Irish Language

Imreoir2

FunLover18 wrote: »

I agree but I don't think I'd like every school to be a Gaelscoil for that reason. There are many benefits to being bilingual but the second languages doesn't have to be Irish. I have no problem with people wanting their children to have Irish, nor do I have a problem with children enjoying Irish, but I also understand why people would want their children to learn a second language that would be more useful outside of Ireland.

As far as I am aware there is nothing to stop parents setting up a French, German, Spannish etc equivilant of a Gaelscoil if they wanted one. It seems the demand just isnt there. The only reason that Gaelscoils exist is that parents went out and created them for themselves, the state has been nothing but a hinderance for decades when it comes to setting up Gaelscoils.

There are problems with the idea of just turning every school into a Gaelscoil, not least the lack of teachers with sufficient Irish, but the state should at least be active in facilitating them where demand exists. As it stands, supply is well behind the demand for them.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Bricriu wrote: »

Irish is my first language. I live in the eastern part of the Connemara Gaeltacht in an area where direct surveys of the local population indicate that 67% of them speak Irish on a daily basis outside the education system. Further west, the figures go as high as 88%.

It is the language I express myself best in, my intellectual and emotional language, and the language I mostly dream in. I love it with all my heart and soul, it is familiar to me, and carries our native values, songs and music. It roots me in my local area as well as giving me a sense of continuity amongst my people; my ancestors have been solely Irish speaking for thousands of years.

I don’t want any special treatment or grants, but I do want my language and culture to exist and to have a future, but to have that future, I must have as many opportunities to speak it in as many areas of my life as possible. Any linguist will attest to the fact that for a language to live, it must be used regularly. But opportunities to use it are few and far between, outside of my family, friends and some of my neighbours.

Under the Language Act, I should be able to converse with an Irish speaker and conduct written correspondence with the state through Irish. In spite of legislation, that does not happen. Any time I try to locate and Irish speaker in a Government Department to conduct my business, I am fobbed off with some silly excuse, and written correspondence is usually not answered, or is delayed so much I lose heart and either write in English, or go through the Irish Language Commissioner, who relays the same well-worn excuses and empty apologies from the agencies, until I try again to conduct correspondence in Irish with the same agency in Irish, and the same hostile, tiresome, belittling, alienating circle begins again.

Recently I applied for charitable status for a company I am involved in. The process usually takes 7 months, according to the Charities Regulator; because our application was in Irish, it took 2 YEARS. No apology was given. No, one doesn't apologise to 'troublemakers' - and that is how state services see us.

The Irish Language Commissioner’s Office is just a smoke-screen as it has no power to penalise agencies that don’t provide services in Irish to those that want them. It was set up by Fianna Fáil to garner votes, and the Commissioner was given no real powers. This will make perfect sense to consumers who tried to get satisfaction from The Insurance Ombudsman or SIMI – they were set up to cod consumers into thinking they had a means of resolving problems they had with private companies; in my experience these so-called consumer protection agencies do nothing but fob one off with waffle.

In the area I live in, Planning Applications are supposed to be given only to Irish speakers, so as to protect the Irish language, but that clause is simply flouted wholescale – often with the help of local gombeen politicians. All my new neighbours are monoglot (solely) English speakers. So the language of this townland will soon be solely English speaking.

The more English spoken, the less Irish will be spoken, and children won’t learn Irish by hearing it spoken naturally in their environment. Schools are fighting an uphill battle trying to teach through Irish because so many local children are presenting with no Irish. The same deterioration happens in community, sporting and other organisations. In my local bank, service is all through English. The result of the above: huge erosion of formerly Irish-speaking areas and linguistic death.

That is the reality. English speakers tend to be ignorant of simple linguistics, and see Irish speakers as being exclusivist, cliquish and anti-democratic. We just want our language to live, but to have that chance, we have to speak, write and read it as often as possible.

I feel totally alienated from the state and would see it as the same way my ancestors saw the British state when it was in charge of Ireland – a foreign entity which is basically anti-Irish culture, and hostile to those who wish to carry on the same culture as native Irish people have done for thousands of years. Very little changed in 1922.

What does the bolded bit mean?

Imreoir2

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

What does the bolded bit mean?

