Veganism: Who is behind the Agenda?

Sardonicat · 10-12-2019 12:34pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Not eating meat doesn't need to be organic. They're different things - I wonder if anyone else was going to point that out.

Not eating meat is vegetarianism, veganism means excluding all animal derived food and products, no dairy, no eggs, etc. I can't see how excluding dairy from your diet completely can be healthy. Where do you get your calcium from?

emaherx · 10-12-2019 12:35pm

Xcellor wrote: »

Who is saying they should be wiped out? I think the point is to stop breeding them for the explicit purpose of farming. We "wipe out" ~ 100 billion animals a year which is driven by demand. Some animals have been bred to the point their very existence in a means they are suffering - turkeys apparently can't even naturally reproduce due to their size now.

At the extremes I agree with you, but do you really believe all turkeys can no longer naturally reproduce. Your YouTube videos show the worst in farming and yes your statement is true for many turkeys grown in industrial factory farms.

Xcellor · 10-12-2019 12:40pm

Sardonicat wrote: »

Not eating meat is vegetarianism, veganism means excluding all animal derived food and products, no dairy, no eggs, etc. I can't see how excluding dairy from your diet completely can be healthy. Where do you get your calcium from?

Where does every other animal which is weaned get its calcium from? Is there something wrong with humans that we need the titty milk of cows?

emaherx · 10-12-2019 12:42pm

Xcellor wrote: »

The vast bulk of protein in the typical omnivore diet comes from meat/eggs/milk.

Yes and if we cut them out we'd be vegan. What's the point? Most of what I eat is plant based but animal products are very high in protein so yes most of my protein comes from animal products.

Xcellor · 10-12-2019 12:49pm

emaherx wrote: »

At the extremes I agree with you, but do you really believe all turkeys can no longer naturally reproduce. Your YouTube videos show the worst in farming and yes your statement is true for many turkeys grown in industrial factory farms.

The worst of farming is the bulk of farming globally.

emaherx · 10-12-2019 12:51pm

Xcellor wrote: »

Where does every other animal which is weaned get its calcium from? Is there something wrong with humans that we need the titty milk of cows?

Who says titty milk?

It's a good source of calcium, humans are just resourceful that way. What other animal could milk a cow?

emaherx · 10-12-2019 12:53pm

Xcellor wrote: »

The worst of farming is the bulk of farming globally.

But not all farming, people have a choice when they purchase products. And not the bulk of farming in this country. Also not the bulk of farmers who you are speaking to in this forum.

Xcellor · 10-12-2019 12:56pm

emaherx wrote: »

Who says titty milk?

It's a good source of calcium, humans are just resourceful that way. What other animal could milk a cow?

The point is cows milk is not required by any other animal so it's reasonable to conclude there is sufficient calcium elsewhere. You say resourceful and indeed in times of necessity and survival I would agree 100% with this. We aren't in this scenario any more not in the western world.

auspicious · 10-12-2019 12:57pm

musings wrote: »

The media seem to be promoting the Vegan Agenda at every opportunity lately. Here is a graph that shows just how much interest has risen in Veganism.

Here is a link to the graph: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=vegan

At this stage it must be the 3.5% rule.
When the participants of political or social change surpass 3.5% of the population a snowball type effect takes place and the outcome is generally positive for the movement.

emaherx · 10-12-2019 1:09pm

Xcellor wrote: »

The point is cows milk is not required by any other animal so it's reasonable to conclude there is sufficient calcium elsewhere. You say resourceful and indeed in times of necessity and survival I would agree 100% with this. We aren't in this scenario any more not in the western world.

How sure are you that no other animal drinks milk? There are a few.

Say my name · 10-12-2019 1:10pm

Have we reached the point yet where the stronger pasturalist nomads invade on horseback and eliminate the settled farmers and towns?
Asking for a friend.

