Rent freeze?

The Student

meeeeh wrote: »

Talk about being melodramatic. Rental market can ask for higher prices because of lack of supply. There is also lack of housing supply for anything. Thinking that allowing prices to spiral into the sky and leave it to the market to fix is deluded. Or you could end up importing Polish builders to build houses the same Polish builders would need to rent for market to work and make return for donkeys who watch couple of property programmes at tea time and decide they could be property investors.

Personally I don't believe social housing should be left to private sector to deal with but at the same time private sector should be properly regulated and professionally led. I'm not actually in favour of rent freeze but I am in favour of rent control. It should not encourage amateurs who need constant stream of rent into their account to actually meet their mortgage repayments.

Let me pose one question then, if the rental market is so attractive and so lucrative where "donkeys" can make returns for doing nothing why are they leaving the sector in their droves.

You want the market (not sector) professionally led, if the Govt continues with its strategy you will get what you want, but those who rent in it will pay for dearly for it.

Rent controls don't work, there is plenty of evidence to support this in other property markets, but lets introduce them and see whats happens, sure we are so much more progressive than those countries who have a more mature rental market than ours.

RCSATELLITES

"It should not encourage amateurs who need constant stream of rent into their account to actually meet their mortgage repayments.:

That's goes for your profession aswell then. A landlord is a profession in a business of supplying rental properties. When people get that into their thick heads then it will be ok. Landlords don't run a charity for people that can't afford rent. When there is a lack of supply the rent goes up when there is a lot of supply rents go down, common sense really.

meeeeh

The Student wrote: »

Let me pose one question then, if the rental market is so attractive and so lucrative where "donkeys" can make returns for doing nothing why are they leaving the sector in their droves.

Correction donkeys think they can make returns... Rental market is one of the few businesses where people think they are qualified without any experience.

As for rent controls not working. Vienna is a city with excellent quality of life and hugely regulated and subsidized rental sector. Vast majority of people there rent. It's considered one of the best cities to live in. Similarly I think in Scandi countries.

You are repeating how rent controls don't work. Would that be in English speaking world because anywhere else doesn't exist?

mgn

meeeeh wrote: »

Correction donkeys think they can make returns... Rental market is one of the few businesses where people think they are qualified without any experience.

As for rent controls not working. Vienna is a city with excellent quality of life and hugely regulated and subsidized rental sector. Vast majority of people there rent. It's considered one of the best cities to live in. Similarly I think in Scandi countries.

You are repeating how rent controls don't work. Would that be in English speaking world because anything anywhere else doesn't exist?

And what qualifications does the donkey who come up with this idea of a rent freeze have, none, but it might get them a few extra votes in the next election.
These are the type of idiots that make things worse .

The Student

meeeeh wrote: »

Correction donkeys think they can make returns... Rental market is one of the few businesses where people think they are qualified without any experience.

As for rent controls not working. Vienna is a city with excellent quality of life and hugely regulated and subsidized rental sector. Vast majority of people there rent. It's considered one of the best cities to live in. Similarly I think in Scandi countries.

You are repeating how rent controls don't work. Would that be in English speaking world because anywhere else doesn't exist?

Who pays for the subsidized rental sector so? Do you have rent arrears in Vienna similar to those we have in our already subsidized social housing? If yes how are they dealt with.

Did I reference anywhere in any of my posts about English speaking world only?

Colking

meeeeh wrote: »

Correction donkeys think they can make returns... Rental market is one of the few businesses where people think they are qualified without any experience.

As for rent controls not working. Vienna is a city with excellent quality of life and hugely regulated and subsidized rental sector. Vast majority of people there rent. It's considered one of the best cities to live in. Similarly I think in Scandi countries.

You are repeating how rent controls don't work. Would that be in English speaking world because anywhere else doesn't exist?

You'll need to do a bit more research to come up with a rent control winner ...


Excerpt :

All units in buildings built after 1945 are exempt from rent controls, and–oddly–units created after 1945 inside a building built prior to 1945 are also exempted. As part of the urban renewal program, many attics in pre-1945 buildings were converted into apartment units. Because these converted attics were created after 1945, they are not subject to rent controls, even though the rest of the building’s units are. So in a building built prior to 1945, the sunny front units might get one price, the dreary rear units a second, a unit with slightly greater square footage a third, a unit with upgraded cabinetry a fourth, and the converted attic is unregulated. Often, a single building is subject to multiple different rent regulations.

And among the 66,000 units that are exempted from rent controls, some are subject to government oversight. A tenant could petition the city government to decide whether or not the rent she is being charged is “fair.” The city can force the landlord to lower those rents to what they consider “fair.”

