Irish Language

Imreoir2

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

You should probably read a post before responding to it

I did read the post. Using duolinguo does not make you fluent in a language. I would be astounded if that poster gained any kind of fluency in Irish from flicking through duolinguo on the Luas now and again.

ohnonotgmail

Imreoir2 wrote: »

I did read the post. Using duolinguo does not make you fluent in a language. I would be astounded if that poster gained any kind of fluency in Irish from flicking through duolinguo on the Luas now and again.

Just becasue you don't bother with Irish does not mean it is not there. It just means that you have been ignoring it.

I would class trying to learn with duolingo as "bothering with irish". would you not? The poster made an effort to learn irish and you just give him grief.

machaseh

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Sorry, but this is nonsence. People do speak Irish, you just don't notice it. Most of us don't go around wearing a fáinne and telling everyone we happen to bump into of our language skills. Irish speakers are essentially an invisable minority. We look like everyone else and unless we happen to be speaking Irish at a given moment then we just blend into the crowd and people assume we belong to the English speaking majority and it seems like no one speaks Irish.

If you don't know Irish, you are not very likely to recognise it when you hear it in passing. How often do you hear people speaking a different language without identifying which language they are speaking. Most of the time you just tune other people out if you are not involved in their conversation. I remember sitting in a café chatting to some non-Irish speaking friends while a large group of people (nearly half of the other people in the café) were loudly conversing in Irish at the next table. After about 20 minutes of this I asked my friends if they had noticed what language was being spoken right next to us and not one of them had.

I do in fact know a little bit of irish, I know some basic words and phrases and I can read some of it, though I wouldn't say I speak irish or have any conversational fluency beyond is beag liom gaeilge and go raibh maith agat and the like. I definitely recognize Irish when I hear it, because I did hear it in other parts of the country that are not Dublin, albeit extremely extremely rarely. Mostly places that are famous for their irish language percentage, such as Inishmore Island.

It does. Your local ETB should have subsidized adult education, including Irish classes, available in your local Adult Education Centre.

Would you have any links regarding that? I live in Phibsboro Dublin, and if I could get subsidized Irish classes I would most certainly start to attend them. Good way to meet some irish people and escape my 'expat bubble' a bit.

Imreoir2

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I would class trying to learn with duolingo as "bothering with irish". would you not? The poster made an effort to learn irish and you just give him grief.

I give him grief for making false claims, not for his efforts to lean a bit of Irish. I might be wrong but the impression I got from the poster is that their efforts did not get much beyond a fairly surface level. To be clear millions of people "learn" Irish on duolinguo, flicking through an app for a bit does not mean much when it comes to learning a language.

To be clear, I'm not criticising the guy for not doing enough to learn Irish. It's nice that they gave duolinguo a go. The point is that whatever efforts they may have made, they almost certainly do not speak the language to any degree of competance, which explains why they never hear it around them. They just don't recognise it when they do.

ohnonotgmail

Imreoir2 wrote: »

I give him grief for making false claims, not for his efforts to lean a bit of Irish. I might be wrong but the impression I got from the poster is that their efforts did not get much beyond a fairly surface level. To be clear millions of people "learn" Irish on duolinguo, flicking through an app for a bit does not mean much when it comes to learning a language.

To be clear, I'm not criticising the guy for not doing enough to learn Irish. It's nice that they gave duolinguo a go. The point is that whatever efforts they may have made, they almost certainly do not speak the language to any degree of competance, which explains why they never hear it around them. They just don't recognise it when they do.

You assume he made false claims. they say they can recognise it when it is spoken as they have noticed it in other parts of the country. They sound more credible that you. It is no wonder that irish is lying in the gutter when you have gaeilgoirs like you accusing people who want to learn the language of lying.

Imreoir2

machaseh wrote: »

I definitely recognize Irish when I hear it, because I did hear it in other parts of the country that are not Dublin, albeit extremely extremely rarely. Mostly places that are famous for their irish language percentage, such as Inishmore Island.

Perhaps you do on occasion, but you definitely don't recognise it most of the time. The reality is that everyone tunes out most other people when they are talking unless they are involved in the conversation. It just becomes white noise in the background. Try it the next time you are out and about, it's actually very hard to recognise what is being said in other peoples conversations if they are more than a few feet away from you, even when you are trying to do it. When you are not even thinking about it as you go about your business, it just passes you by without you ever realising it.

Would you have any links regarding that? I live in Phibsboro Dublin, and if I could get subsidized Irish classes I would most certainly start to attend them. Good way to meet some irish people and escape my 'expat bubble' a bit.