I'm sure the poster can answer the question themselves, but I think what they mean is that when Irish speakers do the kinds of things that you have to do to try to preserve a minority language, they get accused of all kinds of things by English speakers, most of whom do not have the first iota about contemporary language preservation and revival strategies. There is a whole field of acedemic research in socio-linguists that (at least sometimes) forms the basis of state policy on the language.

That acedemic field will tell you that if you want to keep a lanugage alive, then its speakers must be able to live their lives through that language. They must have access to education in their language, but when Irish speakers try to have eduction through Irish they are accused of being snobs, or only trying to avoid immigrants.
The text books will tell you that when you want to keep a minority language alive it is important that speakers of that language have access to media in their language, but when Irish speakers want to set up Raidió na Gaeltachta or TG4 they are accused of creating white elephants that are only jobs for the boys with their nose in the trough.

Socio-linguistics will tell you that it is vital that a minority has status, and state support, but when Irish speakers want to be able to deal with the state through Irish, they are accused of wasting money becasue they can all speak English anyway.

It goes on and on. Anything that Irish speakers want to do to preserve their language because the research and evidence tells us that you need to do those things, English speakers who have no idea about any of the research or evidence in the field just criticise and call a waste.

Omackeral

Imreoir2 wrote: »

You would have to be all-knowing to claim to know that Irish has never been spoken around you in thirty years. You may have never noticed it, but that is a very different thing and in reality is not saying very much.

I have these things called ears on the side of mo cheann. I've heard Polish most days I've been in Dublin City. I've not heard Irish to any extent that I remember. The point is you barely hear anyone speaking it. If it's been spoken with any sort of reguality, I would have heard it at one stage or another. I'm not talking about eavesdropping while a 747 takes of a few meters away. I'm on about in every day locations like the supermarket, the soft play centres and every other exciting or mundane spot you can think of. You hear people saying things, scolding their kids aloud, calling mates, having bellowing phone conversations on the bus on loudspeaker. I've rarely, if ever, heard anyone do this in Irish. If I did, I'd have picked up on it. It's not a hard concept to grasp. F*ck me!

Omackeral

facehugger99 wrote: »

it's incredibly expensive and entirely unnecessary for the State to have to double-up its publications and provide a 2-language option.

irish speakers are more than capable of conducting their state business through English. They're just being awkward in most instances looking for an Irish option. As a taxpayer it's obscene we're wasting money on this nonsense when it could be channeled into far more worthwhile endeavors such as health, housing or any number of other more important things.

I think, where possible and feasible, doing any official business through Irish should absolutely be allowed. You shouldn't be made into a pariah for wanting to deal in your native tongue. It's ours like! We're always the first to lash the English or 'de Brits' out of it but then actively turn our back on the language and go around aping their soccer teams as if they're our own. There's a bit of an irony to it but the most people hate to admit to it.

Imreoir2

Omackeral wrote: »

I have these things called ears on the side of mo ceann. I've heard Polish most days I've been in Dublin City. I've not heard Irish to any extent that I remember. The point is you barely hear anyone speaking it. If it's been spoken with any sort of reguality, I would have heard it at one stage or another. I'm not talking about eavesdropping while a 747 takes of a few meters away. I'm on about in every day locations like the supermarket, the soft play centres and every other exciting or mundane spot you can think of. You hear people saying things, scolding their kids aloud, calling mates, having bellowing phone conversations on the bus on loudspeaker. I've rarely, if ever, heard anyone do this in Irish. If I did, I'd have picked up on it. It's not a hard concept to grasp. F*ck me!

Sure, and on the other hand I know of cases of Irish speakers, with no hint of irony, being told to f*uck off back to Poland.

I'm not saying that everyone is speaking Irish all the time and that you just fail to notice it. I'm just pointing out that perception is biased and people who do not speak Irish are less likely to recognise Irish being spoken than you seem to think.

saabsaab

Maybe my ear is more tuned in to it but I've heard Irish spoken in shops cafes bars in Dublin, Galway and Cork fairly often.

FunLover18

Jesus, can we not just agree that people will have heard Irish spoken at varying degrees of frequency.