In sum, Funk estimates that rent regulations are so complicated that only 30-40 people actually understand the system well enough to advise real estate investors.

Link to full article : http://milwaukeeclt.org/2017/07/10/how-vienna-ensures-affordable-housing-with-an-extremely-complicated-housing-system/

You're seriously proposing that an Irish Government could manage something like this ? :eek:

beauf

In Vienna social housing was never privatised, 45% of the housing market is subsidised and 60% of the population lives in subsidised or social housing.

Vienna has a lot of complex rules. Private rents in Vienna are rising. But they didn't dump their social housing into the private rental market.

Also their property prices were largely effected by the rise and fall of foreign investment from Russia.

The Student

Colking wrote: »

You'll need to do a bit more research to come up with a rent control winner ...


Excerpt :

All units in buildings built after 1945 are exempt from rent controls, and–oddly–units created after 1945 inside a building built prior to 1945 are also exempted. As part of the urban renewal program, many attics in pre-1945 buildings were converted into apartment units. Because these converted attics were created after 1945, they are not subject to rent controls, even though the rest of the building’s units are. So in a building built prior to 1945, the sunny front units might get one price, the dreary rear units a second, a unit with slightly greater square footage a third, a unit with upgraded cabinetry a fourth, and the converted attic is unregulated. Often, a single building is subject to multiple different rent regulations.

And among the 66,000 units that are exempted from rent controls, some are subject to government oversight. A tenant could petition the city government to decide whether or not the rent she is being charged is “fair.” The city can force the landlord to lower those rents to what they consider “fair.”

In sum, Funk estimates that rent regulations are so complicated that only 30-40 people actually understand the system well enough to advise real estate investors.

Link to full article : http://milwaukeeclt.org/2017/07/10/how-vienna-ensures-affordable-housing-with-an-extremely-complicated-housing-system/

You're seriously proposing that an Irish Government could manage something like this ? :eek:

Now now stop muddying the waters with facts!

beauf

meeeeh wrote: »

... Rental market is one of the few businesses where people think they are qualified without any experience ...

If the sole criteria to be qualified is experience. Its a catch 22 because you can't get experience, without already having it.

Old diesel

The amateur/professional thing.......

Getting experience - in other businesses like say haulage you might start off driving the truck and things like that and learning the industry before you buy your first Scania.

You don't just do your Artic test on Monday morning and buy your V8 Scania on Monday afternoon.

You also don't do trucks as a sideline to your main business unless that business happens to need trucks and it's handy to have one of your own.

Housing is too important to be reliant on the random decision making of someone who owns one investment property.

Professionalism in housing would mean to me that youve got people in the housing provision business whose profession is housing.

Who want to be in housing provision for their career.

Who have housing provision set ups that continue even after they leave the sector.

Like a lot of things - professionalism might not be all it's cracked up to be. See for example REITs.

What we need to get to imo is long term commited suppliers to the market of cost effective housing.

Yes the Govt might need to support the sector at different times.

meeeeh

The Student wrote: »

Now now stop muddying the waters with facts!

The fact same article states it's cheap and affordable and it works for majority of people who live there. What facts did you provide except free market economic theory used in the 18th century?

The Student

meeeeh wrote: »

The fact same article states it's cheap and affordable and it works for majority of people. What facts did you provide except free market economic theory used in the 18th century.

I give up. Free market economic theory still exists today and always will in every market (not sector).

You either refuse/or are unable to accept that the current housing situation in Ireland and in a lot more other countries either (a) needs capital investment by the State (which the Irish Govt can't do because of our IMF bailout) or (b) needs the private sector whether you like it or not. If the Govt continue to interfere with the market (not the sector) then the market will react accordingly.

Good idea that the Govt discourages investment by the very people that they need to invest to go some way to solving the housing crisis.

You might disprove the other posters excerpt and findings with your own excerpts for a reliable source rather than just randomly responding to factual evidence.

beauf

Old diesel wrote: »

The amateur/professional thing.......

Getting experience - in other businesses like say haulage you might start off driving the truck and things like that and learning the industry before you buy your first Scania.

You don't just do your Artic test on Monday morning and buy your V8 Scania on Monday afternoon.

You also don't do trucks as a sideline to your main business unless that business happens to need trucks and it's handy to have one of your own.....

Driving a truck does not teach you the business of haulage transport.
If you work never drove a truck but ran a similar business, that teaches you more about running a business.

Especially since the context was about managing repayments, finances basically, cash flow. Running a business in short.
Not that people want it run like a business. They want it run like a loss making charity.

beauf

meeeeh wrote: »

The fact same article states it's cheap and affordable and it works for majority of people who live there. What facts did you provide except free market economic theory used in the 18th century?