You should be able to get your local Adult Education Centre here.

http://cityofdublin.etb.ie/schools-and-centres/adult-education-centres-2/

Imreoir2

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

You assume he made false claims. they say they can recognise it when it is spoken as they have noticed it in other parts of the country. They sound more credible that you. It is no wonder that irish is lying in the gutter when you have gaeilgoirs like you accusing people who want to learn the language of lying.

Their claim cannot be true, no human being can do what that poster is claiming. It is impossible to pick out what is being said in the white noise of multiple conversations around you even if you are trying to do it, never mind thinking that you will always notice if Irish or any language is being spoken near you as you go about your everyday business. You notice on occasion becasue you pick up on a word you know that was said loudly and clearly, but most of the time you do not. Most of the time you can't actually make out what people are saying.

Any person will pass people speaking Irish and not recognise that the people they passed were speaking Irish. That is what happens to you 99.9% of the time regardless of the language the other people are speaking.

machaseh

Imreoir2 wrote: »

I give him grief for making false claims, not for his efforts to lean a bit of Irish. I might be wrong but the impression I got from the poster is that their efforts did not get much beyond a fairly surface level. To be clear millions of people "learn" Irish on duolinguo, flicking through an app for a bit does not mean much when it comes to learning a language.

To be clear, I'm not criticising the guy for not doing enough to learn Irish. It's nice that they gave duolinguo a go. The point is that whatever efforts they may have made, they almost certainly do not speak the language to any degree of competance, which explains why they never hear it around them. They just don't recognise it when they do.

Remind me to never speak with people like you even if I achieve native level fluency in irish one day.

Omackeral

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Quite a few Irish people speak Irish

Some amount of people lie about speaking it. I do not believe that 66% of the country can speak the native tongue. I wouldn't say I'm fluent myself, either, but I can speak it to a degree. If you were to speak to me as gaeilge, I'd probably need you to go slowly and I might ask you to repeat yourself a few times. I think you're only fooling yourself if you mark YES on the census when all you can do is ask if you can go to the toilet. I'd resent that statistic even more if I was a fully fledged gaeilgeoir.

I've nobody in my circle that speaks it. It would be a labour of love if I was to go for it full on. At the moment I'm learning Spanish and have gotten a lot more use out of it. For example it's helped with hospitality or, better yet, when the other person hasn't had great English. You'll never have that issue when it comes to Irish speakers, they'll always have English too.

Omackeral

Imreoir2 wrote: »

They almost certainly do not speak the language to any degree of competance, which explains why they never hear it around them. They just don't recognise it when they do.

I speak it to a passable standard. I never really hear it spoken casually out and about in Dublin.

EmmetSpiceland

Omackeral wrote: »

Some amount of people lie about speaking it. I do not believe that 66% of the country can speak the native tongue. I wouldn't say I'm fluent myself, either, but I can speak it to a degree. If you were to speak to me as gaeilge, I'd probably need you to go slowly and I might ask you to repeat yourself a few times. I think you're only fooling yourself if you mark YES on the census when all you can do is ask if you can go to the toilet. I'd resent that statistic even more if I was a fully fledged gaeilgeoir.

The same ones are selecting “Catholic” as their religion when they probably don’t even make it to Christmas mass these days.

The question around Irish should be more around your standard of Irish, we can all ask to go to the toilet or string a few phases together but asking “can you speak Irish yes/no” is rubbish because nearly everyone would answer that with “I can...but”.

machaseh

Omackeral wrote: »

I speak it to a passable standard. I never really hear it spoken casually out and about in Dublin.

Of course not because even the very few people that do have native level irish proficiency (like one of my friends who is from Donegal) hardly ever actually speak it in day to day life.

And the notion that I would be too dumb to recognize spoken irish is baffling, especially considering that I have been living in Ireland for 2 years and do have a passing knowledge of some simple words and phrases. It's not like I have absolutely 0,0% Irish.


The languages that I most often hear in the streets here in Dublin are, aside from English, Brazilian Portuguese (which I happen to be fluent in), Polish and other slavic languages (which I admittedly cannot always tell apart), Croatian (I recognize that one as I know a plethora of Croatians) and Spanish (similar enough to my portuguese). Aside from that a very wide variety of languages are heard every day, but Irish is not one of them.

Oasis1974

I know a few words of Irish and a few phrases that stuck from school. Terrible to have it forced on students as a mandatory subject still. Plenty of other subjects could easily take its place.

BarryD2

Bobblehats wrote: »

Should be mandatory. English can get picked up in our spare time due to being promoted more / encouraged

If we spoke our language we could at least justify the republic prefix just a bit. Which at the moment appears laughable

Sure, every school should be a Gaelscoil and all state services should be delivered through Irish. That'd soon sort out many of our issues.

gifted

Is it a coincidence that the niall boylan show is talking about the Irish language now on his show?....

