Query about red light fines

Irishphotodesk

bangkok wrote: »

A gardai on a powertrip no doubt. A joke of a fine in fairness

Please explain how the Garda is on a powertrip, the Garda is simply doing their job, if today is the day they are enforcing cyclists going through red lights then they are entitled and correct to issue the ticket IF a cyclist has gone through a red light, also if the cyclist has not taken care and consideration into account and cannot prove they took this into consideration they can be charged with the offence. Tomorrow the Garda might be enforcing motorists who are driving without seatbelts or yellow box merchants. They don't have the resources to enforce all of the laws all of the time, but when they do... They can and should hammer home to people who break the law, I'm extremely annoyed at the amount of hard shoulder and bus lane drivers I see every day on my commute....skipping past traffic.

To the person who mentioned earlier that it's like being charged with murder and manslaughter , it's an incorrect analogy, a more precise one would be charging a person with possession of a weapon and charging them with murder ... This often happens, but the lesser charge is taken into consideration on conviction of the more substantive issue, in this case if the OP wanted to contest the secondary charge they are right to, as he/she mentions they checked prior to breaking the red light, they could have a judge who is understanding or a judge who won't listen ...that's the gamble if you goto a court and dispute it.

bangkok

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

Please explain how the Garda is on a powertrip, the Garda is simply doing their job, if today is the day they are enforcing cyclists going through red lights then they are entitled and correct to issue the ticket IF a cyclist has gone through a red light, also if the cyclist has not taken care and consideration into account and cannot prove they took this into consideration they can be charged with the offence. Tomorrow the Garda might be enforcing motorists who are driving without seatbelts or yellow box merchants. They don't have the resources to enforce all of the laws all of the time, but when they do... They can and should hammer home to people who break the law, I'm extremely annoyed at the amount of hard shoulder and bus lane drivers I see every day on my commute....skipping past traffic.

To the person who mentioned earlier that it's like being charged with murder and manslaughter , it's an incorrect analogy, a more precise one would be charging a person with possession of a weapon and charging them with murder ... This often happens, but the lesser charge is taken into consideration on conviction of the more substantive issue, in this case if the OP wanted to contest the secondary charge they are right to, as he/she mentions they checked prior to breaking the red light, they could have a judge who is understanding or a judge who won't listen ...that's the gamble if you goto a court and dispute it.

Why dont they crack down on the drug pushers who are all over the city centre who are actually harming other people.

Why doesnt the same guard call to the house of john delaney and arrest for fraud.

Fining a cyclist going about his business and taking care on the road (even going through a red) is a joke imo

St1mpMeister

I've paid both fines as it would have cost me more than €40 to spend a day in court, but I've also made a Freedom of Information request to get the Garda's report to see exactly how he justified the double fine.

If there are blatant falsehoods in the report then I'll take it up with the Ombudsman.

I won't get the €40 back, but it might deter him from being so free with handing out fines if he doesn't want further hassle, but it will also be interesting to see if he refers to the fact I "didn't have a helmet" as one of the offences (at the time he said this was an offence while I was on the Dublin Bike)

Anyway, I paid €40, I might as well get something out of it.

magicbastarder

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

To the person who mentioned earlier that it's like being charged with murder and manslaughter , it's an incorrect analogy, a more precise one would be charging a person with possession of a weapon and charging them with murder

i disagree, either of those on their own is a crime. from what i understand here, the garda explained that the second fine was levied for the exact same offence.

if we were to follow this garda's logic, nearly every single motoring fine levied should be doubled, as not only is the motorist guilty of running a red, or of speeding, etc., but by the same token they would also be guilty of driving without due care and consideration.

Irishphotodesk

bangkok wrote: »

Why dont they crack down on the drug pushers who are all over the city centre who are actually harming other people.

Why doesnt the same guard call to the house of john delaney and arrest for fraud.