Omackeral

Imreoir2 wrote: »

I'm not saying that everyone is speaking Irish all the time and that you just fail to notice it. I'm just pointing out that perception is biased and people who do not speak Irish are less likely to recognise Irish being spoken than you seem to think.

Right, except that myself and others on here who do have a grasp have seldom, if ever, hear it spoken out and about. We can go around and around on this.

Huntergonzo

No interest in irish personally, to me language is purely a method of communication, I don't feel any emotional attachment to any particular language.

saabsaab

Remember some years back seeing two old ladies looking at the 'Nollaig Shona' sign hanging across Grafton Street one says to the other 'look at dat they put the Christmas sign up for the Polish'

careless sherpa

Huntergonzo wrote: »

No interest in irish personally, to me language is purely a method of communication, I don't feel any emotional attachment to any particular language.

You are not putting much importance on the means of communication then. Maybe have a little think about that

Huntergonzo

careless sherpa wrote: »

You are not putting much importance on the means of communication then. Maybe have a little think about that

Not sure what you mean mate, could you elaborate?

Tony EH

The only time I ever hear Irish spoken, for more than a word or two, is on the television.

Graces7

Not true in many areas.

Try the Dingle peninsula to hear it as a living, working language . I was to Mass at Ballydavid; it was entirely in Irish. Afterwards I stayed to meet some of the folk, and they were bringing their little ones into a bi-lingual life. Everything was named in Irish then translated. Irish first. Lovely to hear it / Totally natural

On the other side! Was in I think Glencolumcille chatting to a man who was the local Irish language expert. When someone came in he started talking to them in Irish knowing we could not understand. Impolite..and artificial .

And it did not sound like when it was spoken in real Irish places!

Tony EH wrote: »

Irish is dying. It's on life support and has been for years. People who love the language need to learn to reason with that reality and stop trying to fool themselves, and others into a false belief that it's a thriving language.

It isn't.

Most of the people in this country pursue it as a dilettante activity and they speak it badly, with a child's level of conversation and, worse than that, there are others who use it as a way to look down their noses at people that don't speak it <- the worst type of Gaelgoir tosspot.

There are few people who pursue the learning of the language for reasons of purely learning the once mother tongue of the nation. I have only met several people who are absolutely fluent in the language that understand that it's an academic interest that gives them personal joy, but that it will never be spoken in any way near approaching a main language again.

Tony EH

Graces7 wrote: »

Not true in many areas.

It's true for the country as a whole though. Outside of small enclaves, it's practically non-existent.

Reati

Wow has it been that long already that it's time for another circular Irish language thread where people "with no problem with Irish but" tell us all the problems they have with have the language? Time flies.

Looking forward to reading more classics like, it's the way it's taught, Peig, we spend trillions on it, shur no one speaks it anyway, we should all learning <insert foreign language>, it's a dying language...

Sorry about that

The lack of respect some of our own people have for our beautiful unique language, is incredible. I can’t imagine any other nation where it’s citizens would bay for it’s obliteration, in the belief that it’s not as useful as the language of another country. Spoken here since the 13th century, but because education has been inadequate in the past few generations, rather than reform, “get rid”.
Really depressing reading some of the opinions here. What a shame.

CelticRambler

Tony EH wrote: »

The only time I ever hear Irish spoken, for more than a word or two, is on the television.

You need to get out more!

Last time I heard Irish spoken was in Paris; the time before that, in Turkey; also heard it being spoken in Germany and the US.

Graces7

Tony EH wrote: »

It's true for the country as a whole though. Outside of small enclaves, it's practically non-existent.

How many rural areas do you know? Folk here in West Mayo are bilingual . including young ones. . It surprised me too when I was first here. Because they always speak English to me of course.

I was on the ferry one day when an islands official was visiting and she and the ferryman were speaking Irish, changing when they spoke to me .

Of course when you speak English as a visitor they will politely reply in like. But their native tongue is Irish and that includes young ones.

Do not be too eager to write your native language off. Far from dead. very far.

On this our different experiences will see us differing but far from a "few enclaves"!

