Checkpoints

pablo128

I see in the news there was checkpoints in the Cork area where the Gardai were accompanied by social welfare people. Apparently they found some people who were working and claiming welfare at the same time.

My question is, do you have to provide your details to these social welfare people at a checkpoint? I work full time and don't claim the dole, although I am currently out after an operation so am on illness benefit for the next few weeks.

I've no issue giving my details to the Gardai. If they provide my details to social welfare, fair enough. I just wouldn't want to be quizzed on the side of the road by some random fella or girl with a hi vis and a clipboard from the social welfare.

meathstevie

pablo128 wrote: »

I see in the news there was checkpoints in the Cork area where the Gardai were accompanied by social welfare people. Apparently they found some people who were working and claiming welfare at the same time.

My question is, do you have to provide your details to these social welfare people at a checkpoint? I work full time and don't claim the dole, although I am currently out after an operation so am on illness benefit for the next few weeks.

I've no issue giving my details to the Gardai. If they provide my details to social welfare, fair enough. I just wouldn't want to be quizzed on the side of the road by some random fella or girl with a hi vis and a clipboard from the social welfare.

It is within the remit of the Department of Social Protection to deal with welfare fraud. They have people dedicated full time to deal with fraud investigation and recovery.

They have no authority to stop vehicles as far as I know which is why they team up with Gardaí. Once a vehicle is lawfully stopped there’s no reason why the Welfare people wouldn’t be able to make a few reasonable enquiries.

Darc19

If you are obviously not working they won't ask for details.

However if you are in a van with overalls on, they may ask for your pps number and can check immediately if you are claiming.

pablo128

On my way to and from work I would be wearing workwear in my private car so it would be obvious I am indeed working. I understand they have to clamp down on fraud, but am I legally obliged to give my details and pps number to them at the side of the road?

171170

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057506467



(16) A social welfare inspector may, for the purposes of ensuring compliance with this Act, if accompanied by a member of the Garda Síochána in uniform—

(a) stop any vehicle which he or she reasonably suspects is used in the course of employment or self-employment, and

(b) on production of his or her certificate of appointment, where so requested, question and make enquiries of any person in the vehicle or require that person to give to the social welfare inspector any record relating to his or her employment or self-employment which the person has possession of in the vehicle, and examine it.

From: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2005/act/26/section/250/enacted/en/html

pablo128

171170 wrote: »

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057506467



(16) A social welfare inspector may, for the purposes of ensuring compliance with this Act, if accompanied by a member of the Garda Síochána in uniform—

(a) stop any vehicle which he or she reasonably suspects is used in the course of employment or self-employment, and

(b) on production of his or her certificate of appointment, where so requested, question and make enquiries of any person in the vehicle or require that person to give to the social welfare inspector any record relating to his or her employment or self-employment which the person has possession of in the vehicle, and examine it.

From: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2005/act/26/section/250/enacted/en/html

Jaysus. I forgot I even posted in that thread. Anyway I went through the whole thread there, and I still don't have a definitive answer.

How can a private car be used for business purposes anyway. And sure I wouldn't have anything in the car relating to work anyway.

sundodger5

what constitutes reasonable suspicion?

171170

sundodger5 wrote: »

what constitutes reasonable suspicion?

That's what barristers earn fees of €2,000 guineas a day or more to thrash out - and you want me to tell you for nothing! :eek:


Send me some large quantities of money and I'll be delighted to reply.

Credit Checker Moose

I'll save you some money.

Reasonable suspicion= Van, overalls, travelling at commuter times.

sundodger5

171170 wrote: »

That's what barristers earn fees of €2,000 guineas a day or more to thrash out - and you want me to tell you for nothing! :eek:


Send me some large quantities of money and I'll be delighted to reply.