Stevieluvsye

Omackeral wrote: »

Some amount of people lie about speaking it. I do not believe that 66% of the country can speak the native tongue. I wouldn't say I'm fluent myself, either, but I can speak it to a degree. If you were to speak to me as gaeilge, I'd probably need you to go slowly and I might ask you to repeat yourself a few times. I think you're only fooling yourself if you mark YES on the census when all you can do is ask if you can go to the toilet. I'd resent that statistic even more if I was a fully fledged gaeilgeoir.

I've nobody in my circle that speaks it. It would be a labour of love if I was to go for it full on. At the moment I'm learning Spanish and have gotten a lot more use out of it. For example it's helped with hospitality or, better yet, when the other person hasn't had great English. You'll never have that issue when it comes to Irish speakers, they'll always have English too.

True what you wrote above Mack.

I went to a bunscoil & meanscoil and although i could still hold somewhat of a convo as Gaeilge i wouldn't class myself as fluent anymore. Same with French as it was so much easier picking up a new language when you studied everything in Irish

Snow Garden

machaseh wrote: »

Remind me to never speak with people like you even if I achieve native level fluency in irish one day.

Gaelgoirs tend to be very arrogant. It stems from them feeling more Irish that other Irish people. Its a relatively new thing and has has very sectarian attributes.

Stevieluvsye

Snow Garden wrote: »

Gaelgoirs tend to be very arrogant. It stems from them feeling more Irish that other Irish people. Its a relatively new thing and has has very sectarian attributes.

Maybe moreso with the older generation but i don't find that with millenials

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Sorry, but this is nonsence. People do speak Irish, you just don't notice it. Most of us don't go around wearing a fáinne and telling everyone we happen to bump into of our language skills. Irish speakers are essentially an invisable minority. We look like everyone else and unless we happen to be speaking Irish at a given moment then we just blend into the crowd and people assume we belong to the English speaking majority and it seems like no one speaks Irish.

No, it’s not nonsense. Irish is rarely to be heard spoken anywhere in Ireland outside the few lightly-populated Gaeltacht pockets. You’re trying to dupe that poster by using their non-Irishness against them to claim they just don’t recognise Irish when it’s been spoken. They are right on the money.

Imreoir2

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

No, it’s not nonsense. Irish is rarely to be heard spoken anywhere in Ireland outside the few lightly-populated Gaeltacht pockets. You’re trying to dupe that poster by using their non-Irishness against them to claim they just don’t recognise Irish when it’s been spoken. They are right on the money.

Yes, the idea that nobody ever speaks Irish is nonsense. It is nonsence of the highest order.

That the poster is from another country is beside the point entirely, their experience is much the same as any average Irish person. Your average Irish person is no more likely to recognise Irish when heard in passing because human beings rarely recognise what is being said in other conversations heard in passing, especially if that conversation is in a language they do not speak themselves.

Not noticing Irish being spoken regularly is not surprising, it is entirely normal. That does not mean that Irish is not being spoken, it just means that as a normal human being you are not noticing it. None of us go around all day eavesdropping on every passer by trying to hear what they are saying or what language they are speaking. It would be very odd indeed if they, you or I were able to pick out every or even a significant fraction of the instances when a language you don't speak yourself was being spoken nearby as you go about your daily business. The fact that people habitually ignore something does not then mean that the thing does not exist.

It's an effect something akin to casual raceism, it happens all the time, but most people other than the victem don't notice it. You might notice it happening on occasion, but most of the time it passes you by becasue it is not aimed at you.

Imreoir2

Omackeral wrote: »

Some amount of people lie about speaking it. I do not believe that 66% of the country can speak the native tongue. I wouldn't say I'm fluent myself, either, but I can speak it to a degree. If you were to speak to me as gaeilge, I'd probably need you to go slowly and I might ask you to repeat yourself a few times. I think you're only fooling yourself if you mark YES on the census when all you can do is ask if you can go to the toilet. I'd resent that statistic even more if I was a fully fledged gaeilgeoir.

Who is asking you to believe that 66% of the country speak Irish?

The problem is that the census in the past only gave a yes or no choice. For many people with a conversational level, or nearly conversational level of Irish, do you tick no, ignoring that you can actually speak Irish to some degree, or do you tick yes and risk pretending that you are totally fluent?
Pretty much anyone who lives in Ireland will be able to do more than merely ask where the toilet is in Irish, and yet more than half tick the no box in the census. I doubt there are many people ticking yes when all they can do is ask if they can go to the toilet.

At least for the next census, there will be a further option to allow people to break down their ability. You can tick no Irish, or yes but only a little, or yes reasonably well, or yes fluently. That should give a clearer picture.

Imreoir2

machaseh wrote: »

Remind me to never speak with people like you even if I achieve native level fluency in irish one day.

