Compiling a list of FG poor performance

Loafing Oaf

is_that_so wrote: »

Only a party that can get enough votes from the centre is an alternative. FG and the chameleons of FF will combine to ensure that never happens.

I remain to be convinced that there is a deep-seated and widespread desire for such an alternative among centrist and right-leaning voters. They may grumble loudly about which of FF/FG is in power at any time but somehow can't envisage voting for anybody else...

Idbatterim

Snow Garden wrote: »

Same. They had a massive majority and opportunity in 2011 and no credible opposition. Blew it spectacularly.
They achieved very very little of substance.

they have achieved rip off rents and property prices again, their biggest victory! benefits all of them directly, their mates, the banks, nama, many of their voters also feel its a great thing!

Idbatterim

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

I remain to be convinced that there is a deep-seated and widespread desire for such an alternative among centrist and right-leaning voters. They may grumble loudly about which of FF/FG is in power at any time but somehow can't envisage voting for anybody else...

put a credible new party together, with a vocal front man, not a yes man. Someone with actual real world business experience, not the morons that we have to currently choose from. Someone for USC abolition and affordable accommodation costs for workers as two main pillars!

Socially liberal, of course, its all the rage

blanch152

Idbatterim wrote: »

put a credible new party together, with a vocal front man, not a yes man. Someone with actual real world business experience, not the morons that we have to currently choose from. Someone for USC abolition and affordable accommodation costs for workers as two main pillars!

Socially liberal, of course, its all the rage

I am always bemused by those who call for USC abolition as a benefit for workers.

When you read the revenue document on the USC, you can see that it hits landlords, company directors, the self-employed and areas like share options harder than income tax does, so if you are an ordinary worker, USC is a better tax than income tax.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/tax-professionals/tdm/income-tax-capital-gains-tax-corporation-tax/part-18d/18D-00-01.pdf

Loafing Oaf

Idbatterim wrote: »

put a credible new party together, with a vocal front man, not a yes man. Someone with actual real world business experience, not the morons that we have to currently choose from. Someone for USC abolition and affordable accommodation costs for workers as two main pillars!

Socially liberal, of course, its all the rage

Isn't the failure of anybody to attempt to establish such a party in the decade since the demise of the PDs a verdict on the level of demand for it?

Idbatterim

blanch152 wrote: »

I am always bemused by those who call for USC abolition as a benefit for workers.

When you read the revenue document on the USC, you can see that it hits landlords, company directors, the self-employed and areas like share options harder than income tax does, so if you are an ordinary worker, USC is a better tax than income tax.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/tax-professionals/tdm/income-tax-capital-gains-tax-corporation-tax/part-18d/18D-00-01.pdf

oh no, I get that. But there's off the wall waste and welfare here. Why should living standards of many workers be similar or worse than those on welfare? abolish it...

Idbatterim

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Isn't the failure of anybody to attempt to establish such a party in the decade since the demise of the PDs a verdict on the level of demand for it?

I dont think so, different times. Politics here has never been worse and its screaming out for a new centre right party in my opinion. But dont fear! They'd only get 15-20% of the vote, they will be going in with the other clowns to pull them over to the left, so we will get the much loved Irish fudge!

No chance of radical overhauls of anything etc!

Loafing Oaf

Idbatterim wrote: »

I dont think so, different times. Politics here has never been worse and its screaming out for a new centre right party in my opinion.

But have you anything to back up that opinion, beyond a handful of blowhards on the Internet? The voters certainly don't seem to be screaming out for Renua; I know they're not 'centre right' in the sense you favour, but surely if people were as disaffected with the 'establishment as you claim, they'd be casting a protest vote for anything remotely 'right wing'.

blanch152

Idbatterim wrote: »

oh no, I get that. But there's off the wall waste and welfare here. Why should living standards of many workers be similar or worse than those on welfare? abolish it...

I would much prefer to abolish income tax and keep USC and increase it, it is a much fairer tax.