Maybe i am in the wrong gig, because that was the hole i saw in the wording of that piece of legislation. Hence my question

171170

sundodger5 wrote: »

Maybe i am in the wrong gig, because that was the hole i saw in the wording of that piece of legislation. Hence my question

My answer remains available - but only if the price is right!

hullaballoo

Have been working as a barrister for 10 years and desperately need to know right now where I go to claim my €7,300,000 guineas please.

Discodog

Credit Checker Moose wrote: »

I'll save you some money.

Reasonable suspicion= Van, overalls, travelling at commuter times.

And about to help a friend with their house ?

Berserker5

I'd say it's more scare tactics than anything

Theres nothing proven if you have a few tools and overalls

Work Van would be suspicious but most cheats would be using a car

IAMAMORON

Darc19 wrote: »

If you are obviously not working they won't ask for details.

However if you are in a van with overalls on, they may ask for your pps number and can check immediately if you are claiming.

They still cannot prove shight. You can be unemployed and driving a van wearing overalls.

IAMAMORON

pablo128 wrote: »

I see in the news there was checkpoints in the Cork area where the Gardai were accompanied by social welfare people. Apparently they found some people who were working and claiming welfare at the same time.

My question is, do you have to provide your details to these social welfare people at a checkpoint? I work full time and don't claim the dole, although I am currently out after an operation so am on illness benefit for the next few weeks.

I've no issue giving my details to the Gardai. If they provide my details to social welfare, fair enough. I just wouldn't want to be quizzed on the side of the road by some random fella or girl with a hi vis and a clipboard from the social welfare.

Can you provide a link for this?

I just doubt that a social welfare officer would be able to follow a Garda checkpoint with such questioning? It does not make sense.

It is more likely that the Gards have accompanied a social welfare officer on an investigation into a suspected fraud?

The Gards have the authority to stop and breathalyse you, but I would not be so sure they can demand your PPs number on the spot?

" Sorry Gard, I haven't got it with me "

pablo128

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Can you provide a link for this?

I just doubt that a social welfare officer would be able to follow a Garda checkpoint with such questioning? It does not make sense.

It is more likely that the Gards have accompanied a social welfare officer on an investigation into a suspected fraud?

The Gards have the authority to stop and breathalyse you, but I would not be so sure they can demand your PPs number on the spot?

" Sorry Gard, I haven't got it with me "

https://www.corkbeo.ie/news/local-news/dole-cheats-caught-multi-agency-17408851

IAMAMORON

pablo128 wrote: »

https://www.corkbeo.ie/news/local-news/dole-cheats-caught-multi-agency-17408851

Investigators from the Department of Social Protection are joining multi-agency checkpoints on Cork roads to look out for social welfare fraud.
During one major operation this week, three people were detected working while they were also claiming welfare.
And further operations are expected into the New Year as the Department of Social Protection seeks to use the presence of multi-agency checkpoints as a "deterrent" for those tempted to work and claim at the same time.
The three men were detected at multi-agency checkpoints in West Cork earlier this week that saw Department of Social Protection Officers accompany multiple Gardaí units along with officers from Customs and Revenue, Cork County Council-Environmental Protection Unit and Road Safety Authority Members.
A spokesperson for the Department of Social Welfare told CorkBeo that Multi-Agency checkpoints are seen as both a means of detection and a deterrent in the fight against welfare fraud.
“As part of a number of initiatives to detect and prevent fraud and abuse of the social welfare system, the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection participates in Multi Agency Vehicle Checks (MAVCs) on an ongoing basis throughout the country," they said.


It reads like garbage to me if I am honest. They snared 3 men. It would not surprise me if they were in the same van and I am not going to speculate who they were, but the Gards probably knew them.

I doubt the Dept of Social Welfare have the resources to be carrying out such random investigations.

If they quoted who the spokesman was I would believe the article, but I am struggling with it to be honest. Under what legislation are they allowed to be involved in random checkpoints ? That is the question.

As I posted earlier all they have to say is that they don't have their number and that they are not working. It is impossible to prove after that.