Graces7

Sorry about that wrote: »

The lack of respect some of our own people have for our beautiful unique language, is incredible. I can’t imagine any other nation where it’s citizens would bay for it’s obliteration, in the belief that it’s not as useful as the language of another country. Spoken here since the 13th century, but because education has been inadequate in the past few generations, rather than reform, “get rid”.
Really depressing reading some of the opinions here. What a shame.

Agree totally . But see my other posts.

jimgoose

Graces7 wrote: »

How many rural areas do you know? Folk here in West Mayo are bilingual . including young ones. . It surprised me too when I was first here. Because they always speak English to me of course...

The Ballyvourney Gaeltacht area is about 40 minutes from Cork City, not exactly remote.

Edgware

saabsaab wrote: »

Maybe my ear is more tuned in to it but I've heard Irish spoken in shops cafes bars in Dublin, Galway and Cork fairly often.

Probably Nuacht was on the radio

facehugger99

CelticRambler wrote: »

You need to get out more!

Last time I heard Irish spoken was in Paris; the time before that, in Turkey; also heard it being spoken in Germany and the US.

You need to get away from the Irish pubs when you go abroad and experience some of the local culture instead.

careless sherpa

Graces7 wrote: »

Not true in many areas.

Try the Dingle peninsula to hear it as a living, working language . I was to Mass at Ballydavid; it was entirely in Irish. Afterwards I stayed to meet some of the folk, and they were bringing their little ones into a bi-lingual life. Everything was named in Irish then translated. Irish first. Lovely to hear it / Totally natural

On the other side! Was in I think Glencolumcille chatting to a man who was the local Irish language expert. When someone came in he started talking to them in Irish knowing we could not understand. Impolite..and artificial .

And it did not sound like when it was spoken in real Irish places!

Glencolumcille is a gaeltacht area

CelticRambler

facehugger99 wrote: »

You need to get away from the Irish pubs when you go abroad and experience some of the local culture instead.

I think I have been in a grand total of seven Irish pubs in my lifetime, seven of those being pubs in Ireland. I don't remember hearing anyone speaking Irish there, but then I'd have to dredge through about thirty years' worth of memories to be sure about that.

FWIW, I've heard more people speaking Breton and Occitan in recent years, both languages undergoing a bit of a resurgence here in France. Funny that, isn't it? People wanting to speak the language of their own region ... :rolleyes:

stratowide

Don't really have an opinion on the merits of the language..I'm like meh whatever.

Can only say that I did my leaving cert in 1987 and in the 32 intervening years I've never heard the Irish language spoken in day to day conversation. Not once ever.

I've been all over this country through work and and social gatherings and have spoken to thousands of people down the years.

Funny thing is when I hear it on TG4 or whatever I can get the gist of what's being said.Mad really.

Always sorry I didn't take Spanish or French in school though.

whisky_galore

CelticRambler wrote: »

Funny that, isn't it? People wanting to speak the language of their own region ... :rolleyes:

Funny that, people not wanting to.

It's a free country.

Tony EH

Graces7 wrote: »

How many rural areas do you know?

I have, during my lifetime, been over most of this country and sure you might overhear it spoken here and there. BUT, the point is that for the VAST majority of the nation its is not spoken in general, apart from a few small areas.

The premier language on this island is English, by a very large degree.

That's not based on wants or wishes. That's just a fact.

Graces7 wrote: »

Do not be too eager to write your native language off. Far from dead. very far.

I never said anything about "dead". I said it's on life support.

Deiseen

Not wanting to embrace the language is fine, it's a free country. But a lot on here seem ready to go out of their way to stop Irish from ever developing further. That's just not right.

I am rubbish at Irish, absolutely terrible, I'm bad at languages in general. However, I will never ever go out of my way to discourage any measure relating to the promotion of our language. I won't force it on my kids but I hope I can convey the importance of it and they will do a better job of embracing it than I have.

People keep stating that its unused and should not be promoted. How it can it ever be used more if we are not willing to try? I guaran-feckin-tee you that if a prober job was done of promoting our language, and it did manage to get a decent foothold, then future generations would be shocked that we almost lost it and even more shocked that some people wanted it to die.

We really do hate ourselves sometimes.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Deiseen wrote: »

Not wanting to embrace the language is fine, it's a free country. But a lot on here seem ready to go out of their way to stop Irish from ever developing further. That's just not right.