Fining a cyclist going about his business and taking care on the road (even going through a red) is a joke imo

First one.... They do, it happens regularly for the street dealers, I have witnessed several people being arrested along the boardwalk and down on the bridge near Christchurch in Dublin in the last month - the problem is that the system and legals involved mean that the process is streamlined to have them back on the streets within hours of arrest, the gardai cannot cope with the amount of street dealers and neither can the system.
If you do the maths on it....we have approx 14,000 actual gardai on the beat, these are split into multiple shifts and there is always going to be a percentage off duty and also sick/injured.... Taking all that into account there are approximately 2500gardai on the streets of this country at any one time, in a country of almost 5million , there simply isn't enough gardai to deal with the criminals.
Please take a guess at how many criminals we have in this country ? I would conservatively say that figure is something between 50-100k - a very low estimate.

Second point - why doesn't the same Garda call to John Delaney and charge him with fraud, a simple thing called due process, gardai dealing with alleged fraud must gather enough evidence to prove that fraud was intentional and that there was material gain, they must also have a complaint from a victim/victims who have been defrauded.
On this one, I would concentrate on the previous accounts filed.... Either the accountants who filed the accounts or the people that provided the information to them are at risk of committing fraud - however, revenue would need to complain to the gardai and initiate an investigation or they would need to review/audit the FAI accounts in order to discover any alleged fraud, if the accounts are fraudulent.... Who created them... The accountants created them but who signs off and is responsible for a company accounts as far as revenue are concerned....the company CEO !!!

Finally you say that fining a cyclist going through a red is a joke... Where do you draw the line in terms of other laws, if everyone obeyed the law the system would work perfectly, one of the main causes of inner city traffic jams are vehicles that block a junction (yellow box) ...are there other laws that you think shouldn't be enforced ? Is stealing ok if you are hungry and don't have any money ? No...stealing is stealing, theft is theft, breaking a red light is .... You guessed it.... Breaking a red light.

Yes.... The gardai could put their resources into the bigger crimes/criminals but if you enforce the smaller ones you have an effect on the people who may be tempted to break the law, im fairly sure the OP and others who have read this thread will have reconsidered cycling through a red light (without checking that there are no gardai around) ... Some cyclists will be more aware that gardai are clamping down on this behaviour and will adjust themselves (for the time being). Remember there are approx 4.8million people in this country that are law obiding... And approx 2500gardai on the street at any one time.
Personally I think the gardai could also use the technology available to them and set up ANPR cameras and CCTV monitoring bus lanes, if the registration plate isn't an authorised taxi/bus a fine should be sent to vehicle owner, this would be a massive time saver for Garda resources and would ensure motorists obey the law in respect of bus lanes, similarly for traffic lights and yellow box junctions... Cameras monitoring and fines issued should be done... But the people that can make these changes won't or can't afford to spend the millions of money required to fix the problem.

Irishphotodesk

magicbastarder wrote: »

i disagree, either of those on their own is a crime. from what i understand here, the garda explained that the second fine was levied for the exact same offence.

if we were to follow this garda's logic, nearly every single motoring fine levied should be doubled, as not only is the motorist guilty of running a red, or of speeding, etc., but by the same token they would also be guilty of driving without due care and consideration.

This is exactly what happens.... Motorists are faced with multiple offences, it has happened after road traffic incidents, more often than not the DPP will direct that the larger offence is the one to charge the person with, sometimes if they plead to an offence the lesser matter will be taken into consideration.

With regards to the offences mentioned.... Is without due care and consideration a separate crime to breaking a red light .... In my opinion... Yes, it is a separate offence and one is not always dependent on the other.

Maybe I should add that I have been working around the legal/judicial system for almost 20years.

Irishphotodesk

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

What do you do when lights won't trigger for a cyclist and there's no cars around?

Dismount walk past the junction and remount...an inconvenience yes, but technically within the law and saves from the potential of a fine.

AndrewJRenko

St1mpMeister wrote: »

I've paid both fines as it would have cost me more than €40 to spend a day in court, but I've also made a Freedom of Information request to get the Garda's report to see exactly how he justified the double fine.

If there are blatant falsehoods in the report then I'll take it up with the Ombudsman.

FOI doesn't apply to Garda operational records, for obvious reasons. If you're not happy with his action, you can take the issue to GSOC anyway. It does look at bit suspect to me.

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

Dismount walk past the junction and remount...an inconvenience yes, but technically within the law and saves from the potential of a fine.

Presumably a driver encountering a stuck red light should do the same and get out and push their car through to save the potential of a fine?