Now if you are driving a taxi ….

4068ac1elhodqr

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Now if you are driving a taxi ….

...26 out of 110 taxi folks at one single night of checkpoints, were found be not just at welfare fraud, but a whole rap sheet of other stuff: sham marriges, illegal migration & document fraud (non-eu), obtaining PSV licences incorrectly or using false IDs, and of course likely tax evasion (cash takings) and so on...

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/sham-marriages-many-foreign-taxi-drivers-involved-garda-suspects-1.3588034

23.64% really isn't a bad hit rate at all.

IAMAMORON

Emmie Gray Plan wrote: »

...26 out of 110 taxi folks at one single night of checkpoints, were found be not just at welfare fraud, but a whole rap sheet of other stuff: sham marriges, illegal migration & document fraud (non-eu), obtaining PSV licences incorrectly or using false IDs, and of course likely tax evasion (cash takings) and so on...

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/sham-marriages-many-foreign-taxi-drivers-involved-garda-suspects-1.3588034

23.64% really isn't a bad hit rate at all.

You would have the admire their tenacity in fairness.

I have no problem with a non EU coming here to work in fairness, if it means he needs to bend the rules to get himself a license and he has the neck to do it I think fair play.

It must also be said that there is a big difference in the Gards reefing 30 odd foreign nationals ( allegedly foreign ) and actual deportations. I have read the article and if I am honest it reads like right wing scaremongering, not my type of journalism.

Some of the drivers were found to be fraudulently claiming social welfare though working. In some cases, on-the-spot fines were issued to other for various breaches of PSV regulations.

Papers never ever refused ink.

4068ac1elhodqr

IAMAMORON wrote: »

You would have to admire their 'tenacity' in fairness.

Tenacity = illegal entry, fraud, tax-evasion, organised criminal lawlessness.
You 'admire' this? I don't. You also consider it 'fair' behaviour?
Interesting, can't say many would share this 'admiration' as you call it.

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I have no problem with a non EU coming here to 'work' in fairness,

Again, you have 'no problem' with illegal entry, fraud, welfare cheating and the cash-in-hand focused black market, work, which won't ever contribute to any tax take, these lads hardly submit an 'end of year tax-return' do they.
Interesting, again.

IAMAMORON wrote: »

if it means he needs to bend the rules to get himself a license and he has the neck to do it I think fair play.

'Bend' as in act illegally you approve of (breaking) 'rules'?
The black market of illegal taxis, and higher up criminal networks usually involving people trafficking. Fair play?
Interesting, yet again.

IAMAMORON wrote: »

It must also be said that there is a big difference in the Gards reefing 30 odd foreign nationals ( allegedly foreign ) and actual deportations.

Read the article. Non-EU (so foreign, by default). Dozens using organised sham marriges as an entry route to this black market. Correct only a few may well get deported, there's the appeal system and plenty of opportunities to dissapear back into the underground and reappear with a new taxi.

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I have read the article and if I am honest it reads like right wing scaremongering, not my type of journalism.

You've read the article? From the Irish Times? (among many others) are not you're type. What is you're type of mainstream journalism exactly if not the mass reporting of this operation.
You seem to be saying the simple report (standard lift from a Guarda Press Release) of Operation Vantage (carried out by the Guards) was a right-wing action, or some sort of fake news perhaps?

Very strange, and again... very interesting.

Gremlinertia

Multi agency, three people detected.. Doesn't seem like a viable operation to start with, this focus on what is minutiae in financial terms is IMHO a deflection from the bigger issues regarding tax compliance etc

4068ac1elhodqr

The headline was: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/sham-marriages-many-foreign-taxi-drivers-involved-garda-suspects-1.3588034

Sham marriages: Many foreign taxi drivers involved, Garda suspects
Of 110 drivers stopped at Garda checkpoint, 26 thought to be linked to sham marriages

... As many as one in four foreign national taxi drivers stopped at recent illegal immigration checkpoints are suspected of having entered into sham marriages, gardaí believe.
During an operation in May, established to coincide with an Ed Sheeran concert in Phoenix Park, Dublin, some 110 drivers were stopped.

