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How to obtain Architect's Cert of Compliance?

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  • 06-12-2019 12:45pm
    #1
    Seregwethrin
    Registered Users Posts: 151 ✭✭


    Hi,

    I am in the process of buying a house but the vendors won't provide the Architect's Certificate of Compliance, they probably don't have it.

    My solicitor insists that is needed and prefers that over Opinion of Compliance which can be obtained by an Architect any time.

    This is a fairly recent building, built on 2003 so it should exist.

    Does anyone know if I can go to a local authority to obtain this in Dublin? Where?

    Thanks


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    #2
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,322 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Seregwethrin wrote: »
    Hi,

    I am in the process of buying a house but the vendors won't provide the Architect's Certificate of Compliance, they probably don't have it.

    My solicitor insists that is needed and prefers that over Opinion of Compliance which can be obtained by an Architect any time.

    This is a fairly recent building, built on 2003 so it should exist.

    Does anyone know if I can go to a local authority to obtain this in Dublin? Where?

    Thanks

    The Vendor has to supply it. Full Stop.
    You cannot get a Certificate of Compliance now unless the person that designed, inspected and certified the works is in a position to offer that Cert.


    Pick a different house if the Vendors are playing this game. What are they hiding?


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    #3
    Seregwethrin
    Registered Users Posts: 151 ✭✭Seregwethrin


    The vendor is a company it seems they recently obtained the place so I was thinking they might not have it...

    This place should have a certificate of compliance in local authorities, no? It should exist somewhere.

    They don't look very keen to sell it, because they are likely to be paid to manage it...

    So, can I enquire an authority and ask for it?


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    #4
    Private Joker
    Registered Users Posts: 627 ✭✭✭Private Joker


    They wouldnt have a certificate of compliance. it was made compulsory under the Building Control Amendment Regulations 2013. When it would have been managed under the BCMS system.

    At best you could obtain an opinion of compliance.


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    #5
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,322 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Seregwethrin wrote: »
    The vendor is a company it seems they recently obtained the place so I was thinking they might not have it...

    That explains why there is none, but this company should obtain an Opinion on Compliance based on visual inspection. That is enough for a mortgage to be drawn down.
    Seregwethrin wrote: »

    This place should have a certificate of compliance in local authorities, no? It should exist somewhere.

    No, that's incorrect. The cert is issued to the Building Owner from the person they engaged to certify the works.
    Seregwethrin wrote: »
    They don't look very keen to sell it, because they are likely to be paid to manage it...

    This is possible too.
    Seregwethrin wrote: »

    So, can I enquire an authority and ask for it?

    No, it would be a useless exercise.
    Private Joker wrote: »
    They wouldnt have a certificate of compliance. it was made compulsory under the Building Control Amendment Regulations 2013. When it would have been managed under the BCMS system.

    At best you could obtain an opinion of compliance.

    BCAR came about from the 1st March 2014.
    Its worth noting even under BCAR, for a one off house, the owner can opt out of the Statutory Completion Cert and can still engage a professional for the cert alone without any involvement from the Building Control Authority.


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    #6
    Seregwethrin
    Registered Users Posts: 151 ✭✭Seregwethrin


    Talked with my bank and they are saying this lack of cert of compliance happens quite often and I can even withdraw the offer without having neither cert of opinion on compliance but it is case by case basis.

    Also, my surveyor said he can provide the opinion on compliance document for a few hundred euro.
    Private Joker wrote: »
    They wouldnt have a certificate of compliance. it was made compulsory under the Building Control Amendment Regulations 2013. When it would have been managed under the BCMS system.

    At best you could obtain an opinion of compliance.

    I talked with my surveyor and he said it wasn't made compulsory under BCAR 2013, it was just made more strict with that like insulation checks etc.

    But if bank got involved at any point in time the private owner might have not provided the cert back to the bank as the bank gets the property back legally.

    So the building built in 2003 should still have some kind of certificate of compliance.
    Do you think this sounds logical to you or are you sure it was made compulsory under BCAR 2013?


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    #7
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,322 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Seregwethrin wrote: »
    Talked with my bank and they are saying this lack of cert of compliance happens quite often and I can even withdraw the offer without having neither cert of opinion on compliance but it is case by case basis.

    Also, my surveyor said he can provide the opinion on compliance document for a few hundred euro.



    I talked with my surveyor and he said it wasn't made compulsory under BCAR 2013, it was just made more strict with that like insulation checks etc.

    But if bank got involved at any point in time the private owner might have not provided the cert back to the bank as the bank gets the property back legally.

    So the building built in 2003 should still have some kind of certificate of compliance.
    Do you think this sounds logical to you or are you sure it was made compulsory under BCAR 2013?