Explain this, what do you mean "people like you"?
Do you get the impression that I am being unfair or dismissive in my assessment of the posters efforts to learn Irish based on what they wrote?

Perhaps I am wrong and the poster has made a greater effort than I gave them credit for, if so then I did not mean offence to them, that is just the impression I got from what they wrote. Again, I'm not trying to criticise the poster for not making enough effort. I don't expect the poster to make any effort, what they do with their free time is their own business and god knows there are more enjoyable things to do than learn a language.

If you do not get the impression that I am being unfairly dismissive of their efforts based on the limited information provided in their post, then what exactly is wrong with stating the reality that someone that does not speak a language well is not all that likely to recognise it when they hear it in passing?

Imreoir2

Omackeral wrote: »

I speak it to a passable standard. I never really hear it spoken casually out and about in Dublin.

Of course not, you are (presumably) a normal human being. Why do people think they should always recognise what language random passers by are speaking? In the vast majority of cases you or anyone take not the slighest bit of notice what random passers by are saying or what language they are using.

On occasion you notice what other people are saying, or that they are speaking a different language, but almost all of the time you don't. That's the way people are.

Omackeral

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Who is asking you to believe that 66% of the country speak Irish?

The Census is. Anyway, I was giving an opinion.

As for your idea that people won't pick up on others speaking Irish... well in my experience that's poppycock. Maybe you yourself don't. That's fine. You don't get to decide for everyone though. I've heard Brazilians having the chats in Portuguese when I go out, a few Polish contractors at work gossiping in their language and Chinese neighbours on the road giving out to their kid. I don't know what they're saying but I know the sounds of their accents due to exposure of being around people and taking an interest in what goes on around me. If I heard a couple of students yammering on in Irish, I'd pick up on it.

machaseh

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Explain this, what do you mean "people like you"?
Do you get the impression that I am being unfair or dismissive in my assessment of the posters efforts to learn Irish based on what they wrote?

Perhaps I am wrong and the poster has made a greater effort than I gave them credit for, if so then I did not mean offence to them, that is just the impression I got from what they wrote. Again, I'm not trying to criticise the poster for not making enough effort. I don't expect the poster to make any effort, what they do with their free time is their own business and god knows there are more enjoyable things to do than learn a language.

If you do not get the impression that I am being unfairly dismissive of their efforts based on the limited information provided in their post, then what exactly is wrong with stating the reality that someone that does not speak a language well is not all that likely to recognise it when they hear it in passing?

The poster you are talking about is myself and it is absolutely ludicrous to assume that people don't notice what languages people around them are speaking, as I noted above. In fact if I hear people speaking a language of which I do not know what it is (which is quite rare for me honestly) I will pay extra close attention to try and make out what language it is. Generally that is not Irish in Dublin, but rather a plethora of different languages from Asia/India/Africa etc.

I have only once heard an Irish person speak in Irish anywhere near Dublin and that was a man asking 'an bhfuil gaeilge agat?' to an elderly man and then they had a very brief banter and that was it they switched back to English, this happened in Howth.

Tony EH

Irish is dying. It's on life support and has been for years. People who love the language need to learn to reason with that reality and stop trying to fool themselves, and others into a false belief that it's a thriving language.

It isn't.

Most of the people in this country pursue it as a dilettante activity and they speak it badly, with a child's level of conversation and, worse than that, there are others who use it as a way to look down their noses at people that don't speak it <- the worst type of Gaelgoir tosspot.

There are few people who pursue the learning of the language for reasons of purely learning the once mother tongue of the nation. I have only met several people who are absolutely fluent in the language that understand that it's an academic interest that gives them personal joy, but that it will never be spoken in any way near approaching a main language again.

FunLover18

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Yes, the idea that nobody ever speaks Irish is nonsense. It is nonsence of the highest order.

That the poster is from another country is beside the point entirely, their experience is much the same as any average Irish person. Your average Irish person is no more likely to recognise Irish when heard in passing because human beings rarely recognise what is being said in other conversations heard in passing, especially if that conversation is in a language they do not speak themselves.

Not noticing Irish being spoken regularly is not surprising, it is entirely normal. That does not mean that Irish is not being spoken, it just means that as a normal human being you are not noticing it. None of us go around all day eavesdropping on every passer by trying to hear what they are saying or what language they are speaking. It would be very odd indeed if they, you or I were able to pick out every or even a significant fraction of the instances when a language you don't speak yourself was being spoken nearby as you go about your daily business. The fact that people habitually ignore something does not then mean that the thing does not exist.

It's an effect something akin to casual raceism, it happens all the time, but most people other than the victem don't notice it. You might notice it happening on occasion, but most of the time it passes you by becasue it is not aimed at you.