Idbatterim

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

But have you anything to back up that opinion, beyond a handful of blowhards on the Internet? The voters certainly don't seem to be screaming out for Renua; I know they're not 'centre right' in the sense you favour, but surely if people were as disaffected with the 'establishment as you claim, they'd be casting a protest vote for anything remotely 'right wing'.

how many are being screwed by rip off property prices? a huge amount. I bring up usc abolition, because FG said they would abolish it and it is constantly brought up by the masses on the likes of the journal. You would need to be somewhat populists to win enough votes to be relevant. Imagine you say, I'll cut the marginal rate only, which to me, is the only rate that is actually a piss take. How many votes will that win? only rewarding "the rich" on 35k+ ? :rolleyes:

For example, renua wanted a flat tax, makes total sense to me, in hindsight they said, that policy was a mistake, not because it was a bad idea, per se, but because it was too complex for most voters to understand and they were right. Do you know what is a universally hated recession tax and hits everyone? usc....

thats two key areas I would back. they are straightforward. What is going to be done with health? its a black hole. Unless they plan on serious reform, you accept the system and keep funding a black hole or well, there is no alternative given that non of the parties here , will actually do anything about the structural problems with it.

Infrastructure is another key area, during the good times, I would be getting the critical projects up and running as quick as possible, so that if / when the bust comes, they arent first up for the chop, to protect spending on **** for want of a better word...

the abortion issues has come and gone, as it was going too. And instead of many of us having a party to vote for, they are done. due to ONE issue, where they took a position and stuck with it, which you have to admire in irish politics. Where the rat kite flyer vardakar, see's which way the wind blows and goes there...

Many of my suggestions seem a bit mad, but I am dealing with the reality, that this country doesnt do best practice. I am talking about what is actually plausible...

from an environmental perspective. Throw in a diesel ban from 2025 at the latest. Vat reclaimable for business from petrol. glass and plastic bottle return scheme, the amount of plastic bottles littering the country is criminal!

Dytalus

blanch152 wrote: »

I would much prefer to abolish income tax and keep USC and increase it, it is a much fairer tax.

Could you clarify why you think that? I'll admit, I'm more familar on IT than USC, so I've likely missed something. From my understanding of the two they're basically both income tax with different names, the only real difference is the presence of more than two tax brackets for USC.

Which, ideally, our income tax would have too. It's kind of ridiculous someone earning the average wage pays the same higher rate as someone earning a few hundred thousand, and that they pay the same as someone earning a million+.

Idbatterim

Dytalus wrote: »

Could you clarify why you think that? I'll admit, I'm more familar on IT than USC, so I've likely missed something. From my understanding of the two they're basically both income tax with different names, the only real difference is the presence of more than two tax brackets for USC.

Which, ideally, our income tax would have too. It's kind of ridiculous someone earning the average wage pays the same higher rate as someone earning a few hundred thousand, and that they pay the same as someone earning a million+.

paying the same marginal rate, but paying multiple times more into the system and getting nothing extra out of it. In germany and I am sure many other countries, what you get out of the system, unemployment benefit and pension, is based on what you paid in. Here as a high earner, you just get crucified...

blanch152

Dytalus wrote: »

Could you clarify why you think that? I'll admit, I'm more familar on IT than USC, so I've likely missed something. From my understanding of the two they're basically both income tax with different names, the only real difference is the presence of more than two tax brackets for USC.

Which, ideally, our income tax would have too. It's kind of ridiculous someone earning the average wage pays the same higher rate as someone earning a few hundred thousand, and that they pay the same as someone earning a million+.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/tax-professionals/tdm/income-tax-capital-gains-tax-corporation-tax/part-18d/18D-00-01.pdf

There are a number of tweaks to the USC to differentiate it from income tax. In my opinion, those tweaks favour ordinary workers as opposed to the self-employed, landlords, company directors. In addition, many of the income tax avoidance schemes are subject to USC e.g.

"There is no exemption from USC in respect of distributions out of profits or gains on stud and woodland fees, out of income from patent royalties or out of mining profits. Income earned as a writer, composer or artist, profits from the use of woodlands, and income derived from patent royalties and leasing of farmland is also liable to USC."

Landlords don't get reliefs, neither do share dividends or bank interest.

"Any capital allowances due to persons that do not actively carry on a trade are not deductible. Therefore, lessors and other passive investors, such as non-active partners in a partnership trade, must pay USC on gross income before the deduction of capital allowances"

While some ordinary employees avail of those reliefs, most go to the wealthy. USC taxes unearned income in a much better way than income tax.

