Veganism: Who is behind the Agenda?

Capercaillie

gozunda wrote: »

I've read the book and whilst we have problems here - it bears little resemblence to the issues of arable and horticultural production to the US in the 1960s as detailed in Rachel's Carson's book. But the main point being - swapping everything to plant food as in arable and horticultural production (even if that were possible) Is certainly no panacea to the issues of cheap food production or a healthy environment.

33% of Irish bee species endanger of extinction. Only 1% of water catchment areas are of pristine water quality. Proper sustainable beef/dairy production can help biodiversity though, not however with schemes like GLAS or "greening" payments or with our perverse eligibility rules for BFP.

nice bit of green

Kevin Keegan.

gozunda

Capercaillie wrote: »

33% of Irish bee species endanger of extinction. Only 1% of water catchment areas are of pristine water quality. Proper sustainable beef/dairy production can help biodiversity though, not however with schemes like GLAS or "greening" payments or with our perverse eligibility rules for BFP.

The one thing that has increased in this country is that human population - up approx 46 % since we joined the EU. That said cattle numbers have declined. Water use, sewage disposal, urbanisation, road building, state sponsored drainage and yes even improvements in agriculture production certainly has a roll to play in water quality changes. Biodiversity remediation should be priority and everything which goes with that.

Balf

gozunda wrote: »

And yes as an Island Nation we both export and import a wide range of goods and foodstuffs.

If there is an interruption of supply - people will have to forgoe their avocados and quinoa for a while. Yes and maybe even cheap white bread and sugar and tea and coffee

You take a long time to say very little, and that little is off target.

We don't export a wide range of foodstuffs. Our exports are overwhelmingly concentrated in a few products. And you are clearly oblivious to the wide range of basic products that we need to import.

If you have the knowledge you claim, you are not displaying it here.

gozunda

Balf wrote: »

You take a long time to say very little, and that little is off target. We don't export a wide range of foodstuffs. Our exports are overwhelmingly concentrated in a few products. And you are clearly oblivious to the wide range of basic products that we need to import if you have the knowledge you claim, you are not displaying it here.

Balf why the need for the snark there? You also seem utterly hung up on semantics. You picked one single line to complain about. Indeed I did detail "import and exports" so yes between those - there are indeed a wide range of goods and foodstuffs - so I'll leave you bashing farming over in AH about the protest :rolleyes: .

Balf

gozunda wrote: »

You also seem utterly hung up on semantics.

Utterly hung up on a peculiar desire to state the facts plainly.

Stating facts isn't bashing anyone.

gozunda

Balf wrote: »

Utterly hung up on a peculiar desire to state the facts plainly.
Stating facts isn't bashing anyone.

Lol. Incorrect. You failed to provide even a singular 'fact' in your reply - rather resorted to daft semantics - this:

Balf wrote: »

You take a long time to say very little, and that little is off target.We don't export a wide range of foodstuffs. Our exports are overwhelmingly concentrated in a few products. And you are clearly oblivious to the wide range of basic products that we need to import.If you have the knowledge you claim, you are not displaying it here.

Although that said - you spectacularly dismissed the facts provided regarding the potato supply in this country amongst other detail in my reply to your rather strange ideas about agriculture.

I will give it to you though your hatred of Irish Farming comes across well in many of your boards comments. Veg*n?

Balf

gozunda wrote: »

Although that said - you spectacularly dismissed the facts provided regarding the potato supply in this country amongst other detail in my reply to your rather strange ideas about agriculture.

I will give it to you though your hatred of Irish Farming comes across well in many of your boards comments. Veg*n?

Sorry, I've linked facts:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=112011932&postcount=135

Are some of the facts I'm raising being disputed?

Again, being factual does not equate to hatred of anyone.

Avoidance of facts, on the other hand, is evidence that someone has a problem.

Are you contesting the basic structure of Irish agriculture?

gozunda

Balf wrote: »

Sorry, I've linked facts:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=112011932&postcount=135[/url]
Are some of the facts I'm raising being disputed?Again, being factual does not equate to hatred of anyone.Avoidance of facts, on the other hand, is evidence that someone has a problem.Are you contesting the basic structure of Irish agriculture?

Nope. Your various rants about agriculture in this thread are not 'facts'. Your opinion that Ireland couldn't possibly be cited as the most food secure nation globally was hilariously predicated on 'something something' Singapore. Which I'm afraid didn't stand up to scrutiny.

Over multiple threads in various forums dedicate considerable time bashing agriculture and farming - although you appear to know little to nothing about farming nor food production. See your constant diatribe about exports and on potatoes as just one small example of that.

Here's some of the choice comments by way of example on the stereotypical bashing of farmers etc

Balf wrote:

If a pig farmer said it, the kind who holds up his trousers with a bit of binder twine, you excuse it on the grounds that he'd left school aged twelve.

