Veganism: Who is behind the Agenda?

hetuzozaho

Xcellor wrote: »

I don't class veganism as a diet which restricts food groups. Protein, fats and carbohydrates are all available in plants. Why on earth dairy and meat get their own group it's strange.

The food pyramid is probably like that drink 8 cups of water thing?

Most modern advice is cut down on red meat anyway isn't it?

gozunda

hetuzozaho wrote: »

The food pyramid is probably like that drink 8 cups of water thing? Most modern advice is cut down on red meat anyway isn't it?

From reading official dietary sources the main advisory is that most people eat and drink too many calories, too much saturated fat, sugar and salt, and not enough fruit, vegetables, oily fish or fibre.

With regards meat - mainstream advice is that it is a recommended part of a healthy balanced diet but that all highly processed foods of all types should be kept to a minimum.

But then at present it seems to the the trendy thing to have a go only at meat. But I think that suits much of the plant food industry agenda tbh.

emaherx

hetuzozaho wrote: »

Most modern advice is cut down on red meat anyway isn't it?

The advice is limit your intake, but you only need to cut down if you eat too much.

Guide lines generally are to limit red meat to between 350 and 500g a week which is a fair bit. If you were to eat poultry a couple of times a week and maybe fish one day then 500g is an awful lot of meat to eat over 4 days. Red meat is not considered an unhealthy food just many people eat an unhealthy amount of it which is a completely different thing.

whelan2

Poster I saw today was along the line of humans dont need cows milk for calcium you can get it from plants.....

elperello

whelan2 wrote: »

Poster I saw today was along the line of humans dont need cows milk for calcium you can get it from plants.....

Yes they are right.
You get calcium from - broccoli, cabbage, nuts, soya beans, tofu.

wats the craic

elperello wrote: »

Yes they are right.
You get calcium from - broccoli, cabbage, nuts, soya beans, tofu.

so where extactly do you get tofu from i mean which country is it grown . also the majority of soya comes from clearing rain forest which is quare good for the planet alright ......

elperello

wats the craic wrote: »

so where extactly do you get tofu from i mean which country is it grown . also the majority of soya comes from clearing rain forest which is quare good for the planet alright ......

It's horrible stuff made from soya.
I wouldn't eat it if you paid me.
My point was that you can get calcium from other sources apart from dairy.

_Brian

wats the craic wrote: »

so where extactly do you get tofu from i mean which country is it grown . also the majority of soya comes from clearing rain forest which is quare good for the planet alright ......

The tofu is just made from soy.

_Brian

elperello wrote: »

It's horrible stuff made from soya.
I wouldn't eat it if you paid me.
My point was that you can get calcium from other sources apart from dairy.

It’s not bad diced and fried, chuck into stir fry.

hetuzozaho

emaherx wrote: »

The advice is limit your intake, but you only need to cut down if you eat too much.

.

Haha sorry! Limit it was meant. Maybe there is similar advice around vegetables though!

_Brian

hetuzozaho wrote: »

Haha sorry! Limit it was meant. Maybe there is similar advice around vegetables though!

Balance is key.
Eating as wide a variety of foods will avoid having too much of any one, that’s why restrictive diets are poor, they push people towards limited choices and that’s where dietary deficiencies come from.

Eat your meat, have your dairy, but also get your fruits and veg in too. That’s the absolute best advice for humans.

hetuzozaho

_Brian wrote: »

Eat your meat, have your dairy, but also get your fruits and veg in too. That’s the absolute best advice for humans.

But the meat and dairy don't bring anything that can't be gotten elsewhere? Or what am I missing?

If its good enough for Messi during the season haha

In saying that, I enjoy a steak and a Siren Brewing Broken Dream too much to go vegan, but its a lifestyle choice for me. I'm sure I'd be grand without them!

_Brian

The other point I’m going to make about the vegan lifestyle.
It’s based on hyper processed foods.

The best nutritional advice is the eat whole foods, be that chicken breast, steaks, veg barely cooked of cooked at all.

I popped in and looked at the 17 posts on the Veganuary thread over on the dark side. Every single post and recommendation is for hyper processed foods. There is nothing healthy or sustainable about that lifestyle. The processing adds god knows what that isn’t right for people. The ingredients are often produced in places and methods that are far far worse for the environment and biodiversity than good animal farming practice.

So really the vegan lifestyle just comes down to the emotional weakness over farming and slaughter of animals. I appreciate this isn’t for everyone and they are free to choose otherwise to appease their weakness. But farming has been sustaining humans for a long time and continues to do so. Vested interests will fling lots of mud and idiots will beleive everything they see, but they need to realise they are being manipulated to buy the exact products vegans are raving about in their posts, they are being monitised and bled dry by corporations who see them as a revenue source.

_Brian

hetuzozaho wrote: »

But the meat and dairy don't bring anything that can't be gotten elsewhere? Or what am I missing?