Stark

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Presumably a driver encountering a stuck red light should do the same and get out and push their car through to save the potential of a fine?

Yes, have you learned nothing from Mr. Bean? :pac:

magicbastarder

who is this Mr Bean chap people repeatedly refer to? is he a professional cyclist?

bangkok

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

FOI doesn't apply to Garda operational records, for obvious reasons. If you're not happy with his action, you can take the issue to GSOC anyway. It does look at bit suspect to me.



Presumably a driver encountering a stuck red light should do the same and get out and push their car through to save the potential of a fine?

You are not breaking the law if you get off the bike and walk through a red light

Seth Brundle

magicbastarder wrote: »

who is this Mr Bean chap people repeatedly refer to? is he a professional cyclist?

He is indeed...

Wishbone Ash

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

... but technically within the law ...

What do you mean by 'technically within the law'? There's nothing technical about it. It's perfectly legal.

Eamonnator

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

This is exactly what happens.... Motorists are faced with multiple offences, it has happened after road traffic incidents, more often than not the DPP will direct that the larger offence is the one to charge the person with, sometimes if they plead to an offence the lesser matter will be taken into consideration.

With regards to the offences mentioned.... Is without due care and consideration a separate crime to breaking a red light .... In my opinion... Yes, it is a separate offence and one is not always dependent on the other.

Maybe I should add that I have been working around the legal/judicial system for almost 20years.

Its a pity poor aul St1mpMeister wasn't given this option.

07Lapierre

bangkok wrote: »

Why dont they crack down on the drug pushers who are all over the city centre who are actually harming other people.

Why doesnt the same guard call to the house of john delaney and arrest for fraud.

Fining a cyclist going about his business and taking care on the road (even going through a red) is a joke imo

The flip side to that argument is if cyclists didn’t break the law, the Gardai would be free to go after real criminals!

Irishphotodesk

Eamonnator wrote: »

Its a pity poor aul St1mpMeister wasn't given this option.

I don’t think any person who commits a crime can choose what they are charged with, that’s down to the legal system.

If the matter is referred to the DPP it’s a little more serious than an on the spot fine.

If he opted for the court option he would have the opportunity to argue his point before a judge....with the correct legal advice he could get off with a warning or the second matter taken into consideration, all depends on his legals and the judge of the day.

tomasrojo

I must say, we're treating the Garda as if he actually knows what he's doing, while we also know that he's telling the OP that not wearing a helmet is "an offence".

In fact, it's even possible the Garda threw in the second fine because he couldn't find the fine for not wearing a helmet. They threw the "without reasonable consideration" fine in with the specific fines as a "miscellaneous", as Paschal Donohoe more or less admitted when asked about fining cyclists for using a mobile phone.

EDIT: looking back at the first post, the Garda specifically says breaking a red light automatically means cycling without reasonable consideration.

tomasrojo

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

Maybe I should add that I have been working around the legal/judicial system for almost 20years.

This is equivalent to the "Scientist here ..." thing on Twitter. One of the posters in this thread used to be a Garda, which they didn't bring up, but they thought giving the two fines was an odd thing to do, which I would take as a reasonable indicator that it probably isn't a fair and proportionate use of the fine (as opposed to a permissible use of the fine in theory, given the right judge in court if challenged).

Not saying anything you've said is wrong -- I'm pretty sure in theory it's all correct, and I'm not a person who is in any way qualified in law anyway -- but nobody seems to have heard of someone getting the "misc." fine on top of a specific fine without breaking another specific law. It IS unusual, and it doesn't sound as if the OP was doing anything other than the lower end of common-or-garden light breaking. And the Garda, according to the OP, explained the second fine by saying "you went through a red light so no consideration for others". Being fined twice for *exactly* the same offence seems (the Garda doesn't appear to have suggested that it was an outrageous example of light breaking, but that breaking a light is inherently showing a lack of consideration for others), on the basis of what other people are saying of their experience of fines, unorthodox.

I had a look at IrishCycle.com's archives and stuff posted on Twitter, and the "without reasonable consideration" fine seems to be used mostly for people cycling the wrong way and cycling on the footpath: that is, things that are illegal but have no specific FCN associated with them.

tomasrojo

Every early mention of the "without reasonable consideration" FCN implies it was a way to be able to fine the more egregious examples of footpath cycling without having a specific FCN for all footpath cycling.