Balf wrote:

Farmers need a big mindset change. Hopefully, they're getting an education from the reaction to their protest.

Balf wrote:

I think folk don't quite appreciate just how brutally materialist farming culture is. There's a mistaken picture of rural life being all about happy yokels, like the Hobbits in LoTR.

And all because -

Balf wrote:

I think the issue is because Irish farming is heavily concentrated in a few products, largely intended for export, I'm unlikely to find Irish products for many of my food needs. 

Yes indeed Irish farmers do mostly poduce beef, pork, lamb and dairy (which btw includes milk, cheese, butter, yogurts and a wide range of other products). Oh, and yes also poultry, eggs and mushrooms. And even potatoes which as I've detailed we are nearly self sufficient in main crop types due to investment in cold storage.

Yes Ireland is limited by climate, topography and soils as to what we can produce. That is a fact.

But what we do produce we generally do it well. And It is fair that producers are at least rewarded a fair price for what is sold in the shops and yes even exported abroad. Is there room for improvement? Yes there is.

I'm truely sorry you dont like that because it doesn't seem to suit your personal dietary requirements. But then happily farmings value and importance doesn't stand on one persons particular likes or dislikes...

ganmo

Balf, would it be more carbon efficient to move you to where your food is produced than it is to bring it here?

Balf

gozunda wrote: »

Your opinion that Ireland couldn't possibly be cited as the most food secure nation globally was hilariously predicated on 'something something' Singapore. Which I'm afraid didn't stand up to scrutiny.

No, my critique absolutely stands.

gozunda wrote: »

I'm truely sorry you dont like that because it doesn't seem to suit your personal dietary requirements. But then happily farmings value and importance doesn't stand on one persons particular likes or dislikes...

Again, you let yourself down with this deep denial.

Its nothing to do with my personal dietary requirements, and everything to do with the fact that we need to import about €8 billion in foodstuffs every year.

Some of it because it can't be grown here. Others, because our domestic production is concentrated in a few products - chiefly for export, apparently at a price that farmers can't make a profit from.

ganmo wrote: »

Balf, would it be more carbon efficient to move you to where your food is produced than it is to bring it here?

Would it be more profitable for farmers to produce products that are actually in demand at the price they expect?

Waffletraktor

Balf wrote: »

Sorry, I've linked facts:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=112011932&postcount=135

Are some of the facts I'm raising being disputed?

Again, being factual does not equate to hatred of anyone.

Avoidance of facts, on the other hand, is evidence that someone has a problem.

Are you contesting the basic structure of Irish agriculture?

From your link:
-Ireland would struggle to grow all of it's human consumption cereals, in the modern world residual toxins from crop disease monitoring. It's generally what fungicides are applied to limit.
Crop yields cause the required constituents to be almost impossible to achieve, eg berries of wheat physically pack in to much starch diluting the protein content in all but specialist spring wheat. Then you have to worry about hagberg quality
- Since labour costs has ended the possibility of mass veg production without expensive specialised machinery, the available type of land that could be cultivated has shrunk. The demand now is loams sandy-silt and minimal clay without much stone content which the likes of the dutch have an abundance of.
-Sugar and oils are unviable due to controls on method of production within the Eu being much higher than imports and the associated increase in cost. Eg Neonic seed dressing ban has rendered Osr virtually impossible to grow in regions favourable to flea beetle. Carrots are ironically the best producers of sugar only it's too expensive to extract, then beet don't match up too well with high fructose like corn syrup and cane.

ganmo

Balf wrote: »

Would it be more profitable for farmers to produce products that are actually in vogue at the price they expect?

Fyp
Chasing trends is a good way to loose money

patsy_mccabe

Passed a vegan billboard today. Had to laugh when I saw what was on the reverse side of it. It was a local business. He's also my silage contractor. It's also on his land.

Balf

Waffletraktor wrote: »

From your link:
-Ireland would struggle to grow all of it's human consumption cereals, in the modern world residual toxins from crop disease monitoring. It's generally what fungicides are applied to limit.
Crop yields cause the required constituents to be almost impossible to achieve, eg berries of wheat physically pack in to much starch diluting the protein content in all but specialist spring wheat. Then you have to worry about hagberg quality
- Since labour costs has ended the possibility of mass veg production without expensive specialised machinery, the available type of land that could be cultivated has shrunk. The demand now is loams sandy-silt and minimal clay without much stone content which the likes of the dutch have an abundance of.
-Sugar and oils are unviable due to controls on method of production within the Eu being much higher than imports and the associated increase in cost. Eg Neonic seed dressing ban has rendered Osr virtually impossible to grow in regions favourable to flea beetle. Carrots are ironically the best producers of sugar only it's too expensive to extract, then beet don't match up too well with high fructose like corn syrup and cane.

