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Rent freeze?

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    #92
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    I'd be surprised if landlords without mortgages didn't fare better. They don't have the expense of interest payments.

    Theres now 100% relief on mortgage interest.


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    #93
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,078 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    Theres now 100% relief on mortgage interest.

    That certainly helps but having no interest or less interest still works out better and more profitable.


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    #94
    Assetbacked
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭Assetbacked


    It's quite clear from reading threads in this forum that most tenants and landlords interests are aligned. Landlords' complaints here are about high tax and difficulty with evicting tenants. Tenants complaints are high rents and fear of being turfed out (but not for non-payment of rent).

    Making it easier to turf someone out for non-payment of rent, reducing taxes on rent for private landlords and/or incentivising renting out a room/bedsit would be a better start than a blanket freeze on increasing rent. The rent freeze is of no benefit to the apartments offered by institutionals already at unaffordable rates and won't impact new builds.


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    #95
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,078 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    Assetbacked wrote: »
    It's quite clear from reading threads in this forum that most tenants and landlords interests are aligned. Landlords' complaints here are about high tax and difficulty with evicting tenants. Tenants complaints are high rents and fear of being turfed out (but not for non-payment of rent).

    Making it easier to turf someone out for non-payment of rent, reducing taxes on rent for private landlords and/or incentivising renting out a room/bedsit would be a better start than a blanket freeze on increasing rent. The rent freeze is of no benefit to the apartments offered by institutionals already at unaffordable rates and won't impact new builds.

    I'm a tenant and I'm definitely in favour of making it easier and quicker for landlords to evict non-paying and nuisance tenants. However, reducing taxes on rents won't reduce rents in any way. If you decreased taxes for landlords tomorrow, my rent will stay the same and any new rentals that come on the market will still be at a crazy high price.


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    #96
    Assetbacked
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭Assetbacked


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    I'm a tenant and I'm definitely in favour of making it easier and quicker for landlords to evict non-paying and nuisance tenants. However, reducing taxes on rents won't reduce rents in any way. If you decreased taxes for landlords tomorrow, my rent will stay the same and any new rentals that come on the market will still be at a crazy high price.

    The reduction in tax with incentives for renting out rooms and bedsits would bring more private landlords back to the market for rentals. I'm a renter as well by the way despite the username.


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    #97
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Assetbacked wrote: »
    ...The rent freeze is of no benefit to the apartments offered by institutionals already at unaffordable rates and won't impact new builds.

    ... other LLs should sell up, and invest back in REITs. Removes all the problems and gains maximum yield. But also should diversify their investments, so its not all in housing. As who knows what happens if a REIT gets into difficulty in the future.


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    #98
    Fol20
    Registered Users Posts: 3,624 ✭✭✭Fol20


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    I'm a tenant and I'm definitely in favour of making it easier and quicker for landlords to evict non-paying and nuisance tenants. However, reducing taxes on rents won't reduce rents in any way. If you decreased taxes for landlords tomorrow, my rent will stay the same and any new rentals that come on the market will still be at a crazy high price.

    You’d actually be surprised. Yes decrease taxes today for ll will have absolutely no impact on your rent tomorrow.

    The main difference though is that it incentivises new entrants and ll to the market. More ll in market means more availability of property for you to pick from thus over time you would think more competition will mean more competitive rentals.


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    #99
    Fol20
    Registered Users Posts: 3,624 ✭✭✭Fol20


    beauf wrote: »
    ... other LLs should sell up, and invest back in REITs. Removes all the problems and gains maximum yield. But also should diversify their investments, so its not all in housing. As who knows what happens if a REIT gets into difficulty in the future.

    So you want less rentals in the market?


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    #100
    Assetbacked
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭Assetbacked


    beauf wrote: »
    ... other LLs should sell up, and invest back in REITs. Removes all the problems and gains maximum yield. But also should diversify their investments, so its not all in housing. As who knows what happens if a REIT gets into difficulty in the future.

    Who'd buy if they sold up unless they dropped their prices below what they'd probably like?


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    #101
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Fol20 wrote: »
    So you want less rentals in the market?

    That's what everything done in the last 20yrs has achieved. Why not follow the populist route.


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    #102
    Fol20
    Registered Users Posts: 3,624 ✭✭✭Fol20


    beauf wrote: »
    That's what everything done in the last 20yrs has achieved. Why not follow the populist route.

    The government are so well known for being efficient with spending and doing stuff for the good fo nation rather than plots to get votes.

    I would never count on the government to help you. It’s a bonus if they do but it’s better to count on yourself and I don’t see this going well if we go down this route.

    We need remove as much stuff from the government as possible. Just look at other nations where they have a large public workforce and how well their economy performs.


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    #103
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Fol20 wrote: »
    ...I don’t see this going well if we go down this route....

    ireland is 20 yrs going down this route. Bit late now. Horse has disappeared over the horizon.


