomorrow.

https://www.paddypower.com/politics/ireland-next-general-election

Paddy Power not offering odds on it though, just on next Taoiseach.

If Mary Lou was divisive then Leo united the country.

48 hours is all it took to turn him into a petulant clown. 'Youse won't get your ice cream if you don't eat your greens'.