If a person speaks Irish but there is no one around to hear, do they speak Irish?

facehugger99

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Yes, the idea that nobody ever speaks Irish is nonsense. It is nonsence of the highest order.

I haven't heard Irish being spoken out and about in over 30 years.

People like yourself have done more to ensure its demise than the English ever managed.

It's a dead language being kept artificially alive only through the spunking of millions every year from the public-purse.

Omackeral

facehugger99 wrote: »

I haven't heard Irish being spoken out and about in over 30 years.

No, you have. It's just that you don't know you have.






Or something like that.

Snow Garden

facehugger99 wrote: »

I haven't heard Irish being spoken out and about in over 30 years.

People like yourself have done more to ensure its demise than the English ever managed.

It's a dead language being kept artificially alive only through the spunking of millions every year from the public-purse.

In the New Republic, you will be sent to a camp for re-conditioning and re-education.

Imreoir2

machaseh wrote: »

The poster you are talking about is myself and it is absolutely ludicrous to assume that people don't notice what languages people around them are speaking, as I noted above. In fact if I hear people speaking a language of which I do not know what it is (which is quite rare for me honestly) I will pay extra close attention to try and make out what language it is. Generally that is not Irish in Dublin, but rather a plethora of different languages from Asia/India/Africa etc.

I have only once heard an Irish person speak in Irish anywhere near Dublin and that was a man asking 'an bhfuil gaeilge agat?' to an elderly man and then they had a very brief banter and that was it they switched back to English, this happened in Howth.

My appologies, hard to keep track. But please, do explain your comment.

Do people notice what language others are speaking on occasion, sure. Do they notice all of the time, absoutly not. If you are claiming that you are able to recognise the language being used in every conversation of the hundreds of random people you pass on the street, or the dozens of conversations taking place in a given pub/café/restaurant you happen to walk into, then I'm sorry but I simply do not believe you. That is not a credible claim to make.

What you notice and what actually happens are two vastly different things. Your subjective experience is not the same as reality.

Imreoir2

facehugger99 wrote: »

I haven't heard Irish being spoken out and about in over 30 years.

People like yourself have done more to ensure its demise than the English ever managed.

It's a dead language being kept artificially alive only through the spunking of millions every year from the public-purse.

How do you know? People here seem to have a hugely exagerated opinion of their ability to preceive what is going on around them. I don't think it is possible that you were aware of even a fraction of the random conversations that were happening around you over the last 30 years. Perhaps I am wrong and you are all omnipitent with the ability to focus on and assess dozens of conversations at once. Do you not think there is an outside possibility that you did come accross someone speaking Irish at some point over the past 30 years, but took no notice of it at the time?

How exactly have I done anything to ensure its demise?
Perhaps you can back up your empty rethoric with a reasoned argument rather than just spouting tired crap and then running away without engaging in a discussion.

Omackeral

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Perhaps I am wrong and you are all omnipitent

Yeah, you really are wrong. And no, not everyone is all-knowing, don't know why it has to be one or the other. You don't have to be omnipotent to hear and recognise Irish being spoken. It would actually be so unusual to hear in a casual setting that you would notice. We're taught it from age 4 up until 17 or 18. We know it when we hear it. It's not as if it's Finnish and our ears aren't used to it in any capacity. Maybe just accept that others have had a different experience to you?

FunLover18

I would definitely notice Irish if I heard it being spoken as I imagine most people would, it's so rare to hear it spoken it would stand out but no of course I don't hear every conversation being spoken in my vicinity, I don't think anyone claimed they did. This is such a silly and pedantic argument that has completely derailed the thread.

Imreoir2

Omackeral wrote: »

Yeah, you really are wrong. And no, not everyone is all-knowing, don't know why it has to be one or the other. You don't have to be omnipotent to hear and recognise Irish being spoken. It would actually be so unusual to hear in a casual setting that you would notice. We're taught it from age 4 up until 17 or 18. We know it when we hear it. It's not as if it's Finnish and our ears aren't used to it in any capacity. Maybe just accept that others have had a different experience to you?

I am sure you are able to to recognise it if you hear it. That does not mean that you will always recognise it when you hear it. You are not always able to make out what people are saying even when you are fluent in the language they are speaking. The range at which you can make out what people are saying is limited, very limited when there is more than one conversation going on. If you are in a busy pub it can be hard to make out what people who talking directly to you are saying.

You would have to be all-knowing to claim to know that Irish has never been spoken around you in thirty years. You may have never noticed it, but that is a very different thing and in reality is not saying very much.

Bricriu

Irish is my first language. I live in the eastern part of the Connemara Gaeltacht in an area where direct surveys of the local population indicate that 67% of them speak Irish on a daily basis outside the education system. Further west, the figures go as high as 88%.