Capercaillie · 10-12-2019 1:12pm

Dubl07 wrote: »

If we were all to go vegan, there would be no cattle, sheep, chickens, pigs, geese, pheasants, partridges, turkeys etc except in zoos or as pets for the wealthy.

.

There all wild species of all those animals, which would all still exist if the world went vegan. Not advocating everybody go vegan btw.

emaherx · 10-12-2019 1:18pm

Capercaillie wrote: »

T
here all wild species of all those animals, which would all still exist if the world went vegan. Not advocating everybody go vegan btw.

Wild aurochs have been extinct for quite a while cattle are their closest living descendant. They are so close infact to the original aurochs that there is a project to selectively breed auroch traits back into cattle for re-wilding.

patsy_mccabe · 10-12-2019 1:35pm

Xcellor wrote: »

The worst of farming is the bulk of farming globally.

Says he with a full stomach.:rolleyes:

einn32 · 10-12-2019 2:16pm

The reason food is so cheap and available is technology, fertiliser, chemical control of pests etc., GM. People are spoilt for choice at the moment in the west. When any of these factors start to breakdown then the real issues will transpire. Then people will be happy to eat what food they can afford. Food supply, waste and water are the biggest issue for man. Climate change is being used to mask the real problems. A large number of the world population will be living in slums in the future and many within their own rubbish and sewage. The rich poor wide is widening.

Sardonicat · 10-12-2019 2:18pm

Xcellor wrote: »

Where does every other animal which is weaned get its calcium from? Is there something wrong with humans that we need the titty milk of cows?

I don't know. I was asking a question. How do vegans get their calcium?

auspicious · 10-12-2019 2:52pm

Sardonicat wrote: »

I don't know. I was asking a question. How do vegans get their calcium?

1. FORTIFIED ALMOND, SOY, OR RICE MILK, 8 OUNCES: 300-500MG (30-50%)
2. FORTIFIED ORANGE JUICE, 8 OUNCES: 350 MG (35%)
3. COLLARD GREENS, COOKED, 1 CUP: 270 MG (27%)
4. FORTIFIED BREAKFAST CEREAL, 1 CUP DRY: 250-1000 MG (25-100%)
5. TURNIP GREENS, STEAMED OR BOILED, 1 CUP: 200 MG (20%)
6. MUSTARD GREENS, STEAMED OR BOILED, 1 CUP: 160 MG (16%)
7. BOK CHOY, STEAMED OR BOILED, 1 CUP: 150 MG (15%)
8. TEMPEH, 4 OUNCES: 120 MG (12%)
9. TAHINI, 2 TABLESPOONS: 120 MG (12%)
10. DRIED FIGS, 1/2 CUP: 120 MG (12%)
11. EXTRA FIRM TOFU, 3 OUNCES: 100 MG – 150 MG (10-15%)
12. OATS, INSTANT, 1 SERVING: 100 MG (10%)
13. KALE, STEAMED OR BOILED, 1 CUP: 100 MG (10%)
14. SHELLED EDAMAME, STEAMED, 1 CUP: 100 MG (10%)
15. SILKEN TOFU, 3 OUNCES: 80 MG (8%)
16. BLACKSTRAP MOLASSES, 1 TABLESPOON: 80 MG (8%)
17. ALMOND BUTTER, 2 TABLESPOONS: 80 MG (8%)
18. ALMONDS, 1 OUNCE: 80 MG (8%)
19. ORANGE, 1 CUP SECTIONS: 70 MG (7%)
20. NAVY BEANS, COOKED, ½ CUP: 65 MG (6.5%)
21. BROCCOLI, STEAMED OR BOILED, 1 CUP: 60 MG (6%)
22. PINTO BEANS, COOKED, ½ CUP: 50 MG (5%)

FORTIFIED CEREAL (25%) + FORTIFIED NON-DAIRY MILK (45%) = 70% RDA

whisky_galore · 10-12-2019 3:01pm

Urbanisation, people having never been on a farm in their lives.
Anthropomorphism of animals.. seeing calves as "babies" as per those billboards.
Influencers and interests having a stake in the non meat industry.
Wealth, you tend to be less picky when there's not a lot of cash floating around.
People looking for an alternative to religion.