I am rubbish at Irish, absolutely terrible, I'm bad at languages in general. However, I will never ever go out of my way to discourage any measure relating to the promotion of our language. I won't force it on my kids but I hope I can convey the importance of it and they will do a better job of embracing it than I have.

People keep stating that its unused and should not be promoted. How it can it ever be used more if we are not willing to try? I guaran-feckin-tee you that if a prober job was done of promoting our language, and it did manage to get a decent foothold, then future generations would be shocked that we almost lost it and even more shocked that some people wanted it to die.

We really do hate ourselves sometimes.

"We"?

Speak for yourself.

facehugger99

Deiseen wrote: »

future generations would be shocked that we almost lost it and even more shocked that some people wanted it to die.

I don't believe future generations have voted you to be their spokesperson.

Their far more likely to be concerned with more pressing matters. If they think about the Irish language at all it will likely be with a sense of bemusement that so much money and time was invested in such a folly.

Imreoir2

Tony EH wrote: »

I never said anything about "dead". I said it's on life support.

What does this actually mean? The Irish language gets state funding and the position of the language would be worse without the funding, but this is true of just about everything. Is the health service on life support, or the education system? How about sports or the arts, they get plenty of state support, much much more than the language infact, and you can be damm sure that they would suffer greatly if state funding was withdrawn.

What is it about Irish that makes you reach for life support metaphors?

Deiseen

facehugger99 wrote: »

I don't believe future generations have voted you to be their spokesperson.

Their far more likely to be concerned with more pressing matters. If they think about the Irish language at all it will likely be with a sense of bemusement that so much money and time was invested in such a folly.

Do we need to cease all other activities in order to promote Irish? Can we not strive to do these things while also giving our native tongue a fair chance?

We also have a perfect modern example with Hebrew of what could be achieved with the Irish language.

Hebrew was a dead language and is now spoken fluently by almost 10 million people.

What use is it outside of the Jewish community or Israel? Almost none but you know what, they are extremely proud of their language and could not imagine losing it, which they almost did.

Imreoir2

facehugger99 wrote: »

I don't believe future generations have voted you to be their spokesperson.

Their far more likely to be concerned with more pressing matters. If they think about the Irish language at all it will likely be with a sense of bemusement that so much money and time was invested in such a folly.

Do you think the French would look with a sense of bemusement at expenditure on ensuring the survival of French as the language of France, or would they be astounded at the idea that they would ever allow French to decline and die to be replace by another language?

The English constantly congratulate themselves on their victory in two world wars which ensured that future generations would be speaking English and not German, and yet we are expected to accept the replacement of our language without even wondering why our language should be killed off.

It seems to me that most people find it natural to want to protect their national language and insure its continued use into the future, and yet we Irish are expected to facilitate the death of our own language. I must say the reason that we should want to do this escapes me.

facehugger99

Deiseen wrote: »

Do we need to cease all other activities in order to promote Irish? Can we not strive to do these things while also giving our native tongue a fair chance?

We also have a perfect modern example with Hebrew of what could be achieved with the Irish language.

Hebrew was a dead language and is now spoken fluently by almost 10 million people.

What use is it outside of the Jewish community or Israel? Almost none but you know what, they are extremely proud of their language and could not imagine losing it, which they almost did.

I couldn't care less about Hebrew - my taxes don't fund it.

Let the hobbyists study and speak Irish. Wasting hours of our children's education and millions of our tax resources propping up something that most people couldn't care less about is a colossal waste.

saabsaab

facehugger99 wrote: »

I couldn't care less about Hebrew - my taxes don't fund it.

Let the hobbyists study and speak Irish. Wasting hours of our children's education and millions of our tax resources propping up something that most people couldn't care less about is a colossal waste.

The point of this poll is to see what people think - too early to make such a claim.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Imreoir2 wrote: »

What does this actually mean? The Irish language gets state funding and the position of the language would be worse without the funding, but this is true of just about everything. Is the health service on life support, or the education system? How about sports or the arts, they get plenty of state support, much much more than the language infact, and you can be damm sure that they would suffer greatly if state funding was withdrawn.

What is it about Irish that makes you reach for life support metaphors?