It is the language I express myself best in, my intellectual and emotional language, and the language I mostly dream in. I love it with all my heart and soul, it is familiar to me, and carries our native values, songs and music. It roots me in my local area as well as giving me a sense of continuity amongst my people; my ancestors have been solely Irish speaking for thousands of years.

I don’t want any special treatment or grants, but I do want my language and culture to exist and to have a future, but to have that future, I must have as many opportunities to speak it in as many areas of my life as possible. Any linguist will attest to the fact that for a language to live, it must be used regularly. But opportunities to use it are few and far between, outside of my family, friends and some of my neighbours.

Under the Language Act, I should be able to converse with an Irish speaker and conduct written correspondence with the state through Irish. In spite of legislation, that does not happen. Any time I try to locate and Irish speaker in a Government Department to conduct my business, I am fobbed off with some silly excuse, and written correspondence is usually not answered, or is delayed so much I lose heart and either write in English, or go through the Irish Language Commissioner, who relays the same well-worn excuses and empty apologies from the agencies, until I try again to conduct correspondence in Irish with the same agency in Irish, and the same hostile, tiresome, belittling, alienating circle begins again.

Recently I applied for charitable status for a company I am involved in. The process usually takes 7 months, according to the Charities Regulator; because our application was in Irish, it took 2 YEARS. No apology was given. No, one doesn't apologise to 'troublemakers' - and that is how state services see us.

The Irish Language Commissioner’s Office is just a smoke-screen as it has no power to penalise agencies that don’t provide services in Irish to those that want them. It was set up by Fianna Fáil to garner votes, and the Commissioner was given no real powers. This will make perfect sense to consumers who tried to get satisfaction from The Insurance Ombudsman or SIMI – they were set up to cod consumers into thinking they had a means of resolving problems they had with private companies; in my experience these so-called consumer protection agencies do nothing but fob one off with waffle.

In the area I live in, Planning Applications are supposed to be given only to Irish speakers, so as to protect the Irish language, but that clause is simply flouted wholescale – often with the help of local gombeen politicians. All my new neighbours are monoglot (solely) English speakers. So the language of this townland will soon be solely English speaking.

The more English spoken, the less Irish will be spoken, and children won’t learn Irish by hearing it spoken naturally in their environment. Schools are fighting an uphill battle trying to teach through Irish because so many local children are presenting with no Irish. The same deterioration happens in community, sporting and other organisations. In my local bank, service is all through English. The result of the above: huge erosion of formerly Irish-speaking areas and linguistic death.

That is the reality. English speakers tend to be ignorant of simple linguistics, and see Irish speakers as being exclusivist, cliquish and anti-democratic. We just want our language to live, but to have that chance, we have to speak, write and read it as often as possible.

I feel totally alienated from the state and would see it as the same way my ancestors saw the British state when it was in charge of Ireland – a foreign entity which is basically anti-Irish culture, and hostile to those who wish to carry on the same culture as native Irish people have done for thousands of years. Very little changed in 1922.

Imreoir2

FunLover18 wrote: »

I would definitely notice Irish if I heard it being spoken as I imagine most people would, it's so rare to hear it spoken it would stand out but no of course I don't hear every conversation being spoken in my vicinity, I don't think anyone claimed they did. This is such a silly and pedantic argument that has completely derailed the thread.

It works the other way, the brain does not notice language it does not easily understand more, it tunes it out. That does not mean that it never recognises it, but it is more likely to ignore it and only the really noticable stuff get through. The same works with text on signs, the brain focuses on the text it understands and ignores what it does not understand.

People often claim that Irish is dead becasue they don't hear it around the place. It's a claim that is based on faulty perception.

facehugger99

Bricriu wrote: »

I don’t want any special treatment or grants,

goes onto list all the special treatment they want..:rolleyes:

We're spending millions every year on this nonsense so a few hundred people can feel smug.

It's a terrible waste of finite resources.

Imreoir2

facehugger99 wrote: »

goes onto list all the special treatment they want..:rolleyes:

We're spending millions every year on this nonsense so a few hundred people can feel smug.

It's a terrible waste of finite resources.

What special treatment? Is wanting to be able to deal with the state through Irish in the same way that you can deal with the state through English "special treatment"?

Clearly the language will never be dead enough for you.

facehugger99

Imreoir2 wrote: »

What special treatment? Is wanting to be able to deal with the state through Irish in the same way that you can deal with the state through English "special treatment"?

Of course it is.

it's incredibly expensive and entirely unnecessary for the State to have to double-up its publications and provide a 2-language option.

irish speakers are more than capable of conducting their state business through English. They're just being awkward in most instances looking for an Irish option. As a taxpayer it's obscene we're wasting money on this nonsense when it could be channeled into far more worthwhile endeavors such as health, housing or any number of other more important things.