So you're saying Ireland is not a good place to pursue agriculture.

Fine, do continue. I'm all about challenging the traditional myth that this is a hugely productive agricultural country, with massive untapped potential.

ganmo

Balf wrote: »

So you're saying Ireland is not a good place to pursue agriculture.

Fine, do continue. I'm all about challenging the traditional myth that this is a hugely productive agricultural country, with massive untapped potential.

you misread that, waffle means ireland is a poor place to pursue cereal crops.
it is however very good at growing grass that animals can convert to top quality food

Mr Meanor

December 20th 2019, Study from Sheffield University

High carbon footprint families identified by sweets and restaurant food, not higher meat consumption

https://phys.org/news/2019-12-high-carbon-footprint-families-sweets.html

Wonder if we will hear anything in the media about this, it's not the red meat its 'restaurants, alcohol and sweets!'

Quote from article,

Meat has earned a reputation as an environmentally damaging food, with beef production emitting 20 times more greenhouse gases than bean production for the same amount of protein.

However, the researchers caution against a one-size-fits-all policy after finding that the consumption of sweets, alcohol and restaurant food adds to families' footprints in a larger capacity than other items. Eating out was found to contribute on average 770 kg of greenhouse gases per year for those households with a higher footprint, whereas meat contributed just 280kg.

gozunda

This was posted today on another thread ...

“Please don’t try to blame me for climate change

Daily Mail 5 Aug 2019

AS A dairy cow, I feel much maligned by misconceptions concerning my contribution to climate change. Plants and trees are nature’s way of dealing with carbon emissions, but this process produces cellulose, a carbohydrate you humans are unable to digest. However, I love to eat it and I convert it into milk and beef, which you enjoy as part of your balanced diet.

I do apologise for the methane I produce, but have your scientists told you that this breaks down naturally and is reabsorbed by plants, thus completing a natural cycle? Because of better breeding, I produce more milk and meat than my grandparents did, so fewer cows are needed, hence our carbon footprint has actually decreased.

I do wish you humans would acknowledge that 80 per cent of greenhouse gasses come from the fossil fuel-consuming industries, which include factories producing processed soya, almond and other somewhat artificial drinks masquerading as milk!

PURESNOW, c/o NICK HEBDITCH, Chard, Somerset.

Balf

ganmo wrote: »

it is however very good at growing grass that animals can convert to top quality food

Gosh, then farmers doing things like raising cattle for beef must be rolling in it.

I'd bet that top quality food like that wouldn't usually be found wrapped in plastic in a branch of Asda or Tesco in the UK.

gozunda

Balf wrote: »

Gosh, then farmers doing things like raising cattle for beef must be rolling in it.I'd bet that top quality food like that wouldn't usually be found wrapped in plastic in a branch of Asda or Tesco in the UK.

Well the processors and retailers are for sure. Not much different from your favoured vegetable producers situation eh?

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/watch-farmers-protest-over-low-vegetable-prices-in-dublin-426921

But do you mean like all those lovely shrink wrapped vegetables in supermarkets or even all those highly synthetic packaged foods being pushed by the plant food industry? Yeah packing is a bitch.

And the pharma industries here selling stuff in the UK - feking disgrace eh? How dare they!

Maybe try going to your local butcher and vegetable shop for a change. There you will able to chose locally sourced food and carry it home in your own hands. Though dont forget to wash your hands first so you dont cross contaminate your food.

Btw what are you having for Christmas dinner if you dont mind me asking?

Balf

gozunda wrote: »

Btw what are you having for Christmas dinner if you dont mind me asking?

Turkey, slice each of ham and spiced beef, cranberry sauce and stuffing, sprouts and carrots, roast potatoes and a bottle of German white wine.

And yourself?

gozunda

Balf wrote: »

Turkey, slice each of ham and spiced beef, cranberry sauce and stuffing, sprouts and carrots, roast potatoes and a bottle of German white wine.

And yourself?

Much the same - except I'll be having a locally sourced goose. Ditto veg spuds and yes even my own sprouts grown here. Not a huge fan of cranberries though tbh.

If you are intereted in supporting diversification here and not importing foreign goods etc - maybe look at buying some Irish wines.

https://www.irelandbeforeyoudie.com/five-irish-wines-you-must-try-before-you-die/

Capercaillie

gozunda wrote: »

Much the same - except I'll be having a locally sourced goose. Ditto veg spuds and yes even my own sprouts grown here. Not a huge fan of cranberries though tbh.

If you are intereted in supporting diversification here and not importing foreign goods etc - maybe look at buying some Irish wines.

https://www.irelandbeforeyoudie.com/five-irish-wines-you-must-try-before-you-die/

Gozunda, fair play there. I assume you will not eat Irish beef that has been finished on meal with soy products imported from South America?

gozunda

Capercaillie wrote: »

Gozunda, fair play there. I assume you will not eat Irish beef that has been finished on meal with soy products imported from South America?