    It was built in 2003.
    Self certification.
    If there was mortgage draw downs then they would have wanted stage payment certificates and thus a cert or opinion of compliance for final draw down.

    Maybe you are not reading the replies properly. There’s no such thing as BCAR 2013.


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    #8
    Seregwethrin
    Registered Users Posts: 151 ✭✭Seregwethrin


    I am reading them thoroughly but please do understand I am not as knowledged in the area as you and trying my best to make sense...

    Thanks for all these replies.

    So my understanding is the situation of the certificate is kinda normal and it shouldn't stop me from buying this property... Right?


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    #9
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,322 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Seregwethrin wrote: »
    I am reading them thoroughly but please do understand I am not as knowledged in the area as you and trying my best to make sense...

    Thanks for all these replies.

    So my understanding is the situation of the certificate is kinda normal and it shouldn't stop me from buying this property... Right?

    No, it is totally abnormal for the purchaser to be considering supplying certificates of compliance for a property they are buying. The vendor should be providing them.


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    #10
    Wilson58
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭Wilson58


    Just purchased a house and had the same issue with the vendor, we insisted on an engineers cert of compliance and the architects cert of compliance following works which were done to the house in 2012. We argued that the onus was on them to provide both as it meant we were covered in the future regarding fire regulations etc. if we wanted to extend. Also just a visual report but better than nothing. Vendor was unhappy as they said it cost 600€ but we would have pulled out without it as if you were to sell again a good solicitor would demand both. Better to be safe than sorry.


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    #11
    Seregwethrin
    Registered Users Posts: 151 ✭✭Seregwethrin


    Wilson58 wrote: »
    we insisted on an engineers cert of compliance and the architects cert of compliance

    So an engineer's compliance and an architect's are different?


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    #12
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,394 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    Seregwethrin wrote: »
    So an engineer's compliance and an architect's are different?

    Not that I am aware of other than an architect's cert doesn't exit. An engineer is the only one that can provide it and they tell architects if their designs comply.


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    #13
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,322 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Wilson58 wrote: »
    Just purchased a house and had the same issue with the vendor, we insisted on an engineers cert of compliance and the architects cert of compliance following works which were done to the house in 2012. We argued that the onus was on them to provide both as it meant we were covered in the future regarding fire regulations etc. if we wanted to extend. Also just a visual report but better than nothing. Vendor was unhappy as they said it cost 600€ but we would have pulled out without it as if you were to sell again a good solicitor would demand both. Better to be safe than sorry.
    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    Not that I am aware of other than an architect's cert doesn't exit. An engineer is the only one that can provide it and they tell architects if their designs comply.

    Both of you guys are getting mixed up.
    A Certificate or Opinion on Compliance can be issued by any competent professional with the relevant PI insurance. To be competent, generally you need to be an Architect, Engineer or Building Surveyor. There are other professions such as Technologists that can issue them subject to experience, qualification and profession titles etc

    A Cert from one is all that’s required. In some cases an architect will get an Engineer to certify Part A (Structure) and then his cert will cover this using the engineers cert as an ancillary cert. there are also Engineers Ireland specific certs for structural compliance on projects where an architect is lead designer.


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    #14
    Wilson58
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭Wilson58


    The Engineers Opinion on Compliance with Building Regulations provided is Form BR SE 9101 and is used where an Architect has been appointed by the vendor for works. The Architects Opinion on Compliance with Building Regulations and Planning Permission then is needed with this. There are lots of Building Regulations which apply to the Architect. The Opinion on Compliance with Planning Permission just requires one sentence confirming that it is exempt.

    An alternative is where there was not an Architect appointed by the vendor and it is Form BR SE 9102. The vendor would now have to get the Engineer to sign off on everything on this form. I hope this is clear as I found the whole thing confusing but our solicitor and surveyor were excellent and insisted that this is how things are done now properly even though some people risk not getting them. We wanted to have them in case we resell or extend.


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    #15
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,322 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Wilson58 wrote: »
    The Engineers Opinion on Compliance with Building Regulations provided is Form BR SE 9101 and is used where an Architect has been appointed by the vendor for works. The Architects Opinion on Compliance with Building Regulations and Planning Permission then is needed with this. There are lots of Building Regulations which apply to the Architect. The Opinion on Compliance with Planning Permission just requires one sentence confirming that it is exempt.

    An alternative is where there was not an Architect appointed by the vendor and it is Form BR SE 9102. The vendor would now have to get the Engineer to sign off on everything on this form. I hope this is clear as I found the whole thing confusing but our solicitor and surveyor were excellent and insisted that this is how things are done now properly even though some people risk not getting them. We wanted to have them in case we resell or extend.

    Always best to get them during the works of course.
    You done the right thing.


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