Imreoir2

facehugger99 wrote: »

Of course it is.

it's incredibly expensive and entirely unnecessary for the State to have to double-up its publications and provide a 2-language option.

irish speakers are more than capable of conducting their state business through English. They're just being awkward in most instances looking for an Irish option. As a taxpayer it's obscene we're wasting money on this nonsense when it could be channeled into far more worthwhile endeavors such as health, housing or any number of other more important things.

Ok, you are so warped in your thinking that me wanting to be treated the same in Irish as you are treated in English is the same as me wanting special treatment. :pac:

As a taxpayer it's obscene that the Irish state would force me to use English when dealing with it. It does not cost the state more to provide a service in Irish. All you need is enough staff who can speak Irish, they get the same pay and conditions as everyone else but they can serve you in English and me in Irish.

Like it or not, clearly not in your case, Ireland is a bilingual state. Untill you can win a referendum to remove Irish from the constitution you can sod off expecting Irish speakers to speak English all the time.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Imreoir2 wrote: »

What special treatment? Is wanting to be able to deal with the state through Irish in the same way that you can deal with the state through English "special treatment"?

Clearly the language will never be dead enough for you.

It is if the majority of people you want to deal with don't already speak Irish, then yes. By ask means have an outlet available if one exists, but if it doesn't then you don't get to state what language someone else speaks.

FunLover18

Bricriu wrote: »

Irish is my first language. I live in the eastern part of the Connemara Gaeltacht in an area where direct surveys of the local population indicate that 67% of them speak Irish on a daily basis outside the education system. Further west, the figures go as high as 88%.

It is the language I express myself best in, my intellectual and emotional language, and the language I mostly dream in. I love it with all my heart and soul, it is familiar to me, and carries our native values, songs and music. It roots me in my local area as well as giving me a sense of continuity amongst my people; my ancestors have been solely Irish speaking for thousands of years.

I don’t want any special treatment or grants, but I do want my language and culture to exist and to have a future, but to have that future, I must have as many opportunities to speak it in as many areas of my life as possible. Any linguist will attest to the fact that for a language to live, it must be used regularly. But opportunities to use it are few and far between, outside of my family, friends and some of my neighbours.

Under the Language Act, I should be able to converse with an Irish speaker and conduct written correspondence with the state through Irish. In spite of legislation, that does not happen. Any time I try to locate and Irish speaker in a Government Department to conduct my business, I am fobbed off with some silly excuse, and written correspondence is usually not answered, or is delayed so much I lose heart and either write in English, or go through the Irish Language Commissioner, who relays the same well-worn excuses and empty apologies from the agencies, until I try again to conduct correspondence in Irish with the same agency in Irish, and the same hostile, tiresome, belittling, alienating circle begins again.

Recently I applied for charitable status for a company I am involved in. The process usually takes 7 months, according to the Charities Regulator; because our application was in Irish, it took 2 YEARS. No apology was given. No, one doesn't apologise to 'troublemakers' - and that is how state services see us.

The Irish Language Commissioner’s Office is just a smoke-screen as it has no power to penalise agencies that don’t provide services in Irish to those that want them. It was set up by Fianna Fáil to garner votes, and the Commissioner was given no real powers. This will make perfect sense to consumers who tried to get satisfaction from The Insurance Ombudsman or SIMI – they were set up to cod consumers into thinking they had a means of resolving problems they had with private companies; in my experience these so-called consumer protection agencies do nothing but fob one off with waffle.

In the area I live in, Planning Applications are supposed to be given only to Irish speakers, so as to protect the Irish language, but that clause is simply flouted wholescale – often with the help of local gombeen politicians. All my new neighbours are monoglot (solely) English speakers. So the language of this townland will soon be solely English speaking.

The more English spoken, the less Irish will be spoken, and children won’t learn Irish by hearing it spoken naturally in their environment. Schools are fighting an uphill battle trying to teach through Irish because so many local children are presenting with no Irish. The same deterioration happens in community, sporting and other organisations. In my local bank, service is all through English. The result of the above: huge erosion of formerly Irish-speaking areas and linguistic death.

That is the reality. English speakers tend to be ignorant of simple linguistics, and see Irish speakers as being exclusivist, cliquish and anti-democratic. We just want our language to live, but to have that chance, we have to speak, write and read it as often as possible.

I feel totally alienated from the state and would see it as the same way my ancestors saw the British state when it was in charge of Ireland – a foreign entity which is basically anti-Irish culture, and hostile to those who wish to carry on the same culture as native Irish people have done for thousands of years. Very little changed in 1922.