Sardonicat · 10-12-2019 3:12pm

auspicious wrote: »

1. FORTIFIED ALMOND, SOY, OR RICE MILK, 8 OUNCES: 300-500MG (30-50%)
2. FORTIFIED ORANGE JUICE, 8 OUNCES: 350 MG (35%)
3. COLLARD GREENS, COOKED, 1 CUP: 270 MG (27%)
4. FORTIFIED BREAKFAST CEREAL, 1 CUP DRY: 250-1000 MG (25-100%)
5. TURNIP GREENS, STEAMED OR BOILED, 1 CUP: 200 MG (20%)
6. MUSTARD GREENS, STEAMED OR BOILED, 1 CUP: 160 MG (16%)
7. BOK CHOY, STEAMED OR BOILED, 1 CUP: 150 MG (15%)
8. TEMPEH, 4 OUNCES: 120 MG (12%)
9. TAHINI, 2 TABLESPOONS: 120 MG (12%)
10. DRIED FIGS, 1/2 CUP: 120 MG (12%)
11. EXTRA FIRM TOFU, 3 OUNCES: 100 MG – 150 MG (10-15%)
12. OATS, INSTANT, 1 SERVING: 100 MG (10%)
13. KALE, STEAMED OR BOILED, 1 CUP: 100 MG (10%)
14. SHELLED EDAMAME, STEAMED, 1 CUP: 100 MG (10%)
15. SILKEN TOFU, 3 OUNCES: 80 MG (8%)
16. BLACKSTRAP MOLASSES, 1 TABLESPOON: 80 MG (8%)
17. ALMOND BUTTER, 2 TABLESPOONS: 80 MG (8%)
18. ALMONDS, 1 OUNCE: 80 MG (8%)
19. ORANGE, 1 CUP SECTIONS: 70 MG (7%)
20. NAVY BEANS, COOKED, ½ CUP: 65 MG (6.5%)
21. BROCCOLI, STEAMED OR BOILED, 1 CUP: 60 MG (6%)
22. PINTO BEANS, COOKED, ½ CUP: 50 MG (5%)

FORTIFIED CEREAL (25%) + FORTIFIED NON-DAIRY MILK (45%) = 70% RDA

So fortified with calcium? Sourced from where/what?

auspicious · 10-12-2019 3:25pm

Sardonicat wrote: »

So fortified with calcium? Sourced from where/what?

Same way cow's milk is fortified with vitamins B, D, E, folic acid and calcium..?

Sardonicat · 10-12-2019 3:28pm

auspicious wrote: »

Same way cow's is fortified with vitamins B, D, E, folic acid and calcium..?

I get the impression you think I'm trying to be smart. I'm not. I have absolutely no idea how foods are fortified or how the vitamins and minerals used are sourced or where from. If foods are fortified with calcium where does it come from?

auspicious · 10-12-2019 3:31pm

Sardonicat wrote: »

I get the impression you think I'm trying to be smart. I'm not. I have absolutely no idea how foods are fortified or how the vitamins and minerals used are sourced or where from. If foods are fortified with calcium where does it come from?

I don't.
I don't know either. I'm sure there's vids on youtube.

ganmo · 10-12-2019 4:00pm

auspicious wrote: »

Same way cow's milk is fortified with vitamins B, D, E, folic acid and calcium..?

There are fortified milks available but they only have added vitamins.
Sources of calcium for fortification are either the minerals removed when making whey protein or limestone quarries from the ground

Waffletraktor · 10-12-2019 7:28pm

Say my name wrote: »

Have we reached the point yet where the stronger pasturalist nomads invade on horseback and eliminate the settled farmers and towns?
Asking for a friend.