Dytalus

Idbatterim wrote: »

paying the same marginal rate, but paying multiple times more into the system and getting nothing extra out of it. In germany and I am sure many other countries, what you get out of the system, unemployment benefit and pension, is based on what you paid in. Here as a high earner, you just get crucified...

For unemployment, at least, Germany has a similar system to us. One form of Unemployment for those who have recently lost work (ALG1 in Germany vs Benefit here) and another for long-term unemployed (or those who haven't worked in Germany before - ALG2 vs Allowance). ALG1, like Benefit here, is tied to your previous salary. While yes, there is potential in Germany for much higher unemployment benefit on ALG1 than here, it's not relevant for long-term unemployment. ALG2, like Allowance, is a flate rate for everyone.

Loafing Oaf

Idbatterim wrote: »

how many are being screwed by rip off property prices? a huge amount. I bring up usc abolition, because FG said they would abolish it and it is constantly brought up by the masses on the likes of the journal. You would need to be somewhat populists to win enough votes to be relevant. Imagine you say, I'll cut the marginal rate only, which to me, is the only rate that is actually a piss take. How many votes will that win? only rewarding "the rich" on 35k+ ? :rolleyes:

For example, renua wanted a flat tax, makes total sense to me, in hindsight they said, that policy was a mistake, not because it was a bad idea, per se, but because it was too complex for most voters to understand and they were right. Do you know what is a universally hated recession tax and hits everyone? usc....

thats two key areas I would back. they are straightforward. What is going to be done with health? its a black hole. Unless they plan on serious reform, you accept the system and keep funding a black hole or well, there is no alternative given that non of the parties here , will actually do anything about the structural problems with it.

Infrastructure is another key area, during the good times, I would be getting the critical projects up and running as quick as possible, so that if / when the bust comes, they arent first up for the chop, to protect spending on **** for want of a better word...

the abortion issues has come and gone, as it was going too. And instead of many of us having a party to vote for, they are done. due to ONE issue, where they took a position and stuck with it, which you have to admire in irish politics. Where the rat kite flyer vardakar, see's which way the wind blows and goes there...

Many of my suggestions seem a bit mad, but I am dealing with the reality, that this country doesnt do best practice. I am talking about what is actually plausible...

from an environmental perspective. Throw in a diesel ban from 2025 at the latest. Vat reclaimable for business from petrol. glass and plastic bottle return scheme, the amount of plastic bottles littering the country is criminal!

You know, you might get a lot of centrist/conservative voters to agree with a lot of that if you could sit down and talk to them, but good luck persuading them to vote for anyone other than FF/FG...

Dytalus

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.revenue.ie/en/tax-professionals/tdm/income-tax-capital-gains-tax-corporation-tax/part-18d/18D-00-01.pdf

~Snipped for Space~.

Excellent, thank you for the info.

Other than the removal of self-employment perks (I'm all for tax-breaks for starting up, or investing in, Ireland-based companies to help our own economy become less MNC reliant), that all sounds pretty solid.

I might just be persuaded.

James Brown

Snow Garden wrote: »

Same. They had a massive majority and opportunity in 2011 and no credible opposition. Blew it spectacularly.
They achieved very very little of substance.

The FG'ers hate criticism, but I honestly thought Kenny and chums were going to put their petty self serving ways behind them after the shambles FF left. Said it before Kenny and Varadkar K.B.E. (to an extent), are likely the two largest political wasters in the states history. Great opportunities to start with a clean slate traded in to 'look after their own'. Disheartening and disappointing.

blanch152

Dytalus wrote: »

Excellent, thank you for the info.

Other than the removal of self-employment perks (I'm all for tax-breaks for starting up, or investing in, Ireland-based companies to help our own economy become less MNC reliant), that all sounds pretty solid.

I might just be persuaded.

A few years ago, I did some calculations and reckoned that for every 2% increase in USC rates, that you could cut income tax rates by 3%, allowing for a little revenue buoyancy.

Over time, this would shift investment from tax-efficient areas into more productive areas of the economy.

Plumbthedepths

I wonder is Harris still proud of the job he is doing in Health?


https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/patient-found-with-broken-neck-after-fall-from-trolley-974460.html

Idbatterim

Matt I agree with your point about the wasters and disappointment. There is absolutely no way, that with the established parties, anyone will change anything. If you join those parties, you are obviously just going to provide, more of the same. I think you need a fresh new party, that probably would have enthusiasm and initiative, for a few years at least...