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    #104
    The Student
    Registered Users Posts: 1,262 ✭✭✭The Student


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    I'm a tenant and I'm definitely in favour of making it easier and quicker for landlords to evict non-paying and nuisance tenants. However, reducing taxes on rents won't reduce rents in any way. If you decreased taxes for landlords tomorrow, my rent will stay the same and any new rentals that come on the market will still be at a crazy high price.

    If you extend the rent a room scheme to landlords and say no tax on for example rents up to €1000 but anything over that you pay tax on it all then you only pay €1000 rent, the landlord gets the €1000 and the state gets nothing.

    If you were paying €2000 in rent you are now paying €1000 you can save the other €1000 towards a deposit for your own place should you wish to buy.

    With the above the landlord is no worse off, the tenant is better off to the tune of €1000


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    #105
    Fol20
    Registered Users Posts: 3,624 ✭✭✭Fol20


    The Student wrote: »
    If you extend the rent a room scheme to landlords and say no tax on for example rents up to €1000 but anything over that you pay tax on it all then you only pay €1000 rent, the landlord gets the €1000 and the state gets nothing.

    If you were paying €2000 in rent you are now paying €1000 you can save the other €1000 towards a deposit for your own place should you wish to buy.

    With the above the landlord is no worse off, the tenant is better off to the tune of €1000

    What would you do with items you expense in your example?


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    #106
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    beauf wrote: »
    ireland is 20 yrs going down this route. Bit late now. Horse has disappeared over the horizon.

    Not sure what the fatalism contributes. :confused:

    Rents are too high because there are no units available, so might as well make it worse because you don't give a toss about the people on the streets or stuck with their parents for years?


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    #107
    The Student
    Registered Users Posts: 1,262 ✭✭✭The Student


    Fol20 wrote: »
    What would you do with items you expense in your example?

    You would get a tax credit for the expenses which could be used against your tax from your employment.


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    #108
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    pwurple wrote: »
    Not sure what the fatalism contributes. :confused:

    Rents are too high because there are no units available, so might as well make it worse because you don't give a toss about the people on the streets or stuck with their parents for years?

    The populist opinion would be that "professional Landlords" is what's needs.

    So therefore investing in them, would be helping everyone.


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    #109
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Its interesting how the small LLs are always the bad guy, regardless if they invest in housing, or the leave the market. Its a no win scenario.

    That in a time of extreme shortage that the vast majority of those providing supply are being encouraged to leave it, and those providing the most expensive housing are encourage to enter it, should raise questions. But it doesn't.

    Those that are shouting loudest, and having most influence are those providing no housing at all.

    Not to mention copying policy from other countries even after they've been shown to make the problem worse.
    The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.


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    #110
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,315 ✭✭✭nthclare


    The days of the common man making a killing out of bricks and mortar will be set 8n stone.

    I've mentioned my friend who's an actuary in a few posts over my time on boards and he used to laugh at people buying houses thinking they'll be set for life, living off the rent...

    I think the present moment is concrete enough evidence to the testimony of sheer gombeenism and greed.

    These guys pushing you to part with your cash are not out for your good that's for sure.

    Because it's free money for the system including huge interest.


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    #111
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Pension proved to be unreliable. Now property. What next.


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    #112
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,078 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    The Student wrote: »
    If you extend the rent a room scheme to landlords and say no tax on for example rents up to €1000 but anything over that you pay tax on it all then you only pay €1000 rent, the landlord gets the €1000 and the state gets nothing.

    If you were paying €2000 in rent you are now paying €1000 you can save the other €1000 towards a deposit for your own place should you wish to buy.

    With the above the landlord is no worse off, the tenant is better off to the tune of €1000

    I assume this works on a per property basis? If so, it doesn't work. What will happen is people will start splitting properties up into multiple different units and charging €1,000 a month for them. Now, that 2 bedroom house can earn €2,000 a month tax free.

    Or they will rent it on a room by room basis and register all the rooms as individual units. Now, that 3 bedroom apartment can earn up to €3,000 a month tax free. Sure if someone inspects it then it will be noticed what is going on but the chances of that are small so people will definitely take the risk.

    That's only 2 potential ways around it that I can think of off the top of my head. If it was actually implemented, then I'm sure people would start coming up with even more creative ways around it to increase their tax free earnings.


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    #113
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Renting a room works OK for some Landlords, particular those who like to micromanage.
    But most seem to think its problematic and avoid it. That was my impression on previous threads on it.
    Most of the hassle and micromanaging, isn't an issue if the LL is living in the same property.


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    #114
    riemann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,063 ✭✭✭riemann


    Fol20 wrote: »
    You keep hearing figures of 24k average rent on the morning show. Not sure if this is accurate or not but Doyle should have rebutted this with a working example. Let’s say the ll get 24k. We have mortgage payments of 17k incl principle pay down. Then maintenance coupled with a tax could leave you at a break even point in terms of cash flow.