These chaps certainly had that view!
https://player.fm/series/wrath-of-the-khans-series-dan-carlins-hardcore-history-2420352

Say my name · 10-12-2019 7:51pm

Waffletraktor wrote: »

These chaps certainly had that view!
https://player.fm/series/wrath-of-the-khans-series-dan-carlins-hardcore-history-2420352

I was actually thinking of the Turks invading Iran and the middle east.

https://youtu.be/YirWYMurJn4

That narrator in the clip above says the Crusades might not have been so much as Christian v's Muslim but as nomadic decending Turks coming from the east and threatening the settled farmers and middle east and then the Roman church putting the call out. The middle eastern farmers Christian or Muslim were all meeting the same fate. And not a vegan among the invaders..

Waffletraktor · 10-12-2019 8:03pm

Say my name wrote: »

I was actually thinking of the Turks invading Iran and the middle east.

https://youtu.be/YirWYMurJn4

That narrator in the clip above says the Crusades might not have been so much as Christian v's Muslim but as nomadic decending Turks coming from the east and threatening the settled farmers and middle east and then the Roman church putting the call out. The middle eastern farmers Christian or Muslim were all meeting the same fate. And not a vegan among the invaders..

From the Mongol pods it more or less the same, once the ball got rolling anyone who got in the way were viewed as game to be hunted until the chinese eventually showed they could be farmed instead.

Say my name · 10-12-2019 8:43pm

Waffletraktor wrote: »

From the Mongol pods it more or less the same, once the ball got rolling anyone who got in the way were viewed as game to be hunted until the chinese eventually showed they could be farmed instead.

I had to actually Google there if the Turks and Mongols weren't the same people such was the close timeline. And before that it was Attila the Hun.
The Turks seemingly killed off all before them for land for grazing. And the Mongols were kind of making the conquered fight for them.
Some great similarities between the plains Indians of north America and the Mongols and Turks of Asia bar maybe a native American leader like Genghis Khan.

djmc · 10-12-2019 10:42pm

emaherx wrote: »

Wild aurochs have been extinct for quite a while cattle are their closest living descendant. They are so close infact to the original aurochs that there is a project to selectively breed auroch traits back into cattle for re-wilding.

Farmers know that most breeds of cattle and horses would not live over the winter without food and shelter. I dont claim to know about a vegan diet but I do know about farming and farm animals.
Here is a farmers point of view https://blackfieldfarm.com/what-is-vegan-food-about/

barnaman · 11-12-2019 12:25am

auspicious wrote: »

Same way cow's milk is fortified with vitamins B, D, E, folic acid and calcium..?

The biggest problem with Veganism v Vegetarianism is that its just not possible to to be truly Vegan. Veganism relies on fortified foods. An essential vitamin for life is B12. The source of B12 is bacteria that live in plant eating animals guts. Ominvores get it through meat or animals products, Vegans get it from fortified cereals.

https://veganhealth.org/vitamin-b12-vegan-sources/

"The vitamin B12 component in B12 supplements and fortified foods is made by bacteria and sourced from bacteria cultures; it is not taken from animal products"

The problem is the bacteria cultures, propionibacterium shermanii, are all cultured on a lactate medium! Essentially whey (as a waste product from cheese making) :rolleyes:

emaherx · 11-12-2019 8:24am

djmc wrote: »

Farmers know that most breeds of cattle and horses would not live over the winter without food and shelter. I dont claim to know about a vegan diet but I do know about farming and farm animals.
Here is a farmers point of view https://blackfieldfarm.com/what-is-vegan-food-about/

Thanks, I needed a farmers point of view!

I was referring to a program in a warmer climate using older breeds in central Europe where some areas are loosing natural grassland due to small farmers simply giving up and leaving the landscape with no natural grazing animals.

https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-earth/return-of-the-aurochs

Veganism: Who is behind the Agenda?

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