Idbatterim

take a look at this lads there's a special shout out to Varadkar Matt!

https://twitter.com/Mon_The_Hoops81/status/1214254748041449472

James Brown

Idbatterim wrote: »

Matt I agree with your point about the wasters and disappointment. There is absolutely no way, that with the established parties, anyone will change anything. If you join those parties, you are obviously just going to provide, more of the same. I think you need a fresh new party, that probably would have enthusiasm and initiative, for a few years at least...

We've lads telling us you have no interest in being in government unless you join FF/FG and then go on to say there's no options.
FF will have learned nothing from their short time near the bottom of the polls. At least we know where we are with FG.
It would be hard to find a party with a blemish free record however, if anyone of them can muster the ethics and morals to serve the country first they deserve a vote, unfortunately we'll always have FF or FG in for the near future and we must live through the farce of both sadly.
All we can do is vote in good faith and you never know. I don't think I'll live long enough to see FF/FG pay their dues and win my trust or vote.
I'd be happy as Larry for either to prove me wrong and be decent political representatives in it for the country not themselves.

_Kaiser_

This one is pretty simple really.. things are in many ways WORSE Now than they were pre-crash.

Think about it... yes people were spending "free" money they couldn't afford on houses, cars, holidays etc, we had the SSIA giveaway, and full employment with a booming economy (thanks mostly to our export/services dependent economy so that when the global economy is doing well, so are we!) and in the end it was blatently unsustainable and inevitably came to a nasty end!

Now, we are post-crash and back to full employment and a booming economy.. but people can't get mortgages, can barely afford rent (if they can find a place), spend hours in traffic or on trains where people faint regularly from overcrowding.
Then there's the highest ever hospital trolley numbers, record levels of homelessness, small/medium business closing or facing closure because of insurance costs, very high cost of living generally and very poor return for the taxpayer or citizens overall.

Then there's the waste (Children's Hospital, IW, Rural Broadband, oversized printers), the chancers (Swingate, Murphy etc), the never-ending scandals and all the rest from the last 8/9 years!

All of this is on FG's watch. This is why they are a "protest vote" party only elected when FF need a hiding, and only until they make FF electable again - because they prove to be even WORSE when in Government.
Anyone not happy with that or that FF are on course to be the controlling party after the upcoming election should probably take that up with the source of their issue.. their local FG TD!

Idbatterim

Great post Kaiser. Just came across the below , someone nervous about canvassing for fg. I won’t post in that thread , but god help any ff or fg canvassers , who’ll get an earful , they won’t get a word in edge ways and I wouldn’t waste my breath on the other useless fools. But if ffg got enough heat on the doorsteps, it might make them think a little

GoneHome

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

This one is pretty simple really.. things are in many ways WORSE Now than they were pre-crash

Kaiser, while I agree with you to an extent, the points in your post are really "city" based as in I live in rural Co Limerick about 45 minutes from the city, and while things are far from perfect they are a hell of alot better in the past 3 to 4 years in comparison to ten years ago when the crash happened, high employment, good school and community facilities, etc. Also price of houses in this area now are at a realistic level compared to the over-inflated prices during the so called Celtic Tiger, people in this area can now buy a resonably priced house in the area for €150,000 average. All that being said there's no love for Leo or his cohortets especially after the RIC/Black and Tan debacale

NIMAN

so Kaiser, are you supporting the return of a FF Gov to fix all these problems?

suicide_circus

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

I wonder is Harris still proud of the job he is doing in Health?


https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/patient-found-with-broken-neck-after-fall-from-trolley-974460.html

show me a politician in the country who could fix the HSE. No fan of Harris but the health service has been in a jocker since he was in short trousers.

ebbsy

Giving medical cards to all u13s is a terrible idea, longer GP waiting times, more shagged A and E's .

God help FF and FG when they get to my door.

Wanderer78

ebbsy wrote:

God help FF and FG when they get to my door.

FF and fg will be just fine post election, they ll still get the majority of votes between them, and ff will probably stroll back in, with nothing really changing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZexEq5XriN0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZexEq5XriN0