I sympathise with you but what's your solution? In order for you to be treated as you wish and to be afforded your lawful rights, the country needs not only Irish speakers but Irish speakers who are willing to go into the jobs in which they are needed to provide services in Irish and there simply aren't the numbers required for that. It's been mandatory for Irish to studied in school up until LC for a century and it hasn't boosted the numbers, there's simply no incentive to learn or speak Irish.

fattymuatty

FunLover18 wrote: »

For some people having to study a language that has little to no practical value outside the education system for 13 years is neither lovely nor benign. Disliking the way Irish is taught and liking the language are not mutually exclusive but I can understand why people struggle to differentiate between the language and how it is taught.

If most schools were Gaelscoils then no one would have to 'study the language', you would have conversational Irish with no effort at all. My 9 year old can carry out a conversation in Irish and never once has she felt like she has had to study it.

There is this kind of reverse snobbery about Irish, you can see it on this thread. People assuming that people who speak Irish think they are better than others. I see it when people ask me what school my kids go to and I say the gaelscoil. Or there is the assumption that people send their kids to school to avoid the riffraff, when the reality(in my childrens school anyway) is there are children from all backgrounds, from all different countries, children with special needs(one of my children has autism and his best friend in school does too) and there are multiple other children with special needs.

I can't think of a reason why people would want to see the language die out, why people seem so against it? Having a second language is never useless, it is never a waste of time, there are many benefits to being bilingual and with the right education the next generation could grow up bilingual with no effort at all.

ELM327

facehugger99 wrote: »

Of course it is.

it's incredibly expensive and entirely unnecessary for the State to have to double-up its publications and provide a 2-language option.

irish speakers are more than capable of conducting their state business through English. They're just being awkward in most instances looking for an Irish option. As a taxpayer it's obscene we're wasting money on this nonsense when it could be channeled into far more worthwhile endeavors such as health, housing or any number of other more important things.

I agree
Why not make all schools gaeltachtanna and have bilingual children.

Snow Garden

Omackeral wrote: »

Yeah, you really are wrong. And no, not everyone is all-knowing, don't know why it has to be one or the other. You don't have to be omnipotent to hear and recognise Irish being spoken. It would actually be so unusual to hear in a casual setting that you would notice. We're taught it from age 4 up until 17 or 18. We know it when we hear it. It's not as if it's Finnish and our ears aren't used to it in any capacity. Maybe just accept that others have had a different experience to you?

I live in Galway and I rarely hear it. Maybe once every 3-6 months.

If I go to Spiddal or Inveran for a match, I will hear it.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Yes, the idea that nobody ever speaks Irish is nonsense. It is nonsence of the highest order.

You know well that that poster wasn’t saying that literally nobody speaks Irish daily in Ireland. They’re saying it’s rare to hear. And they are correct.

FunLover18

fattymuatty wrote: »

If most schools were Gaelscoils then no one would have to 'study the language', you would have conversational Irish with no effort at all. My 9 year old can carry out a conversation in Irish and never once has she felt like she has had to study it.

There is this kind of reverse snobbery about Irish, you can see it on this thread. People assuming that people who speak Irish think they are better than others. I see it when people ask me what school my kids go to and I say the gaelscoil. Or there is the assumption that people send their kids to school to avoid the riffraff, when the reality(in my childrens school anyway) is there are children from all backgrounds, from all different countries, children with special needs(one of my children has autism and his best friend in school does too) and there are multiple other children with special needs.

I can't think of a reason why people would want to see the language die out, why people seem so against it? Having a second language is never useless, it is never a waste of time, there are many benefits to being bilingual and with the right education the next generation could grow up bilingual with no effort at all.

I agree but I don't think I'd like every school to be a Gaelscoil for that reason. There are many benefits to being bilingual but the second languages doesn't have to be Irish. I have no problem with people wanting their children to have Irish, nor do I have a problem with children enjoying Irish, but I also understand why people would want their children to learn a second language that would be more useful outside of Ireland.

Renno123

nílim ro cinnte, ach creidim go bhfuil an teanga an-tabhtacht.
We should continue to promote the language through Gaelscoileanna and see how many people are fluent in the future.

is_that_so

FunLover18 wrote: »

I sympathise with you but what's your solution? In order for you to be treated as you wish and to be afforded your lawful rights, the country needs not only Irish speakers but Irish speakers who are willing to go into the jobs in which they are needed to provide services in Irish and there simply aren't the numbers required for that. It's been mandatory for Irish to studied in school up until LC for a century and it hasn't boosted the numbers, there's simply no incentive to learn or speak Irish.

Here ya go! Fresh off the presses.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/onefifth-of-new-recruits-to-public-sector-will-have-to-be-competent-in-irish-38772638.html