Social housing built and maintained by the govt is cheap and works for the majority here also.

Old diesel

beauf wrote: »

Driving a truck does not teach you the business of haulage transport.
If you work never drove a truck but ran a similar business, that teaches you more about running a business.

Especially since the context was about managing repayments, finances basically, cash flow. Running a business in short.
Not that people want it run like a business. They want it run like a loss making charity.

Many haulage businesses started off with the owner being what the industry calls an owner driver.

Meaning you buy your first truck and do the driving of it yourself. That's how many haulage businesses start.

(Edit) a guy drives a truck for someone else and decides he wants to drive his OWN truck (edit)

The point is that you don't just buy a Scania off the street on a whim with absolutely no background in trucking and go off to the continent hauling loads in it.

But people bought houses to rent like that thinking they were going to make money.

On the loss making charity thing......

The market seems to want people to keep feeding money to pay rent that they just cant afford.

People think they are already paying enough and can't magic up money just like that to pay more.

To someone not familiar with landlords arguements it looks like they are paying 1800 euro a month into this big black hole and yet they are told it's not enough.

beauf

Old diesel wrote: »

...The point is that you don't just buy a Scania off the street on a whim with absolutely no background in trucking and go off to the continent hauling loads in it...

But you'd have no experience in paying for the truck, and it was the financial side of it that sparked that discussion.

beauf

Old diesel wrote: »

....
On the loss making charity thing......The market seems to want people to keep feeding money to pay rent that they just cant afford. People think they are already paying enough and can't magic up money just like that to pay more. To someone not familiar with landlords arguements it looks like they are paying 1800 euro a month into this big black hole and yet they are told it's not enough...

To someone not familiar with the tenants argument, they want new regulations, new "professional LL's", security of tenure, better standard of accommodation, much of it requires new builds, and old stock to be retired. Pretty much got everything they asked for. Except they want to pay less, or in many cases nothing for this.

Well you have got what you asked for. Except that last bit.

meeeeh

beauf wrote: »

To someone not familiar with the tenants argument, they want new regulations, new "professional LL's", security of tenure, better standard of accommodation, much of it requires new builds, and old stock to be retired. Pretty much got everything they asked for. Except they want to pay less, or in many cases nothing for this.

Well you have got what you asked for. Except that last bit.

And the last bit won't be solved by postman renting out an apartment and needing a bailout everytime someone doesn't pay rent. The last time non-professional landlords were encouraged to buy investment property the bailout was needed. How anyone would think that will solve rental market is beyond me.

beauf

Do you mean the banks bailout?

banks having too much exposure to one source of risk.... Inadequate and/or lax supervision of the Irish banking system had allowed excessive borrowing by the Irish Banks on the corporate and international money markets.

When the bank bailout happened rents were at their lowest. So in fact the crash and bailout gave exactly that, lower rents.

https://www.daft.ie/report/ronan-lyons-2016q3-rental

The other issue is supply.

IRELAND INCREASED ITS housing stock by 8,800 units between 2011 and 2016, compared to over 201,000 from roughly the same period a decade ago.

A Census 2016 special profile on housing in Ireland found that the country increased its housing supply by just 0.4% in the five-year period of 2011 to 2016 (from 1,994,845 million units to 2,003,645 million units).

This is in stark contrast to the change in Ireland’s housing stock between 2002 and 2006, when the number of units grew by 21.2%. In that time, housing stock increased from 1,460,053 million to 1,769,613 million.

Meanwhile, Ireland’s population was recorded at 4,761,865 in the last Census. That’s compared to 4,588,252 in 2011.

https://www.thejournal.ie/housing-census-3348618-Apr2017/

beauf

Curious how you're blaming the postmen for the bank bailout. I didn't know postmen buying massive amounts of property was a thing.

https://www.payscale.com/research/IE/Job=Postman/Salary

I though it was more people like builders, tradesmen, professional people with high wages, or high cashflow. Who wouldn't get a state pension so invested in property instead.

mgn

Old diesel wrote: »

Many haulage businesses started off with the owner being what the industry calls an owner driver.

Meaning you buy your first truck and do the driving of it yourself. That's how many haulage businesses start.

(Edit) a guy drives a truck for someone else and decides he wants to drive his OWN truck (edit)

The point is that you don't just buy a Scania off the street on a whim with absolutely no background in trucking and go off to the continent hauling loads in it.

But people bought houses to rent like that thinking they were going to make money.

On the loss making charity thing......

The market seems to want people to keep feeding money to pay rent that they just cant afford.