    This post here sums up all that is wrong with Ireland.

    Someone complaining that they aren't making an annual profit, while someone else is paying off their loan, for an asset that they will own when the loan is repaid?

    It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.


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    #115
    marieholmfan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,744 ✭✭✭marieholmfan


    Fol20 wrote: »
    You keep hearing figures of 24k average rent on the morning show. Not sure if this is accurate or not but Doyle should have rebutted this with a working example. Let’s say the ll get 24k. We have mortgage payments of 17k incl principle pay down. Then maintenance coupled with a tax could leave you at a break even point in terms of cash flow.
    Tough Luck at the end of the process you own the asset. The state should ensure that no landlord with an outstanding mortgage can break even.


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    #116
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,078 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    nthclare wrote: »
    The days of the common man making a killing out of bricks and mortar will be set 8n stone.

    I've mentioned my friend who's an actuary in a few posts over my time on boards and he used to laugh at people buying houses thinking they'll be set for life, living off the rent...

    I think the present moment is concrete enough evidence to the testimony of sheer gombeenism and greed.

    These guys pushing you to part with your cash are not out for your good that's for sure.

    Because it's free money for the system including huge interest.
    beauf wrote: »
    Pension proved to be unreliable. Now property. What next.
    beauf wrote: »
    Renting a room works OK for some Landlords, particular those who like to micromanage.
    But most seem to think its problematic and avoid it. That was my impression on previous threads on it.
    Most of the hassle and micromanaging, isn't an issue if the LL is living in the same property.

    They would do it if it meant they could get all the income was tax free with little chance of getting caught.

    Regardless, his idea is stupid and won't work at reducing rents. Best case scenario, all properties currently rented below €1,000 a month or above ~€2,000 a month stay the same. Anything over €1,000 but close to it will probably drop in price alright but pretty much everything else between the €1,000 and €2,000 bracket will just get increased.

    So anyone renting a property that is paying rent of €1001 to maybe €1500 a month will be better off. Everyone else will either be paying the same or worse off. I know a few people paying nearly €2,000 for the places they live. His scheme will not result in them getting their rent reduced. Not to mention, this will massively reduce the tax take for the government.


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    #117
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,394 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    There is some seriously questionable logic being used to justify any further price controls on rent. The figures used to say rent has increased include newly built properties. These prices are not an increase and existing tenants aren't paying more as a result. There are still a lot of tenants on below market rents and in RPZ where it will take many years to reach current market rates.
    The RPZ we were assured would be 4 years but they changed the law again to extend it another year.
    Just read that 1 in 5 homes bought this year were new builds. So there still is a massive under supply of property being built. Prices are stalled so not a great incentive to build or even start looking for finance to build.

    Rent freeze isn't needed but if they bring it in the will have to cut all the other clauses out like refurbishment, family need and sale of property.

    You would need to crazy to think this would work or that it would actually make a difference. Effectively everyone has a 2 year rent freeze as is.


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    #118
    Fol20
    Registered Users Posts: 3,624 ✭✭✭Fol20


    riemann wrote: »
    This post here sums up all that is wrong with Ireland.

    Someone complaining that they aren't making an annual profit, while someone else is paying off their loan, for an asset that they will own when the loan is repaid?

    It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.


    If rents stayed like they are well and good but over the span of 20-30 years, prices will go up and down, how about the previous 10 years during the recession when rent was half of what it is now, combined with costs going up on average of 25pc. It would be funny if it wasnt sad.

    The whole point of investing to always look at your capital and if it can be better invested elsewhere. Why invest in property if your not making money, thats the whole point.

    It isnt someone else paying for your house either. A ll made a calculated risk with their cash and assets that they could make money doing x and y. If it was so easy why dont you try it or why doesnt everyone else do it.


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    #119
    Fol20
    Registered Users Posts: 3,624 ✭✭✭Fol20


    marieholmfan wrote: »
    Tough Luck at the end of the process you own the asset. The state should ensure that no landlord with an outstanding mortgage can break even.

    So are you saying that a business should not make a profit or break even at a minimum. I suspect you have never owned a business or have a failed business in that case.


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    #120
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,519 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    I’ve just drafted a rent review notices. I was happy to let themBe for the past while, but if freezes are in the way. I’ll be putting them up to the max permitted.


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    #121
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,078 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    Fol20 wrote: »
    So are you saying that a business should not make a profit or break even at a minimum. I suspect you have never owned a business or have a failed business in that case.

    There is a difference between profitable and cash flow positive. A person letting out a property could have to top up the rent to pay the mortgage and yet still be profitable because a large chunk of the mortgage payments are going towards paying off the house. That equity you are building up every month by paying the mortgage is profit. You just choose not to see it as such.


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