Nope because they'd still exist. Irish would die within a generation or two if state funding was pulled. (Just to be clear: I'm not agreeing with the idea. In fact, Id be steadfast against this.)

Tony EH

Imreoir2 wrote: »

What does this actually mean?

It means it not dead, but certainly isn't thriving as a national language in the majority of the country.

It isn't difficult to understand.

Omackeral

saabsaab wrote: »

The point of this poll is to see what people think - too early to make such a claim.

Be great if we could actually see the poxy thing!

facehugger99

saabsaab wrote: »

The point of this poll is to see what people think - too early to make such a claim.

A Boards poll? :rolleyes:

The proof of my point in already evident - the vast majority of the population would struggle to string a sentence together beyond asking to go to the toilet. There's no interest in it beyond lip-service. Better to let it die and spend the money on something useful instead.

saabsaab

facehugger99 wrote: »

A Boards poll? :rolleyes:

The proof of my point in already evident - the vast majority of the population would struggle to string a sentence together beyond asking to go to the toilet. There's no interest in it beyond lip-service. Better to let it die and spend the money on something useful instead.

Don't knock the poll, quite a few have seen this poll and it should give a fair idea of how it would be nationally. National polls have been done before and I'd say it will be consistent with them.

FunLover18

If you want to talk poll results, here's the ESRI study on attitudes to the Irish language on the island of Ireland.

https://www.esri.ie/news/new-study-shows-that-while-attitudes-towards-the-irish-language-are-broadly-positive-this-does-not-translate-into-significant-use-of-the-language

Upforthematch

Interesting study - here are some highlighted results

Government does too little (ROI 37 per cent; NI 29 per cent)

governments should give the greatest attention to teaching the Irish language well to school-going children (ROI: 53 per cent; NI: 34 per cent).

the most desired outcome is that the country should remain bilingual, with English as the principal language (ROI: 43 per cent; NI: 34 per cent).

Very few indicated that the Irish language should be
disregarded and forgotten (ROI: 1 per cent; NI: 8 per cent)

A small minority of adults across the island of Ireland (ROI: 15%; NI: 11%) have tried to learn/improve their Irish as adults.

Sounds about right. Sounds like the school is where the focus is too.

Can Ireland even claim to "remain bilingual" if Irish isn't kept as a core subject in schools on a par with English?

Snow Garden

It's shambolic that Sinn Fein will not reopen Stormont at a crucial time in NI politics because of the Irish language.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Upforthematch wrote: »

Interesting study - here are some highlighted results



Sounds about right. Sounds like the school is where the focus is too.

Can Ireland even claim to "remain bilingual" if Irish isn't kept as a core subject in schools on a par with English?

If it's bilingual now, then yes.

If by bilingual you mean everyone, then no. But then that's not the case now.

Imreoir2

Snow Garden wrote: »

It's shambolic that Sinn Fein will not reopen Stormont at a crucial time in NI politics because of the Irish language.

Far more shambolic that the DUP are keeping Stormount closed rather than allow an Irish Language Act that was promised in the GFA and St Andrews, and which would bring NI into line with other parts of the UK in terms of language protections.

The DUP have a terrible track record of treating the language like a punching bag, its about time they got their act together and make concessions to ensure that all sides are shown respect in NI. They are quick enough to cause uproar at any and every perceived attack on orange culture and yet are only delighted to dish out insult after insult to the other side.

saabsaab

Poll is now closed.



The interesting aspect for me was how many were actively anti-Irish language. I can understand those who are not bothered but to wish it ill will is another thing entirely. Those of this opinion are a small but significant minority and I feel that this has little to do with education and people of this mentality have been around since the beginning of the Irish State.

The poll I believe would be representative of the opinions held by the general public.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

saabsaab wrote: »

Poll is now closed.



The interesting aspect for me was how many were actively anti-Irish language. I can understand those who are not bothered but to wish it ill will is another thing entirely. Those of this opinion are a small but significant minority and I feel that this has little to do with education and people of this mentality have been around since the beginning of the Irish State.

The poll I believe would be representative of the opinions held by the general public.

What, 12%? Hardly significant at all!

whisky_galore

I'd be more interested in a poll of those who are actively doing something vs those simply paying lip service.