People think they are already paying enough and can't magic up money just like that to pay more.

To someone not familiar with landlords arguements it looks like they are paying 1800 euro a month into this big black hole and yet they are told it's not enough.

If you go off in your new lorry and some client stops paying you, it very easy to stop working for that client, your not forced to keep working for them, unlike a tenant who stops paying rent and keep on living there for up to a year rent free and the likes of PRTB will do nothing for you.

RCSATELLITES

Old diesel wrote: »

Many haulage businesses started off with the owner being what the industry calls an owner driver.

Meaning you buy your first truck and do the driving of it yourself. That's how many haulage businesses start.

(Edit) a guy drives a truck for someone else and decides he wants to drive his OWN truck (edit)

The point is that you don't just buy a Scania off the street on a whim with absolutely no background in trucking and go off to the continent hauling loads in it.

But people bought houses to rent like that thinking they were going to make money.

On the loss making charity thing......

The market seems to want people to keep feeding money to pay rent that they just cant afford.

People think they are already paying enough and can't magic up money just like that to pay more.

To someone not familiar with landlords arguements it looks like they are paying 1800 euro a month into this big black hole and yet they are told it's not enough.

Alot of Landlords use estate agencies to find tenants and set up contracts and take care of the property. So someone that has a lump sum of money can also buy a truck and get a experienced person to manage the truck or haulage business workout having any experience in it and it could be the best haulage company in the world.

Also who are these people that can't afford rent. The pubs are full and the shops are emptied of stock, there's a lot of new cars driving about. The average wage in Dublin is around 50k and most properties have 2 working adults.

The problem is people got used to paying smaller rent during the recession and now when the rent is the correct amount people are complaining.

Fol20

RCSATELLITES wrote: »

Alot of Landlords use estate agencies to find tenants and set up contracts and take care of the property. So someone that has a lump sum of money can also buy a truck and get a experienced person to manage the truck or haulage business workout having any experience in it and it could be the best haulage company in the world.

Also who are these people that can't afford rent. The pubs are full and the shops are emptied of stock, there's a lot of new cars driving about. The average wage in Dublin is around 50k and most properties have 2 working adults.

The problem is people got used to paying smaller rent during the recession and now when the rent is the correct amount people are complaining.

I both disagree and agree with some of your comments. Your right nowadays a lot people purchase non necessities and their expectations of their lifestyle can be well beyond their means. Case in point pcp and loans on cars when their 3/5/10 year old car is perfectly fine.

Rent now is above pre recession levels. I know in some of my places they are 300-500 euro more per month pre 2008 levels. I’m not sure if rent is the “correct” amount now but I will say that supply vs demand coupled with all of the extra fees and legislation that go into property management are exacerbating the situation.

Parentalunit

A rent freeze is such a blunt instrument. Those who are charging under the market rent can't increase and those charging above the market rent can continue to do so. A fairer system would be to try to equalize rents at a fair rent for similar properties and then allow rent increases corresponding to wage increases.

handlemaster

Parentalunit wrote: »

A rent freeze is such a blunt instrument. Those who are charging under the market rent can't increase and those charging above the market rent can continue to do so. A fairer system would be to try to equalize rents at a fair rent for similar properties and then allow rent increases corresponding to wage increases.

The rent to wage increase would not be fair. Trade prices fro repairs shoot up like now when demand is high. But the general wage would not move so rapidly. Therefore the LL has higher costs not reflected with the rent been matched to the median wage increase

riclad

I read an article , it said if there,s any more rent freeze,s it will result
in a halt to any new apartment building in ireland.
We need more supply, anything that discourages investors or landlords
is bad fro the housing supply.
the problem is lack of supply and the increase in population since 2008.

Fol20

Well, this has directly hurt all my tenants.. I have sent rent increases to all of my tenants. I wasnt going to do this as even though RPZ is bad, it still allowed me to increase by x percent after a tenant leave but this is a direct kick in the teeth for good ll.

Assetbacked

Tax the institutionals more, incentivise the small time landlord and we could be steering our way out of the worst housing crisis in history. This crisis has meant that any economic recovery has been artificial, which is sad as more people are working. Murphy goes for lovely presentations and lunches with the very institutional vested interests he should be ignoring, utter spoof and corrupt individual.

beauf

The market, population and probably culture has been irrevocably changed over the last couple of decades. It has become more like London or somewhere like that. Expect similar trends as somewhere like that when it comes to housing and transport.

the_syco

Assetbacked wrote: »

Tax the institutionals more

Yes. This. Give any REITs who are thinking of building apartments in Ireland a reason not to! /s