E.g. https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/cyclists-who-use-footpaths-will-not-be-fined-31342974.html

Anyway, I don't want to be arguing with people who, unlike me, do have knowledge of this area. I do think the fine is not being used as intended here, but maybe there's nothing to stop that from happening, bar going to court and a judge saying it's an unreasonable use of the catch-all fine.

St1mpMeister

So according to that, it is legal to turn left on red by mounting the pavement at the corner.

Madness. Just make a left on red legal if they're going that route.

Stark

It is legal in quite a lot of jurisdictions.

St1mpMeister

Stark wrote: »

It is legal in quite a lot of jurisdictions.

Yeah but not here where apparently it IS legal to take a 1m detour over the corner of the pavement instead

Eamonnator

St1mpMeister wrote: »

Yeah but not here where apparently it IS legal to take a 1m detour over the corner of the pavement instead

But, you have to get off your bike, walk around the corner on the path and remount, when you get around the corner.

AulWan

St1mpMeister wrote: »

I've paid both fines as it would have cost me more than €40 to spend a day in court, but I've also made a Freedom of Information request to get the Garda's report to see exactly how he justified the double fine.

If there are blatant falsehoods in the report then I'll take it up with the Ombudsman.

I won't get the €40 back, but it might deter him from being so free with handing out fines if he doesn't want further hassle, but it will also be interesting to see if he refers to the fact I "didn't have a helmet" as one of the offences (at the time he said this was an offence while I was on the Dublin Bike)

Anyway, I paid €40, I might as well get something out of it.

Pathetic.

As if the Gardai or the Ombudsman have time to be dealing with this sort of rubbish.

Kaisr Sose

AulWan wrote: »

Pathetic.

As if the Gardai or the Ombudsman have time to be dealing with this sort of rubbish.

OP is entitled to raise the conduct or act of any Garda with GSOC. They did say they tried to communicate with the issuing Garda but they were not interested. Its minor stuff, suey the Garda could offer more information on the basis for a dual summons for the same offence?

You are right to say it's pathetic. Some Garda are exactly that.

There are Garda, some at high levels in the force, that have not got a clue about many of the laws that they are empowered to enforce, and attempt to remain unanswerable for their actions. This is wrong.

The arrogance or indifference shown by them is shocking. If you dare question their decesions or acts they just ignore you..its an abuse of power and is what GSOC are empowered to investigate. The Garda the OP encountered may be one of these types and if I was the OP I would demand they explain their decision making here. If it stacks up fine, but failing to explain it stinks.

I am still waiting for the big shake up in the whole culture.

Limestone1

07Lapierre wrote: »

The flip side to that argument is if cyclists didn’t break the law, the Gardai would be free to go after real criminals!

No , they are free to go after real criminals ............cyclists are not preventing this

RobbieMD

Limestone1 wrote: »

No , they are free to go after real criminals ............cyclists are not preventing this

The question then is who is the arbiter of what a “real criminal” is.

St1mpMeister

Eamonnator wrote: »

But, you have to get off your bike, walk around the corner on the path and remount, when you get around the corner.

Apparently not, you can ride on the pavement according to that article, i.e mount pavement before reaching lights, ride around corner and then rejoin road once clear

Not saying I'd do this, just showing the hypocrisy in the rules.

Eamonnator

St1mpMeister wrote: »

Apparently not, you can ride on the pavement according to that article, i.e mount pavement before reaching lights, ride around corner and then rejoin road once clear

Not saying I'd do this, just showing the hypocrisy in the rules.

No, it is an offence to cycle on the footpath, but cycling on the footpath is not one of the specific offences, for which a fine on the spot can be issued.
Ironically, this is one of the offences, that could come under the umbrella of "without reasonable consideration"

St1mpMeister

Eamonnator wrote: »

No, it is an offence to cycle on the footpath, but cycling on the footpath is not one of the specific offences, for which a fine on the spot can be issued.

Eamonnator wrote: »

Ironically, this is one of the offences, that could come under the umbrella of "without reasonable consideration"

hmm don't those two conflict?

So it IS an on the spot fine then, as "Riding without reasonable consideration" is an available NFC