If its good enough for Messi during the season haha

In saying that, I enjoy a steak and a Siren Brewing Broken Dream too much to go vegan, but its a lifestyle choice for me. I'm sure I'd be grand without them!

A simple example.
Protein isn’t just protein.

The protein available in animal products are complete proteins and are more suitable for humans than plant proteins which don’t contain the same amounts of amino acids that animal based proteins do.

hetuzozaho

_Brian wrote: »

A simple example.
Protein isn’t just protein.

The protein available in animal products are complete proteins and are more suitable for humans than plant proteins which don’t contain the same amounts of amino acids that animal based proteins do.

I think Quinoa ticks most boxes in that area

And Messi is killing it haha

_Brian

hetuzozaho wrote: »

I think Quinoa ticks most boxes in that area

And Messi is killing it haha

Is messi a slaughter house worker or something ?

_Brian

hetuzozaho wrote: »

I think Quinoa ticks most boxes in that area

And Messi is killing it haha

So look at that statement.

Think of all the diverse animal based protein sources, beef, lamb, pork, chicken, fish, eggs. The variety they provide in taste and texture, the interesting ways they are cooked and presented providing a plethora of options.

You suggested quinola as an alternative to all these, amd I’m not even bothering to research your claim because you simply can’t replace all these different options with one thing. That’s what I’ve been saying about variety and restrictive diets. You eliminate all these excellent highly nutritious foods and replace with one thing, it’s not a proper omnivorous diet and it’s not sustainable. That’s why more than 80% of people who start a vegan lifestyle return to a proper normal omnivorous diet within a year.

hetuzozaho

_Brian wrote: »

So look at that statement.

Think of all the diverse animal based protein sources, beef, lamb, pork, chicken, fish, eggs. The variety they provide in taste and texture, the interesting ways they are cooked and presented providing a plethora of options.

You suggested quinola as an alternative to all these, amd I’m not even bothering to research your claim because you simply can’t replace all these different options with one thing. That’s what I’ve been saying about variety and restrictive diets. You eliminate all these excellent highly nutritious foods and replace with one thing, it’s not a proper omnivorous diet and it’s not sustainable. That’s why more than 80% of people who start a vegan lifestyle return to a proper normal omnivorous diet within a year.

They don't though. They get protein from a variety of sources too from highly nutrious foods. But you brought up the complete protein so was just chatting about that. Sorry man!

I feel you've a bee in your bonnet about them! I ain't a vegan and never will be. We've no beef but the vegans are grand I'd say.

Nah Messi just an example of a vegan diet being the damn best diet haha. A joke.

Xcellor

Vegans aren't protein deficient. Even top performing athletes are able to get the required levels of protein without eating animal products. All essential amino acids are found in plants.

B12 is the area of most concern for vegans but most sensible ones supplement. It's not natural but then neither is brushing your teeth or using toilet paper..

Interestingly though they have recently discovered duck weed, the green plant found growing in the majority of ponds , lakes and rivers contains b12 and is edible. It has a very good nutritional make up. Very easy to grow too. This is another source of naturally available b12 other than nutritional yeast. Maybe the next super food was right under our noses?

I think however taking a supplement is the best even for meat eaters who can can be low on b12.

jh79

Seen this in the guardian today. Seems veg, especially organic ones, don't have the same level of nutirents as they used to making meat even more important to a good diet.

Red meat plays vital role in diets, claims expert in fightback against veganism

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/jan/05/red-meat-diet-modern-vegetables-lack-nutrients-fightback-veganism?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

stretch film

Xcellor wrote: »

Vegans aren't protein deficient. Even top performing athletes are able to get the required levels of protein without eating animal products. All essential amino acids are found in plants.

B12 is the area of most concern for vegans but most sensible ones supplement. It's not natural but then neither is brushing your teeth or using toilet paper..

Interestingly though they have recently discovered duck weed, the green plant found growing in the majority of ponds , lakes and rivers contains b12 and is edible. It has a very good nutritional make up. Very easy to grow too. This is another source of naturally available b12 other than nutritional yeast. Maybe the next super food was right under our noses?

I think however taking a supplement is the best even for meat eaters who can can be low on b12.

What vegan athletes would be well known to the majority of sports fans.
I heard an interview once with a now vegan ex boxer who's name escapes me.
He was clear that his nutritional demands could not be met in his boxing prime from a vegan diet. Made for an interesting interview.

Cantona's Collars

I see Channel 4 promoting a show called Meat the family starting Wednesday.
What I can gather is families are given animals to bond with and are given the choice of giving up meat and sending them to a refuge or continue eating meat and sending them back to the food chain.
Contrived guilt triggering bullsh1t imo.

Xcellor

stretch film wrote: »

What vegan athletes would be well known to the majority of sports fans.
I heard an interview once with a now vegan ex boxer who's name escapes me.
He was clear that his nutritional demands could not be met in his boxing prime from a vegan diet. Made for an interesting interview.