Of those, 26 are believed to have paid to marry a woman from Europe they had never met so they could secure the right to reside and work in the Republic, according to gardaí.
All of the men are from outside the EU and gardaí have already revoked the immigration status they had secured when they married European women in the Republic.

and so on...

4068ac1elhodqr

Gremlinertia wrote: »

Multi agency, three people detected.. Doesn't seem like a viable operation to start with,....

In this case, all they would have to do is check Taxis as before:

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/update-gardai-confirm-numbers-arrested-in-dublin-taxi-scam-909026.html
Gardaí have confirmed that immigration permissions have been revoked from 55 people

Gremlinertia

Emmie Gray Plan wrote: »

In this case, all they would have to do is check Taxis as before:

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/update-gardai-confirm-numbers-arrested-in-dublin-taxi-scam-909026.html
Gardaí have confirmed that immigration permissions have been revoked from 55 people

Ah I understand, my mistake. I misunderstood the aim of some checkpoints obviously, can ignore my posts.

The pigeon man

So from what I can understand the welfare officer must be accompanied by a Garda. Also they must form a reasonable suspicion that the vehicle is being used in the course of employment.

So it looks like this reasonable suspicion would be almost important to form with a private vehicle?

Also it says that they make inquiries of anyone "in" the vehicle. So cycling to work seems to be the clear way to circumvent this law as you are on a bike and not "in" it.

IAMAMORON

Emmie Gray Plan wrote: »

Tenacity = illegal entry, fraud, tax-evasion, organised criminal lawlessness.
You 'admire' this? I don't. You also consider it 'fair' behaviour?
Interesting, can't say many would share this 'admiration' as you call it.

99 times out of 100 such people are doing their upmost to create a better future for themselves. They are bending the law but I would not classify them as being criminals. They are just trying to carve out a living. I admire that.

Emmie Gray Plan wrote: »

Again, you have 'no problem' with illegal entry, fraud, welfare cheating and the cash-in-hand focused black market, work, which won't ever contribute to any tax take, these lads hardly submit an 'end of year tax-return' do they.
Interesting, again.

You are making assumptions based on the article, which as I alluded to before had an uncomfortable right wing tone to it. I don't assume that everyone that enters the EU illegally is a criminal, to assume so is highly bigoted.

Emmie Gray Plan wrote: »

'Bend' as in act illegally you approve of (breaking) 'rules'?
The black market of illegal taxis, and higher up criminal networks usually involving people trafficking. Fair play?
Interesting, yet again.

Now you are basically scaremongering. It is the responsibility of the taxi regulator to regulate the industry. As I said if someone is operating a " fake taxi" , ( no pun intended:p) I would assume they are driving customers around? What else are they doing? People trafficking is a fact of life, I don't think the Gards arresting some travellers in Cork and accusing them of social welfare fraud is really tackling the problem, in fairness.

Emmie Gray Plan wrote: »

Read the article. Non-EU (so foreign, by default). Dozens using organised sham marriges as an entry route to this black market. Correct only a few may well get deported, there's the appeal system and plenty of opportunities to dissapear back into the underground and reappear with a new taxi.

I went to college with decent good Irish people who got " married " to get their Greencards. They are now US citizens and pay their taxes, not everyone who plays the system is a con artist or a criminal.

Emmie Gray Plan wrote: »

You've read the article? From the Irish Times? (among many others) are not you're type. What is you're type of mainstream journalism exactly if not the mass reporting of this operation.
You seem to be saying the simple report (standard lift from a Guarda Press Release) of Operation Vantage (carried out by the Guards) was a right-wing action, or some sort of fake news perhaps?

Very strange, and again... very interesting.