You are correct. I wont. Nor eating highly processed crap made with derivatives of soy and god knows what else flown in from the US.

No idea why you reckon that all Irish beef is finished primarily on 'soy products from South America'. You must be reading those daft plant based websites again :pac:

The US is the biggest producer of soybeans globally - with most of the soy grown in South America going to China - go figure eh? . But that's ok - I dont think the Chinese are big into Christmas. Great bunch of lads all the same ...

Same question to you Capercaillie - what will you eating this Christmas - some form of grain fed poulty?

Btw if you are trying to avoid imported soy and grain - remember lots of soy meal (a by-product of soy oil extraction) goes into poulty and pet feed interestingly enough. It's also in nearly all processed bread and used as a filler in a huge range of of foodstuffs etc.

Capercaillie

gozunda wrote: »

You are correct. I wont. Nor eating highly processed crap made with derivatives of soy and god knows what else flown in from the US.

No idea why you reckon that all Irish beef is finished primarily on 'soy products from South America'. You must be reading those daft plant based websites again :pac:

The US is the biggest producer of soybeans globally - with most of the soy grown in South America going to China - go figure eh? . But that's ok - I dont think the Chinese are big into Christmas. Great bunch of lads all the same ...

Same question to you Capercaillie - what will you eating this Christmas - some form of grain fed poulty?

Btw if you are trying to avoid imported soy and grain - remember lots of soy meal (a by-product of soy oil extraction) goes into poulty and pet feed interestingly enough. It's also in nearly all processed bread and used as a filler in a huge range of of foodstuffs etc.

Well it's hard to finish cattle < 30 months without meal, no doubt you will agree. Never said cattle were finished primarily on soy products, you twisted what I said. How do you check the traceability to ensure stock have not been fed any soy byproducts?


I ain't vegan/vegetarian. I ate the regular stuff, but will dine on a bit of steak that was fed silage from my species rich meadow.....

gozunda

Capercaillie wrote: »

Well it's hard to finish cattle < 30 months without meal, no doubt you will agree. Never said cattle were finished primarily on soy products, you twisted what I said. How do you check the traceability to ensure stock have not been fed any soy byproducts?I ain't vegan/vegetarian. I ate the regular stuff, but will dine on a bit of steak that was fed silage from my species rich meadow.....

The emphasis was on the South America reference. So no twist implied actual or otherwise.

Well no I didn't say finishing them with no meal but yes it's possible and some do
See:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=111393752

Also finishing cattle with different systems eg

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/beef-focus-moving-to-organic-beef-is-the-best-decision-ive-made/

But the point I made is that not all soy meal comes from South America and not all meal is soy but more importantly soy derivatives are to be found everywhere in human food. (Arable crops tends not to do well here so yes most likley we will continue to import these).

I'm not a fan but I'm not a zealot either

emaherx

Capercaillie wrote: »

Gozunda, fair play there. I assume you will not eat Irish beef that has been finished on meal with soy products imported from South America?

Chances of beef produced here being finished on soy from south America is actually quite slim. Most of our soy comes from the USA and its also not the only ingredient used in meal. Animal feed is imported here from 67 different countries and most is sourced from UK, France and eastern Europe. Beef industry actually uses very little meal compared with other live stock industries so it's far more likely to have been fed to Pigs poultry or Dairy cows.

Capercaillie

emaherx wrote: »

Chances of beef produced here being finished on soy from south America is actually quite slim. Most of our soy comes from the USA and its also not the only ingredient used in meal. Animal feed is imported here from 67 different countries and most is sourced from UK, France and eastern Europe. Beef industry actually uses very little meal compared with other live stock industries so it's far more likely to have been fed to Pigs poultry or Dairy cows.

Point I was trying to make was Gozunda was slating soy, while ignoring the fact its fed (in meal) to mainly finishing cattle, ad lib meal feetlot cattle and dairy cows.

_Brian

Extremists at anything is never a good thing.

https://news.sky.com/story/vegan-parents-accused-of-starving-child-to-death-on-diet-of-fruit-and-vegetables-11891094

Capercaillie

gozunda wrote: »

The emphasis was on the South America reference. So no twist implied actual or otherwise.

Well no I didn't say finishing them with no meal but yes it's possible and some do
See:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=111393752

Also finishing cattle with different systems eg

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/beef-focus-moving-to-organic-beef-is-the-best-decision-ive-made/

But the point I made is that not all soy meal comes from South America and not all meal is soy but more importantly soy derivatives are to be found everywhere in human food. (Arable crops tends not to do well here so yes most likley we will continue to import these).

I'm not a fan but I'm not a zealot either

True pasture-fed beef/organic/regenerative agriculture /nature friendly beef is in minority in Ireland.