Serena Williams / Novak djok would be two that come to mind. There are others tho. The Netflix documentary Game Changers gives some other examples some are retired now but would have observed plant based diet up to retirement. Nate Diaz MMA plant based when in competition.

Xcellor

jh79 wrote: »

Seen this in the guardian today. Seems veg, especially organic ones, don't have the same level of nutirents as they used to making meat even more important to a good diet.

Red meat plays vital role in diets, claims expert in fightback against veganism

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/jan/05/red-meat-diet-modern-vegetables-lack-nutrients-fightback-veganism?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

"“I’m not against vegetarianism or veganism,” Stanton said. “It is possible to have a balanced diet with vegetarianism. It’s a little bit more challenging but still possible with veganism. However, it requires a lot of knowledge and effort, which doesn’t happen in the majority of the population. People don’t have time to invest in getting a really balanced diet through a range of plant-based foods.”

Most non vegans don't have balanced diets either. There are huge levels of obesity/diet induced diabetes + heart disease + cancers that are more than likely linked to being overweight in Ireland.

All diets need to be planned properly. Why are people coming out and saying

"People don’t have time to invest in getting a really balanced diet through a range of plant-based foods"

When it's obvious they don't have time with the traditional diet either?

jh79

Xcellor wrote: »

"“I’m not against vegetarianism or veganism,” Stanton said. “It is possible to have a balanced diet with vegetarianism. It’s a little bit more challenging but still possible with veganism. However, it requires a lot of knowledge and effort, which doesn’t happen in the majority of the population. People don’t have time to invest in getting a really balanced diet through a range of plant-based foods.”

Most non vegans don't have balanced diets either. There are huge levels of obesity/diet induced diabetes + heart disease + cancers that are more than likely linked to being overweight in Ireland.

All diets need to be planned properly. Why are people coming out and saying

"People don’t have time to invest in getting a really balanced diet through a range of plant-based foods"

When it's obvious they don't have time with the traditional diet either?

I imagine he means in terms of nutrients rather than calorie intake.

The bit i found interesting was the claim that nutrient levels are dropping in veg especially organic veg.

Xcellor

jh79 wrote: »

I imagine he means in terms of nutrients rather than calorie intake.

The bit i found interesting was the claim that nutrient levels are dropping in veg especially organic veg.

It should be more of a concern for the traditional diet in that case which is made up of less fruit+vegetables than a vegan. The nutrients found in fruits and vegetables are not going to be supplemented by eating red meat.

Count Mondego

Xcellor wrote: »

Serena Williams / Novak djok would be two that come to mind. There are others tho. The Netflix documentary Game Changers gives some other examples some are retired now but would have observed plant based diet up to retirement. Nate Diaz MMA plant based when in competition.

Any top level athletes that have spent a lifetime on a Vegan diet? Not much good if they were eating meat all their lives, getting to the top of their profession and then being vegan for six months. Hardly proves anything once their body has been built on animal protein.

Xcellor

Count Mondego wrote: »

Any top level athletes that have spent a lifetime on a Vegan diet? Not much good if they were eating meat all their lives, getting to the top of their profession and then being vegan for six months. Hardly proves anything once their body has been built on animal protein.

Fiona Oakes has been a vegan since the age of 6.

https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/fastest-time-to-complete-a-marathon-on-each-continent-aggregate-(female)

Trailer of the documentary about her

https://runningforgoodfilm.com/#about1-section

Fascinating accomplishment.

emaherx

Xcellor wrote: »

It should be more of a concern for the traditional diet in that case which is made up of less fruit+vegetables than a vegan. The nutrients found in fruits and vegetables are not going to be supplemented by eating red meat.

Are you claiming red meat has 0 nutrional value? It's strange that on one hand you claim all the nutrients found in meat can be found in plants but on the other hand you are claiming red meat can't supplement a short fall in nutrients from plants.

Of course decreasing nutritional value should be a great concern for anyone dependent on fruit/veg for nutrients, be they vegan, vegetarian or omnivores, but I think I'd be more concerned if I envisioned a world where people are on a completely plant based diet.

Xcellor

emaherx wrote: »

Are you claiming red meat has 0 nutrional value? It's strange that on one hand you claim all the nutrients found in meat can be found in plants but on the other hand you are claiming red meat can't supplement a short fall in nutrients from plants.

Of course decreasing nutritional value should be a great concern for anyone dependent on fruit/veg for nutrients, be they vegan, vegetarian or omnivores, but I think I'd be more concerned if I envisioned a world where people are on a completely plant based diet.

No. I never said red meat has 0 nutritional value but I'd severely doubt its going to nutritionally replace whatever deficiencies are now in fruit and vegetables. The article seems to infer that because plants are becoming less nutritious - we should continue to eat red meat.

Unfortunately there is no link to the studies she is referencing to see exactly what has reduced in fruit/veg it just mentions"vitamins and key electrolytes"