All the papers are fine. I just felt that the tone of the article was very right wing and you can do anything with statistics. If you read between the lines of the article it was casting a very dark shadow on illegal emigration. The only thing sinister about it is that it is technically illegal. But there is rarely anything illegal about the immigrants themselves, this needs to be recognised.

If you can't disassociate yourself from a dysfunctional system then you are going to suffer its' consequences. Just because the EU and Ireland have immigration laws it does not mean that people trying to break them are bad people. These people are just trying to get ahead.

We are slightly off topic at this point. I actually think there is scope to say that the article from the Corkbeo Website could be seen as being fake news, just saying.

4068ac1elhodqr

IAMAMORON wrote: »

They are bending the law but I would not classify them as being criminals.

Bending (breaking in this case) the law, is not illegal. Well this is new.

IAMAMORON wrote: »

You are making assumptions based on the article, which as I alluded to before had an uncomfortable right wing tone to it. I don't assume that everyone that enters the EU illegally is a criminal, to assume so is highly bigoted.

The article (that all) the papers reported on was lifted from a standard press release, thus any 'tone' is your conspiracy theory alone. Not more general 'entering' of the EU (which is a broad issue). This was about illegal taxi drivers, and the directly linked cases of sham marriges, which was exposed. Which guess what: yes, both are illegal.

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Now you are basically scaremongering. It is the responsibility of the taxi regulator to regulate the industry.

Now you are basically turning a blind eye to a serious issue. Even London won't allow Uber to run there, due to real-world concerns of criminality and passenger safety. The taxi regulator here when presented with fake documentation requires other agencies to verify, and such was the case. And such was the very high percentile of cases.

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I went to college with decent good Irish people who got " married " to get their Greencards. They are now US citizens and pay their taxes, not everyone who plays the system is a con artist or a criminal.

Ah whataboutery from the 1980's, cool story. They may pay taxes now (if not removed since), but didn't upon and after arrival. Show up at JFK (today) with a set of bricklaying tools, and see how well it goes.

IAMAMORON wrote: »

All the papers are fine. I just felt that the tone of the article was very right wing and you can do anything with statistics.

As per conspiracy above, your feelings seem to have got in the way of clear, reported and presented facts, sorry.

IAMAMORON wrote: »

... it does not mean that people trying to break them [law] are bad people.

Robin Hood was a jolly good fellow, modern criminal gangs, well, not so much.

Agree, it's a bit off the topic now. Simply saying if they wanted to discover welfare fraud (and other related activity): Then simply do more taxi checks, visit a few nailbars, eyebrow stalls or carwashing joints, and so on, (rather than bothering everyday commuters).

lawred2

pablo128 wrote: »

On my way to and from work I would be wearing workwear in my private car so it would be obvious I am indeed working. I understand they have to clamp down on fraud, but am I legally obliged to give my details and pps number to them at the side of the road?

So you're not out after an operation then? You're working and claiming illness benefit?

pablo128

lawred2 wrote: »

So you're not out after an operation then? You're working and claiming illness benefit?

I said I 'would' be wearing workwear, not I 'am' wearing workwear.

I do intend going back to work after my recovery period. For now, I'm kinda enjoying the whole of December and into January off. And the missus can't even nag me to do anything around the house either. No heavy lifting for 6 weeks.:pac:

Del2005

Discodog wrote: »

And about to help a friend with their house ?

That's still working while claiming.

Is voluntary work still banned for people claiming as they are supposed to be available for work?

Berserker5

Del2005 wrote: »

That's still working while claiming.

?

It's not if it's genuine

Del2005

Berserker5 wrote: »

It's not if it's genuine

Try giving that line to an immigration officer when trying to get into a country where you need a work permit and you don't have a work permit.

Berserker5

Del2005 wrote: »

Try giving that line to an immigration officer when trying to get into a country where you need a work permit and you don't have a work permit.

Wut